Part 6
To a considerable extent?—Yes, and have been for some time.
How many horses have you?—More than a hundred.
Your attention has of course been directed to the state of the road between Newbury and London?—Yes.
State any improvement that has taken place in that road?—There is a very great improvement between Marlborough and Twyford.
Under whose directions?—Mr. MᶜAdam.
In what state was that road before?—It was in a very bad state, and I mentioned it to lord Aylesbury, and he applied to get the materials, and offered to give up any quantity of his land for the widening of the road, which he has done.
In point of fact the road has been widened?—Much widened and much improved.
Can you state what improvement it would make in the draught of the carriages?—Not exactly, but I consider it a very great one.
You cannot state any proportion of the labour of horses in drawing a carriage?—No, not particularly so; I did not expect to be asked, but it is not very material.
In what state is that road, compared with the road from Twyford to London?—I consider the road from Twyford to be a little mended, but it is very bad at present.
Do you think by the adoption of the same system the road from Twyford to London might be equally improved?—I have no doubt of it; the materials are better.
Which of course would make a great difference in the ease of working your coaches?—Yes; I should think we could perform the journey from Newbury to Reading in a quarter of an hour’s less time, which is seventeen miles.
Have you, as proprietor of mail coaches, had occasion to express any dissatisfaction to the Post Office, with regard to your present contracts?—Certainly, with very great reason.
Do you think that you should be enabled to continue those contracts at the present rate, if the roads are not put into a better state of repair?—That entirely depends upon the price of corn; we were very great sufferers till lately, that corn has fallen so much: or else my brother, as well as myself, intended to quit the mails, because we were losing a great deal of money.
Do you consider that the system of repairing roads, which has been adopted in that part of the road which you have described as under the superintendance of Mr. MᶜAdam, is superior to any other that you have seen adopted?—Certainly, I am sure it is, there is no question about it.
And that its general adoption would be highly beneficial to the coach proprietors, and to the public?—Most certainly.
Mr. _Fromont_ being prevented by an accident from attending the Committee, it was resolved that the following Letter be entered on the Minutes:
Thatcham, May 1819.
Gentlemen,
I think it a duty incumbent on me to present to you my opinion respecting Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan of repairing and improving turnpike roads. From what I have noticed of his improvement on different parts of the Bath road, on which I am at present working different coaches a distance of above 500 miles per day, I think his plan altogether, _i. e._ first of screening and cleansing the gravel, and breaking the stones; secondly, of preparing the road to receive it; and thirdly, of laying it on the road, is the best and safest method I have ever seen in the course of fifty years experience in the coach and waggon business. I have formerly had several accidents happen from the gravel being laid too thick and very high in the middle of the road; and have killed some hundreds of horses (extra) in pulling through it; and I think I may venture to say, that if Mr. MᶜAdam’s plan was adopted generally throughout the kingdom, in the course of a short time the public would be enabled to travel with much greater ease and safety, and at nearly one-third less of expense; at all events I am convinced that nearly one-third less labour is required to work a fast coach over part of the road between Reading and London, where MᶜAdam’s plan has been adopted, than there is over other parts of the road where they still continue the old plan In short, my opinion may be given in a few words; his plan, if adopted generally, will cause the traveller to find easier, safer, and more expeditious travelling, and the owners of horses a diminution of nearly one-third of the original labour.
I am, Gentlemen, with respect, Your most obedient servant, _Edward Fromont_.
_Jovis, 4º die Martii, 1819._
_John Loudon MᶜAdam_, Esq. called in; and Examined.
I believe, Mr. MᶜAdam, you reside at Bristol?—Yes, I do.
And have under your care a considerable district of the turnpike roads in that neighbourhood?—Yes, about one hundred and eighty miles of road in that neighbourhood.
How long has your attention been particularly directed to the state of the public roads of the kingdom generally, and the means of their improvement?—About twenty-five years.
Are you a professional civil engineer?—No.
Be pleased to state to the Committee the general state of the turnpike roads at the time you first directed your attention to them, about twenty years ago?—I think the state of the roads twenty years ago, was worse generally than at present, and in particular places much worse. If the Committee would indulge me, I would mention what first led me to these considerations. On my first arriving from America in the year 1783, at the time the roads were making in Scotland (their Turnpike Acts being in operation about twenty years at that time,) very many of their roads were unmade. I was then appointed a commissioner of the roads, and had occasion in that capacity to see a great deal of road-work.
Where?—In Scotland. This first led me to inquire into the general method of road-making, and the expense of it. Since that period, I have been mostly in Bristol, where I was also appointed a commissioner of the roads; the very defective state of which could not fail to attract my attention. I was induced to offer myself to the commissioners, to take charge of the roads as a surveyor, because I found it impossible for any individual commissioner to get the roads put into a situation of being, mended with any prospect of success; and no individual could incur the expense of making experiments on a great scale. The roads of Bristol were accordingly put under my direction in the month of January 1816.
That was when you were appointed surveyor?—Yes, I have travelled at various times, during the lost twenty years, to ascertain which are the best roads, and which the best means of road-making over the whole kingdom, from Inverness in Scotland to the Land’s End in Cornwall. I have obtained all the information that an unauthorized person could expect to receive. In the course of travelling through the country, I have generally found the roads in a very defective state, certainly much worse in particular parts of the country than in others; and in particular counties I have found some parts of the roads much worse than in other parts of the same county. The defects of the roads appear to me to proceed from various causes, but principally from the large use of a mixture of clay and chalk and other matters, that imbibe water, and are affected by frost. Such roads become loose in wet weather, so as to allow the wheels of carriages to displace the materials, and thereby occasion the roads to be rough and rutty. More pains, and much more expense, have been bestowed on the roads of late years, but without, in my opinion, producing any adequate effect, from want of skill in the executive department. I consider the roads in South Wales, in Monmouthshire, in Cornwall, in Devonshire, in Herefordshire, in part of Hampshire, in part of Oxfordshire, and some part of Gloucestershire, are managed with the least skill, and consequently, at the heaviest expense. The paved roads of Lancashire appear to be very unprofitable, and very expensive. I shall mention to the Committee a few roads which I think in a better condition and under a better system of management. Eastward of Bridgewater in Somersetshire, near Kendal in Westmoreland, and near North Allerton, in Yorkshire, the roads appear to be in a much better state than in other parts of the kingdom; and there is a striking difference in the moderate rate of their tolls, which I have always found most moderate where the roads are best managed. I consider the reason of the roads in those parts being in a better condition than in other places, is from greater skill and attention being paid to the preparation of the materials and the manner laying them on the roads.
Does the superiority of roads, in certain places that you have mentioned, arise from their better materials in those neighbourhoods?—No; the same material is found in many parts of the kingdom with much worse roads.
Then, in general, you impute the badness of the roads solely to the applying of the materials?—Yes.
And also to the formation of the roads?—That I consider as part of the application of the materials.
Has there prevailed of late years a general spirit of improvement, in different parts of the country, with regard to the roads?—I think there has, and particularly in the west country.
What instances have come within your own knowledge?—The roads immediately round the city of Bristol to the extent of 148 miles, round Bath to the extent of 49 miles, between Cirencester and Bath to the amount of 32 miles, the roads of nine trusts in the eastern parts of Sussex amounting to 97 miles, at Epsom in Surrey amounting to 20 miles, at Reading in Berkshire six miles, amounting in the whole to 352 miles, have been put into a very good condition; in addition to which, there are now under repair, five trusts in Wiltshire and Berkshire, amounting to 108 miles; six trusts in Middlesex, Cambridge and Huntingdon, amounting to 91 miles; six trusts in Devonshire, Buckinghamshire and Glamorganshire, amounting to 129 miles; making a total of 328 miles under repair. These are roads that have been mended, or are now mending, under directions which I have given, or which have been given by my family.
You are not particularly acquainted with the improvements taking place under the management of other persons?—Not particularly; but I have some knowledge of some of them from circumstances.
You have not taken under observation the great road to Holyhead?—No; that I understand is a new road. You asked me with respect to the spirit of improvement; I would wish to explain in what way I think that is proceeding. I have been sent for and consulted by 34 different sets of commissioners, and as many different trusts, and in 13 counties, to the extent of 637 miles, all of whom have been making improvements, and I have had many sub-surveyors instructed and sent to various parts of the country, at the request of commissioners; many surveyors also in the neighbourhood where improvements are making, have availed themselves of the opportunity of having instruction. Thus the surveyors of Southampton and that neighbourhood have attended to what is doing at Salisbury and Wilton; thus the surveyors at Kingston and Guildford have profited by the improvements at Epsom in Surrey.
On which road are the 20 miles that you mentioned at Epsom?—From Epsom to Tooting, and then across the country to Kingston. Several surveyors near Reading in Berkshire have imitated, with considerable success, the improvements on that road. Mr. Clay, who has contracted for the repair of the Kingsland road near London, engaged a young man who was in my office at Bristol, Mr. Marshal, whom he sent afterwards to Leeds in Yorkshire. It has been my study to give every facility to spread information.
Has your attention been directed to the roads in the neighbourhood of London; and can you state to the Committee whether any corresponding improvement has taken place in this district?—I think less improvement has taken place round London than in the country. On the new Surrey roads the example set by the pieces of road made at Blackfriars and Westminster bridges has induced a little amendment; the materials have been more carefully broken, and they have continued to use the hammers, rakes and other tools which were recommended to them; but the general improvement is unimportant: and I am not aware that any alteration has taken place in the system of expenditure, and the mode of being supplied with materials, or in employing more competent surveyors.
From the experience you have had in the improvements that have taken place, have you found that these have been attended generally, with an increase or diminution of expense?—In general the expense must be diminished by the improvements. The repairs of one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol, and many expensive permanent improvements and alterations, have been made in the last three years, during which a floating debt of upwards 1,400_l._ has been paid off, a considerable reduction of the principal debt has been made, and a balance of a considerable amount is remaining in the hands of the treasurer, applicable to further alterations, or to the payment of part of the debt, at the discretion of the commissioners.
Can you state what proportion that is?—I think the first year, 723_l._
What is the amount of the whole debt?—The whole debt is 43,000_l._ I said a considerable reduction of the principal debt had been made, I did not use the word proportion. I can mention that the balance in the hands of the treasurer, on the last settlement of the account amounted to 2,790_l._ 0_s._ 4_d._ in the Bristol district, beside a considerable diminution of the debt, and beside alterations and improvements.
That applies only to one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol?—Only to the one hundred and forty-eight miles round Bristol. The Bristol district has been under one trust for twenty years, and in that period the debt has increased to 43,000_l._
You will be kind enough to furnish the Committee, with a statement similar to that which was supplied by you to the Holyhead Committee, down to the latest period?—I will. Bristol is the only district for which I can have precise figures, I have not had the finances in my own management or direction with respect to the others. As I have only advised with respect to them, I cannot give you the items; and I must say, that my information with respect to other roads, must be much more general than with respect to this road. In Sussex, the roads in nine trusts have been mended with a considerable diminution of the former expense, and the thanks of a general meeting of the trustees of the Lewes trusts were unanimously voted to Lord Chichester “for the introduction of this system, by which the roads had been so much improved, and the country was likely to derive so much benefit.”
Have you found that a similar diminution of expense has taken place where the materials have been bad, as where they have been good?—Yes, I have.
Do you find your mode of management equally applicable where the materials are bad as where they are good, and that the same proportionable benefit arises?—I am afraid gentlemen suppose that I have some particular mode of management, which is certainly not the case, nor can by any means be the case; and in every road I have been obliged to alter the mode of management, according to the situation of the roads, and sometimes according to the finances. At Epsom in Surrey, the roads have been put into a good repair, at an expense considerably under the former annual expenditure, by which the trustees have been enabled to lower their tolls on agricultural carriages. The road between Reading and Twyford, in Berkshire, has been made solid and smooth since the beginning of July last, by persons under my directions, at an expense, including the surveyor’s salary, not exceeding fifteen pounds per week; and their former expenditure, exclusive of the surveyor’s salary, was twenty-two pounds per week. A great part of the road in the neighbourhood of Bath, which was formed upon the plan laid down in my report to the commissioners, and with the greatest success, is made with freestone, which was always supposed impossible to make a good road of; but it will make a good road. It certainly does not last so long as one made of better materials; but it is equally good whilst it does last. One of the roads out of Bristol towards Old Down has been made good, where it was a received opinion, that from the nature of the materials the road could not be made so; and the commissioners would not consent to my beginning it until the road was threatened to be indicted. It was put into my hands in October 1816, and at the Christmas following I was able to report that it was one of the best roads in England for a distance of eleven miles, at the expense of first outlay only of 600_l._ and it has continued so until the present.
Please to inform the Committee, what are the means, in your opinion, the most eligible to be adopted for the amelioration of the roads throughout the kingdom?—That question, I think, divides itself into two branches: The operative part, in making the roads, and the care of the finances, and the mode of their expenditure. I should imagine the operative part of preparing roads cannot be effected without procuring a more skilful set of sub-surveyors; young men, brought up to agriculture and labour must be sought, and regularly instructed. It is a business that cannot be taught from books, but can only be acquired by a laborious practice of several months, and actual work upon roads, under skilful road-makers. Young men who have been accustomed to agricultural labour are fittest to be made road-surveyors, as their occupations have given them opportunities of being acquainted with the value of labour both of men and horses. But I should greatly mislead the Committee if I did not inform them, that skill in the operative part of road-making cannot alone produce a reformation of the multitude of abuses that are practised in almost every part of the country, in the management of roads and road funds. These abuses can only be put down by officers in the situation of gentlemen, who must enjoy the confidence, and have the support of commissioners, and who must exercise a constant and vigilant inspection over the expenditure made by the sub-surveyors. They must be enabled to certify to the commissioners that the public money is judiciously and usefully, as well as honestly expended; without this control and superintendence an end cannot be put to the waste of the public money, and all the various modes that are injurious to the public interest, the amount of which would appear incredible, could it be ascertained; but which, I conscientiously believe, amount to one-eighth of the road revenue of the kingdom at large, and to a much greater proportion near London.
Do you mean the frauds amount to one-eighth?—No, not direct frauds, I call it mis-application; it must not be concealed, that the temptations with which, even a superior officer will be assailed, the facility of yielding to them, and the impunity with which transgression may be committed, require great delicacy in the selection of persons to fill the situation; and encouragement to make this a profession must be in proportion to the quality of the person required.
Do you not consider one of these mis-applications to be the injudicious use of the labour of horses, instead of that of men, women and children?—I do consider that to be a great mis-application of the labour of horses. I am afraid that gentlemen may understand, from what I said, that frauds are committed to the amount of one-eighth, but I meant no such thing; I meant the loss arising from mis-application generally. I have in general found a great deal more materials put upon the road than are necessary, and I am of opinion that is one of the chief causes of the waste of the public money.
Do you think the loss arises, in most instances, from mistake, or from any abuse in regard to the power and patronage which the situation confers?—I think it proceeds from mistakes and ignorance mostly.
Please to explain to the Committee in what way you think the labour of men, women and children, may be substituted for that of horses?—I have generally found that a much greater quantity of materials have been carted to the roads than are necessary, and therefore the increase of horse-labour has been beyond any useful purpose, and that generally the roads of the kingdom contain a supply of materials sufficient for their use for several years, if they were properly lifted and applied; this is to be entirely done by men, women, and children, men lifting the roads, and women and boys, and men past labour, breaking the stones which were lifted up.
By lifting the road, you mean turning it up with the pickaxe?—Yes; that I consider as man’s work; taking up the materials and breaking stones, I consider the work of women and children, and which indeed ought to have been done before those materials had been laid down.
How deep do you go in lifting the roads?—That depends upon circumstances, but I have generally gone four inches deep; I take the materials up four inches deep, and having broken the larger pieces, I put them back again.
Please to explain to the Committee the mode of breaking the stones so as to admit of the labour of men, women and children?—When the stones of an old road have been taken up, they are generally found of the size that women and boys can break them with small hammers, and therefore I would propose to employ these people to break those stones always before they are laid back in the roads.
Is it your plan for those people to break those stones standing, or in a sitting posture?—Always in a sitting posture: because I have found that persons sitting will break more stones than persons standing, and with a lighter hammer.
Does that apply to all materials?—To all materials universally.
Does the plan which you have mentioned of breaking up the roads, apply to gravel roads, or only to those roads composed of hard stones?—In gravel roads and in some other roads it would be impossible to break them up to any advantage; and in several places which I will explain, I should think it unprofitable to lift a road at all. There is a discretion of the surveyor, or the person who has the execution of the work, which must be exercised. I did not order the road in the neighbourhood of Reading to be lifted, but I directed wherever a large piece of flint was seen, it should be taken up, broken, and put down again; and I directed the road to be made perfectly clean—I am speaking of a gravel road now—and I directed that additional gravel should be prepared in the pits by screening the dirt very clean from it, breaking all the large pieces and bringing that upon the road in very light coats not exceeding two inches at a time; and when those coats were settled, to bring others of very clean materials upon the road, until it settled into a solid smooth hard surface, and which the coachmen in their mode of expression, say “runs true.” The wheel runs hard upon it; it runs upon the nail.
Uninfluenced by the state of the weather?—Perfectly so.
In your experience, have you observed that on gravel roads the materials are generally very unskilfully and improperly applied?—Generally so. I think always I may say, for I think I never saw them skilfully or properly managed.
Have you adopted the mode of washing the gravel?—No; I think that is a more expensive process than is necessary.