Part 5

Abstract of Return of Turnpike Roads round London 196

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

_Martis, 2º die Martij, 1819._ EDWARD PROTHEROE, ESQUIRE, In the Chair.

_Charles Johnson_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You are surveyor and superintendent of mail coaches under the Post Master General?—Yes.

How long have you held that office?—Not twelve months yet.

Has your attention been directed, in the execution of the duties of that office, to the state of the turnpike roads throughout the kingdom?—I have given a general attention to the subject, and I have had occasion, of course, to give particular attention to it, when complaints have been made of loss of time.

In what state of repair do you consider the turnpike roads to be, generally throughout the kingdom?—I certainly (as far as I have had an opportunity of inspecting them) consider, that almost all the roads might be improved; but there are very few instances in which I should have thought it necessary to advise the Post Master General to interfere, except in the more immediate neighbourhood of London.

It is not the practice of the Post-office to interfere in the mode you mention, by indictment, unless the evil has arisen to a very great pitch?—Not until it has arisen to a very considerable evil.

Do you consider that the general defective state of the road arises from any local disadvantages, or from mismanagement in regard to the funds, or the application of materials?—That question involves so many considerations, that I hardly know how to give an answer to it; but I think, that in general one may observe a great want of that skill in forming the road and keeping it in repair, which is very obvious in some parts of the country.

Do you consider that the defects you have mentioned in the neighbourhood of London, arise from any local disadvantages, or from the roads been worse managed?—It is generally understood that in the neighbourhood of London they have not so good materials to repair the roads with, being chiefly gravel; but I think I may say, that there is certainly a want of attention and of care.

Have you known instances in the neighbourhood of London where better roads have been obtained by superior management?—In the early part of the winter we were under such great difficulties with respect to the Exeter mail coach, that I was under the necessity of applying to the Egham trust. It was at that time reported to me, that the whole town of Egham had been covered with gravel unsifted, eight or nine inches deep from side to side; the consequence of that was, that the mail coach lost ten, fifteen, or twenty minutes every night. We were given afterwards to understand that the commissioners had put that particular road under the care of Mr. MᶜAdam, and at this time I have no sort of occasion whatever to complain of it.

Generally speaking, do you consider that the mails are detained more by the bad state of the roads in the neighbourhood of London than elsewhere?—They certainly have more difficulty in passing to and from London for the first fifty or sixty miles, than in almost any other part of the country. It is in the nights we have the heaviest weights, and therefore it is very desirable that the roads near town should be rather better, than worse than others.

Has your attention been particularly directed to the state of the roads in other parts of the kingdom lately?—I travelled a considerable distance last autumn in the north of England. Certainly I considered the roads that I passed over there, to be very superior in general to what they are in the first hundred miles from the metropolis. Subsequently to that, I have had occasion to travel throughout North Wales, and I gave particular attention to the Holyhead line of road.

By what road?—By Coventry. The roads which are found in North Wales are remarkably good, and in my humble opinion, show great science in the formation of them. The new roads I mean. The materials in that country are of course very good. On this side of Birmingham, which is also the road to Liverpool, there is great occasion to complain, particularly from Dunchurch to Daventry. At this time that road is in a very neglected state, very heavy, narrow, and blocked up by banks of drift. I have had occasion to apply to that trust, but I do not learn that any thing has been done.

Have you found the system of indictment afford any effectual remedy for the evils which you have had cause to observe in that way?—I think we have. But there have been very few indictments preferred for some years past; the postmaster general not thinking it right to press upon the districts during the season of agricultural distress. I should say, we do not consider that any reason, at present, for abstaining.

Have you experienced from the commissioners, a disposition, generally, to attend to such complaints as you have found occasion to make?—Such applications as I have had occasion to make appear to have been very well received; but I cannot say, that in many instances the roads have been much improved. I will add to this answer, that I lately passed over the road from Oxford through Henley to London; and although that is one of the roads complained much of, it is certainly, at this time, in a very improper state.

In such cases do you not follow up your measures by stronger proceedings, by indictment?—I think that in this case it would be necessary to renew our applications, and perhaps to proceed by indictment; but I have considered it prudent not to interfere, chiefly in contemplation of the proceedings of this Committee.

From what you have seen of the new roads in Wales, do you not conceive that nearly all the turnpike roads in England are capable of very considerable improvement, by an application of equal skill in the disposition of the materials employed upon them?—I certainly do.

Mr. _William Waterhouse_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the Swan-with-two-Necks in Lad-lane?—I belong to the premises; I don’t keep the house; I am the coachmaster.

You are the proprietor of many mail and other coaches?—I am.

As the proprietor of mail and stage coaches, has your attention been directed to the state of the roads over which they travel?—Yes, it has.

Inform the Committee whether you think the roads are in such a state of repair as they might be, under proper management, with the advantages they possess?—Taking them generally, I think they are not.

Do you consider that the amount of the tolls at present received would be sufficient to place them in a state of good repair, under proper management?—From what information I have been able to obtain of the sums which the gates are let for upon several trusts, it is my opinion that the money so received is quite sufficient to put them in a very good state. For instance, there is one trust, which is called the Daventry trust, leading from Old Stratford to Dunchurch; their tolls, I understand, produce more than 100_l._ a mile per annum. Very little improvement has been made in that trust; and the roads are very unsafe, and in a bad condition altogether.

Do you consider that that arises from want of proper materials, or want of proper skill in making use of them?—From both. The materials that they have in that neighbourhood, in my opinion, are not good; and the people that they employ upon the roads are not equal to the task, and therefore they are very much neglected. The surveyors and the men that work under them are insufficient.

Do you know of any instances where similar disadvantages have been surmounted by proper skill and ingenuity?—I believe I can state that upon one particular trust that has been the case. I believe they call it the Hockliffe trust. It is but a short distance, but very great improvements have been made upon it. The great improvements that have been made there, I am informed by several of the commissioners, have been done through their skilful and attentive surveyors. They have improved that trust very much indeed. I believe I can mention another road out of London that has been much improved, I mean the Essex road, (their surveyor being a clever man, and competent to understand his business,) between Whitechapel church and Brentwood.

Are there any particular defects in the management of the roads generally, which you think might be remedied, that you can point out to the Committee?—In the first place, there may be great improvements by the proper formation of the roads. I know, in some places, particularly from here down to Colney, where there is a clayey bottom, and upon that line of road there are a great many land springs; those springs frequently work up through the gravel, and injure the road very materially. When that is the case I consider that they should under-drain the road, and take away these land springs, which would be the means of having the roads firm and hard, much harder than they are now.

Is it not a common defect to place the gravel on the road without being sufficiently sifted or washed?—Very much so.

Do you not consider it as a bad system, likewise, to place the gravel so much in the centre of the road, thereby rendering it of too great convexity?—Yes, certainly. I think it is laid generally too thick and too high in the middle. There is no necessity for the roads being rounded so much.

Have you known any accidents to have arisen from the steepness of the road?—Yes; several accidents with my coaches, as well as those of other people, in consequence of the road being laid so very high in the middle.

Is not that shape of the road likewise attended with a disadvantage in the draft of the carriage?—I consider it so, inasmuch as it flings the weight too much on one side.

Is not a great loss sustained by the proprietors of stage coaches, in consequence of the badness of the roads, in the wearing out of their horses?—Yes; particularly so the first fifty or sixty miles from London.

With regard to the performance of time by the mail coaches, do you find that you labour under greater difficulty on the roads near London, than on those at a greater distance from town?—I am certain we do. It requires a greater quantity of horses to perform the duty, and, in my opinion, it requires ten horses to perform the same number of miles for the first fifty out of London, that might be done by eight, with the same speed, beyond that distance.

Is there any difference in the value of the horses used near town and at a distance from it?—I can buy horses at 15_l._ a piece that will perform the duty, at a distance from London, equal to those that we are obliged to give 30_l._ a piece for, on the average, for the work near town.

Are you in the habit of working coaches to a greater than fifty miles from London?—Not at this time; I have worked coaches as far as one hundred miles distance from London, and I always found there that eight horses would perform as many miles as ten, the first fifty miles out of London.

Have not the tolls very much increased of late years under new acts of parliament?—It is my opinion that the tolls generally have doubled within these last fifteen years.

Have the roads improved in any degree in the same proportion?—No, they have not.

Have you calculated the average rate per mile which a coach with four horses pays for toll?—I have: It is my opinion that the average amount throughout the kingdom is 3½_d._ per mile; it was above 3_d._ when I took them above twelve months ago.

Do you find that the horses wear out in a much shorter space of time, in working coaches within the first fifty miles from London, than they do lower down?—Yes they do very much. We calculate that our stock of horses, employed in working the first fifty miles out of London, will not last more than four years; in the country, at a greater distance, I believe they calculate that their stock, on an average, will last six years.

Are you not frequently obliged to put six horses to your coaches, on the roads from London?—Sometimes that is the case; we do work with six horses where the roads are bad and heavy. I may say, from the knowledge I have of one particular road, namely, from London to Birmingham, it requires twelve horses to perform the same number of miles as eight horses will do between Birmingham and Holyhead.

How many coach-horses do you keep?—About four hundred.

Are you acquainted with the new roads in North Wales, made by Mr. Telford?—Yes, I am.

Do you think that three of your horses would draw the Holyhead mail as easily on those roads as four of them do the same coach on any part of the road from London to Dunchurch?—I have no doubt about it.

Does that arise from the construction of the road, or nature of the materials, or both?—Both. The construction of the new road is extraordinarily good, and the materials also are very good.

Can you state what particular construction those roads are of?—They are laid in a form sufficiently round to wash themselves, if there is a shower of rain that comes upon them. They are not very high; and their excellence consists in the smallness of the convexity. They are in the best form I have ever seen roads made.

Mr. _William Horne_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the Golden Cross Inn, Charing Cross?—Yes.

You are the proprietor of many mail and stage coaches?—I am.

Your attention of course has been directed to the state of the roads over which they travel?—It has.

Can you inform the Committee in what state the roads generally are, in point of goodness?—I think in general they have been better for the last seven years than formerly, though they are now bad. They are generally bad, and might be very much improved.

Can you state to the Committee any particular instances of improvement that have taken place within your own knowledge?—Yes; one between London and Hounslow, which must be known to every body to have been very bad; that road has been made good, which was extremely bad before.

Do you consider that the application of the materials upon that road is at present good?—Yes. It is the better construction of the road, together with the different materials from what they used formerly, which have been the means of making that road better. They have brought chalk and flints from Kent by the canal, and have got them at as small an expense as gravel; and these have formed a hard well-bound road, which was formerly bad.

Upon what other roads do your coaches travel?—I will mention one which is precisely the contrary, the Uxbridge road.

Gravel is usually employed on that?—Solely gravely and the road is very flat. It is made lower than the fields, which draws the water upon it, and therefore it cannot be drawn off from it. That is the chief cause of the road being so bad.

Is it not the practice upon that road to pile up the scrapings or drift by the side of the road?—It is.

Within your experience, do you consider that the goodness of the roads is at all in proportion to the local advantages or disadvantages; or have you found that the skill and experience of the surveyors employed upon them have effected particular improvements?—They chiefly depend upon having good surveyors. The Dover road will show that more than any other road I know of. I can remember that within these seven years, what was then called “The Sun in the Sands” has been made a very good road. That road was all loose and sandy: they have drained it, and it is now a very good road.

Can you state under whose superintendence that road is placed?—Mr. Collis’s. He is now employed on the Brighton road, effecting the same sort of improvement; reducing hills, and making the road good.

Do you find that the roads on which your coaches travel, are much worse in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts?—I find them worse for coaches near London, but it may be attributed partly to the greater quantity of travelling near London to what there is in the country.

Are the horses that you employ in the stages near London of superior value to those that are employed at a greater distance?—It differs according to the carriage. I think with the stage coaches, the horses out of London are considerably more in value than those employed at a greater distance from London; and as to mail coaches, _vice versa_. In the country, the day stock of the coaches is very good, but in the night they work them very badly.

Do you find that your horses that are employed in the stages near London, wear out sooner than those at a greater distance?—Much sooner, I should think. I employ about four hundred horses myself, and I am sure I buy one hundred and fifty a year to support the number, and keep the stock in order. I consider that my stock wears out fully in three years.

How much longer on an average, will horses last at a distance from town?—I should think double the time: for these reasons; first, the work is lighter, and next, the food is better; besides which, the lodging of them is better; the stables are airy and more healthy; they have not so often diseases in the country as we have in London.

Are you in the habit of working coaches to any great distance from London?—I work them half way to Bristol; with Mr. Pickwick of Bath, I work to Newbury.

Do you know whether the horses that are employed still lower down upon that road, are considered to have lighter or heavier work?—I should not keep larger horses for that work myself; I should keep short-legged horses, because of the hills.

Which are of less value?—Yes.

Speaking generally, if the same skill and management that you have mentioned in particular districts were generally employed, do you not think that the roads of England and Wales might be put into a very perfect state of repair?—I think, that with better direction as to management, they might be put into a much better state of repair, at the same cost, than they now are. There is a road, called the North-east Road (the way that the Edinburgh mail comes,) which is much improved lately, and without any great expense.

Under whose management is that road?—Of a Mr. Clay. It has been done by rolling the road, and breaking the gravel to a certain size, not putting it on too large or too small; and taking care to turn the road well. If the road is not turned well, it never will be good.

This roller is a late invention, is it not?—It is. It impresses the gravel, or whatever the material is, into the ground, before the road is scraped; then they proceed to scrape it and take the slush off; this rolls down the ruts as well.

And from your experience, you have every reason to believe that it is of great advantage to the road?—I have worked the Tyburn road, and the White Cross roads, which were as bad as the Tyburn till this practice has been introduced.

Do you know any thing of the Reading road, which Mr. MᶜAdam has had the superintendence of?—It is a very fair road; it is the best piece of road in that direction.

Can you inform the Committee the weights you are accustomed to carry upon the different descriptions of carriages, mail coaches, post coaches, and heavy coaches?—The post coach loaded is 38 cwt. weight; it is never more than two tons. The mail coach also is not more than two tons, I should think. As to heavy coaches, I only work two of that description out of the 40 coaches that are in my own yard; they are so little used, that they don’t generally weigh more than the post coach; they don’t carry so much luggage.

What is the weight of the heavy coach?—Not more than the post, because they don’t carry so much luggage as some of the post coaches. I reckon 12 passengers one ton, coach one ton, and luggage half a ton.

Have you known of any accidents to your coaches arising from the great convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I have had accidents, and they have sometimes been attributed to the horses shying, and plunging the coach on one side, so as to cause it to overturn, from the great roundness of the road.

Mr. _John Eames_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the White Horse, Fetter-lane, and are the proprietor of the Angel Inn, St. Clement’s?—Yes.

You are the proprietor of several mail and stage coaches?—Yes.

How many horses do you keep?—About three hundred.

What are the principal roads you are in the habit of working from London?—We work the Canterbury, the Cambridge, the Dover, the Norwich, the Portsmouth, and some others.

Do you find that you sustain much inconvenience from the state of the roads over which you travel?—Yes. As to inconvenience, I find much more in the neighbourhood of London than the more distant parts.

How long do you find that your horses upon an average last, that are employed in the first stages from London?—My horses, upon an average, don’t last above three years in the fast coaches.

Including the mails?—Yes.

And those horses in the neighbourhood of London, are of greater value than those employed at a distance?—They are.

Upon an average, how long do the horses last that are employed in the more distant parts?—They last as long again.

Do you attribute that in a great degree to the badness of the roads in the neighbourhood of London?—I attribute it to the distress the horse receives from the badness of the roads near town; but I attribute it also in a great degree to the meeting of different carriages, and crossing the road, which makes it more laborious to the horse, though he does not appear to go so many miles.

Do you not consider that that particular evil is occasioned in a great degree by the convexity of the roads in the neighbourhood of London, the materials being generally heaped up in the middle?—I do; it “tears their hearts out,” as the coachmen express it. The roads are inconvenient from the quantity and quality of the gravel heaped in the middle.

Have you known any instances in which a different system has been pursued, and the roads greatly improved, in the neighbourhood of London?—The road from London to Cranford Bridge has been improved of late, and from London to Hounslow more particularly, in consequence of the pavement in the crown of the road, which has done away with the gravelling, or shingle rather.

Is not the gravel upon that road generally employed without sifting or washing?—It is half clay.

Have you known instances in which this inconvenience has been remedied by superior skill and experience in the surveyor of the roads?—Yes; in the same line of road that Mr. Horne referred to; in the Kent road particularly.

If that same skill was employed in the application of materials to the other roads, do you not think that they might be brought generally to the same state of improvement?—I have no doubt of it; there is no question about it. The Surrey road has been improved on the same principle.

What do you call the Surrey road?—From London to Guildford.

Do you know under whose management that is?—I don’t know now; a person named Baker had the management of it.

Was it under him it was improved?—Yes.

How many miles of road does that consist of?—Thirty miles.

And it is very much improved?—Yes.

By what means?—The materials are harder than the gravel. He brings the rag flints and breaks them, but in a different manner from other parts of the road. He has improved it so much, that it does not look the same road at all; I can go now sixteen miles better than I could twelve before.

Do you consider that the horses which travel these roads that have been improved, last longer than formerly?—Yes.

You need hardly be asked whether these improvements enable you to carry passengers at a lower rate than before?—Of course; it is the expense of the stock that is the great thing.

If the roads were generally improved, travelling would be cheaper?—Of course.

_Veneris, 21º die Maii, 1819._

Mr. _George Botham_, called in; and Examined.

You keep the George Inn, at Newbury?—I do.

Are you a proprietor of mail and other coaches?—Yes.