Part 15

Looking to the result of these services as affecting the community at large; the increase of comfort, convenience and safety to the Public generally; the diminution of expense in the wear and tear of carriages of all descriptions; the reduction of horse-labour, and consequent expense of horses; the relief the oppressive burthen of the poor rates, by the additional means created for employing the surplus labouring population of the encumbered parishes; the abolition in many instances of a great part, and in some, of the whole of the statute duty complained of by the agriculturists, and the very essential benefit to the agricultural, commercial and manufacturing classes, by the more easy and equal diffusion of the produce of the soil over the various parts of the kingdom; the free as well as rapid circulation of commercial capital, thereby adding greatly to the national wealth and prosperity which this system has materially contributed to effect; the Committee cannot hesitate to express their opinion, in concurrence with that already pronounced by the Heads of the Department of the Post Office, that the sum of 2,000_l._ or 2,500_l._, in addition to his expenses, to be calculated after the same rate of allowance as is granted by that office to the Surveyor or Superintendent of Mailcoaches, will be but a moderate compensation to Mr. MᶜAdam for his great exertions and very valuable services.

The Committee, with a view to abridge the Appendix, have omitted to include several testimonials forwarded to them from different innkeepers and postmasters, stating the advantages they have derived from the improvement of the roads under Mr. MᶜAdam’s system; but which tend to confirm the general opinion favourable to the system.

It appears that Mr. MᶜAdam has held, from the year 1816 to the present time, and now holds, the situation of general surveyor of the Bristol Turnpike Roads at a salary, the first year, of 400_l._ and each subsequent year, of 500_l._; but taking into consideration, that out of his annual salary 200_l._ is for expenses incident to his Office, the remaining sum of 300_l._ is, in the opinion of this Committee, not more than an adequate payment for the constant and laborious duties attached to the situation, and cannot, or ought not, to be considered as constituting any remuneration to Mr. MᶜAdam for his other distinct and important services.

It further appears, that the three sons of Mr. MᶜAdam are employed as general surveyors upon various lines of road in different parts of the Kingdom; that they have been and are competitors with all other road surveyors, over whom they possess no other advantage than such as their superior intelligence, skill and industry entitle them to, having no exclusive or preferable privilege whatever; that they have improved, and at the same time have very considerably reduced the expense upon almost all the roads under their management; and that their incomes, when diminished by the necessary disbursements and payments to the persons acting under them, and their own expenses, cannot be deemed too large a sum for their own individual services; but, on the contrary, that they have returned to the Public for the amount of their gains a fair and full measure of benefit, by the personal activity, skill and labour so conspicuous in the management of the roads, and the funds of the trusts under their superintendence; that two of the three had relinquished situations of profit to afford their aid in giving effect to and carrying the system into execution, and are justly entitled to the fruits of their industry, and hard-earned incomes, without the participation of any other person; and it does not appear that the Petitioner has profited in any manner from the salaries allowed to his sons.

With respect to the petition of Mr. Wingrove, referred to your Committee, it appears, from the Petitioner’s own statement, that his object is a compensation for services which he considers himself individually to have rendered to the public, a claim which your Committee can neither investigate nor entertain, being foreign to the object of their inquiry; and no part of Mr. Wingrove’s statement appearing, in the opinion of your Committee, to affect the system of Mr. MᶜAdam, or impeach his claim to a remuneration for services performed, they feel it necessary only to present his evidence without further remark.

In like manner, and with the same observation, they may dismiss the petition of Mr. Lester, between the comparative merit of whose literary productions with those of Mr. MᶜAdam, and whether Mr. MᶜAdam has “infringed upon his literary property,” your Committee are not called upon to determine; nor is it within their province to pronounce an opinion upon the degree of merit belonging to Mr. Lester for the construction of the various models of machines exhibited to your Committee, and alleged by Mr. Lester to be applicable to, and useful for, the improvement of roads.

In conclusion, your Committee desire to state it as their opinion, that the value of Mr. MᶜAdam’s system, and consequently of his services, by no means appears to its full extent upon the roads under the immediate management of himself, or of his sons; but that the effect produced upon a considerable portion of the roads generally throughout the Kingdom, since the adoption of his system, has been manifest, and, as your Committee conceive, too apparent to escape the most common or indifferent observer; and further, that it must be obvious, from past experience, that a system from which so much good has been already derived, would, if extended over the whole face of the Kingdom, be productive of the most beneficial consequences both to the condition of the roads, and in effecting a reduction of the amount of the present enormous and improvident expenditure.

Your Committee would therefore strongly recommend to the House the consideration of the subject of making and managing the roads of the Kingdom in the course of the ensuing Session of Parliament, feeling convinced that whatever plausible appearance the plan may assume of appointing a large number of noblemen, gentlemen, farmers, and tradesmen, Commissioners of Roads, that the practice has everywhere been found to be at variance with the supposed efficiency of so large a number of irresponsible managers; and that the inevitable consequences of a continuance of this defective system will be, to involve the different trusts deeper in debt, and leave the roads without funds to preserve them in proper order.

Your Committee cannot close their Report without directing the attention of the House to that part of Mr. James MᶜAdam’s evidence, in which he states the practicability of converting the pavement of the streets of London into smooth and substantial roads; and your Committee have the satisfaction to inform the House that the experiment is about to be tried in two very different and distinct parts of the Metropolis, viz. in St. James’s Square, and over Westminster Bridge and its boundary. This most desirable improvement has, as appears from the evidence of Mr. MᶜAdam, senior, and from that of Mr. William MᶜAdam, already been tried, and completely succeeded (as is well known to many members of the House) both at Bristol and Exeter, and is in progress of execution upon the paved ways in the county of Lancaster.

The benefit to the inhabitants of this large City by such an important improvement, in all its various advantages of comfort, convenience, and economy, can scarcely be appreciated; and your Committee hope that the plan about to be tried in two separate parts of London will be found so far to succeed as to induce its adoption, at least in all the large streets of the Metropolis, observing, that they believe that it is a plan which Mr. MᶜAdam has for many years urged the adoption of, and, as constituting a part of his system, will be found mentioned in all his publications on the improved system of road-making.

20th _June_, 1823.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

_Mercurii, 28º die Maij, 1823._ SIR THOMAS BARING, BART. In the Chair.

_John Loudon MᶜAdam_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.

You were formerly a magistrate, and commissioner of the roads in Scotland, were you not?—I was.

When did you first turn your attention to road making?—I was a commissioner and trustee of the roads in Scotland from the time of my return from America in the year 1783; and I naturally turned my attention to it there, because they had begun about twelve years before to make the roads turnpike, and they were carrying them on with considerable activity when I returned from America; and it appeared to me at that time, and all the time I was trustee, that there was a great deal of money expended needlessly, and with very little effect, on the roads, and that of course turned my attention to the cause. I began then to travel through different parts of the country to inspect the different managements of different parts of the road, first in Scotland, and then I went into England. In the year 1798, I came to live in England, at Bristol. I have no documents to prove my travelling before I came to reside in England in the year 1798. In 1798 I began to make it a sort of business. Without saying to any one what my object was, I travelled all over the country in different parts. I have a list of such of those places I travelled to that I happened to keep memorandums of, but I cannot possibly say all the places I travelled to.

How long were you occupied in travelling for the purpose of obtaining information for the construction of roads?—It was only occasional travelling of course. I had some other occupations and private affairs to look into. I began in the year 1798 to travel as often as I had leisure and convenience down to the time I took the charge of the Bristol roads, down to the year 1816, the beginning of 1816 or latter end of the year 1815.

What was the result of your observations and inquiry of the state of the roads?—I found the roads were extremely bad in all parts of Great Britain, as far back as the year 1798, and that very little improvement took place in them between that time and the year 1815, which I attributed to the ignorance of the persons who had the charge of them, the ignorance of the surveyors, the total want of science.

What were the objections which you found?—I found the materials so applied that the roads were all loose, and carriages, instead of passing over the roads, ploughed them; that was the general fault of the roads, and the loose state of the materials, I apprehend, was owing to the bad selection, the bad appropriation, and the unskilful laying of them. I came to that conclusion first, from observing that in some parts of the country where things were better managed, there were better roads; and I instanced the roads between Cross and Bridgewater, in Somersetshire; there I saw a better road than in most other parts of the country, and having inquired into their management, I found that they prepared their materials better. The next improvement that I saw in roads, was at Kendal, in Westmoreland, where I think the same result proceeded from the same cause. That led me to the conclusion, that under a better system of management a better road would be produced; and having gone to every part of the country, and inquired into the manner in which they made the roads, I formed a theory in my own mind. This theory I got leave to put in practice by being appointed to the care of the Bristol roads, of which I was a commissioner in January 1816.

Did you make any inquiry into the expenditure of money upon those roads, that you found in so bad a state?—I did.

What was the result of that inquiry?—I generally found that the expense was in proportion to the badness of the roads, not to their good quality, but as the roads were bad and badly managed the expense increased, and I found few roads that were not deeply in debt and in distress for money.

In what did the improvident expenditure consist?—I think principally in carting great quantities of unprepared materials, and putting them into the roads where they were not wanted; that was one source of needless expense; and then the materials being put in so bad a state did not last; the road went soon to pieces. I believe there was a great deal of other kind of prodigality, of a worse character than carelessness.

Did you find a larger quantity of materials put in the road than was necessary?—I did, in most instances; a much larger quantity than was necessary.

Did you discover, in any of the roads, that there were materials sufficient, if raised, to make a good road, without putting on the additional, quantity?—In a very great number, I think the greater number, I found a sufficient quantity of materials for giving them one good making, without any further addition.

Were these the whole of your observations on the state of the roads?—No. It is not very easy to explain to gentlemen, exactly, the particulars that I know to be wrong in roads; I found the water-ways, and things connected with keeping the roads dry, exceedingly neglected in the country.

Be so good as to state what defects you observed in the construction of the roads, besides those you have already mentioned?—I think the water-ways were extremely neglected, and the roads in general were covered with water, and many of them standing in wet. It was a practice formerly to dig a trench when they made the new road. There was a hollow way, and a great deal of the bad quality of roads in general was owing to the circumstance that the road was standing in water. I think that was one very great error formerly; but the roads were made upon no principle; there seemed to be no object; the persons who made them did not seem to understand there was some object to be gained; they had no other idea of mending a road than bringing a great quantity of material, and shooting it on the ground. When a road got into entire disrepair, the next thing was to bring a quantity of the same kind of unprepared material, and to shoot it upon the road.

Did you find that they made use of bad material when a better was to be procured?—I found that to be very universally the case, that the tops of the quarries, and that to be easily procured, was taken in general, and the best stone left behind. I am afraid that is too much the custom in the country still.

Did you find they put these materials on the road in an unprepared and unfit state?—I did; they were not broken, nor in many cases cleaned.

Have you any thing further to state with regard to the construction of the road?—No; I do not recollect any thing further I can state.

What inquiry did you make into the management of the funds of the different trusts?—I made it a business to inquire generally of the surveyors, workmen, and people on the roads, as to the expense of materials, cartage, day-labour, and then I took what pains I could with gentlemen of the country, to inquire into the state of the funds: with surveyors and other officers of trusts, I found a jealousy and an unwillingness every where to give me information. An unauthorized individual finds it extremely difficult to procure information of that sort, and I found it so; a very great unwillingness to inform.

What class of persons did you find in the situation of surveyors on the road?—Always, I think, almost without exception, very low people, many of them old servants, ruined tradesmen, people without that kind of energy and character which I think is absolutely necessary for such a service.

Did you make any inquiry into the mode of the performance of statute labour?—Yes; I inquired very particularly about that, and I found the statute labour, when called for, was sent by the farmer to the roads, but the people seldom did above half a day’s work; and though the farmer lost the service of his servants and team, the public did not get it; it was a heavier oppression on the country than benefit to the roads.

Did you find, in collecting the materials, that there was any deficiency, or any mismanagement, on the part of those who superintended it?—I had very great reason to believe, that in most instances the country was imposed on.

Have you any knowledge of it?—No, I have no knowledge; I had no legal means of taking such measures as should have made me so certain as to be able to give evidence to it.

What extent of turnpike road is there in England and Wales?—On my first examination before a Committee of this House, I stated my opinion to be 25,000 miles; but I see, from a corrected state of the returns made to parliament, which I made out, that the number is 24,599 miles.

Do you know what sum is annually expended upon these roads?—The annual income has been ascertained by the same returns to be 1,282,715_l._

Can you state what part of the sum goes to the payment of the interest of the debt, and what is applied to the improvement of the road?—The mortgage debt in the kingdom is 6,036,502_l._; but there is a large sum due to treasurers, and balances of interest, which is also bearing interest, amounting to 569,041_l._ The whole debt that bears interest is 6,605,543_l._

What is the amount of tolls?—1,282,715_l._

What do you compute the expense of statute labour at?—I never have made any guess at it; for two reasons, statute labour is so difficult to guess at; and the proportion given to the turnpike roads is so different in different parts of the country, under local Acts, and under the general Act; but in the roads under my management it amounts to about five per cent. of the toll-duty.

Mr. _James MᶜAdam_, Examined.

Have you in any instance tried the experiment of converting paved streets into roads?—I have in several instances taken up small pieces of pavement that I found upon the several road trusts, and substituted road. In the town of Stamford I took a piece up of considerable extent, which is now road instead of the pavement.

What has been the effect of the conversion of the pavement into road?—The expense has considerably diminished, and facility of travelling very considerably increased.

Has any suggestion been made to you of converting the pavement of any part of the streets of London into road?—I have been ordered, by the Parliamentary commissioners having charge of Westminster Bridge, to prepare an estimate and report, with a view to convert that pavement into a broken stone road, which documents I have furnished; and I have reason to believe that the same will be immediately carried into effect. I have been also directed by the trustees and proprietors of St. James’s square, to prepare (which I have done) the same documents, with a view to substitute a broken stone road in St. James’s square, in lieu of the present pavement.

What is your opinion of the effect that would be found from its being carried into execution in all the streets of London, as to the reduction of expense, and benefit generally to the public?—I consider that the expense would be most materially reduced; the convenience of passing over the surface, there could be no doubt, would be generally facilitated, and made more convenient, particularly in the great leading streets, such as Piccadilly, Pall-mall, Parliament street and Whitehall, and others of that description; the expense of the same weight of stone now put upon those streets as pavement would be obtained at infinitely less expense, in a different form, for the purpose of road-making.

Is it your plan to raise the present pavement, and convert that pavement into materials for making the road, or to bring new materials and dispose of the pavement?—For Westminster Bridge I recommended to the trustees to sell the present pavement, because as long as pavements continue to be generally used, stone in that shape and size will always be valuable, and the same weight of granite I could obtain for the formation of the road over the bridge at 10_s._ 6_d._ per ton, the present pavement being worth a guinea per ton; but were the streets of London generally taken up, pavement would of course become of less value, and it might be broken for the formation of the roads.

Is that pavement of a quality calculated to make good roads?—The best material in the kingdom.

What proportion would the pavement now used in the streets of London bear to the materials necessary to the formation of the roads?—There would be sufficient for the formation of a strong durable road in the first instance; and I estimate that a supply of materials for the future care of the road, for a considerable time, would be left.

Would that answer in all the small streets of the metropolis as well as for the large and open streets?—I think not so well in the very narrow streets, which are liable to water, and where, from the width of the street, the thoroughfare must necessarily be upon one given spot. I beg, however, to observe, that the thoroughfare in those streets is extremely small.

Would the dust be increased or diminished by this alteration?—I consider, that upon a well made stone road, with the same care of cleansing and watering that is given to the streets, that the annoyance from dust would be infinitely less; and a road is more susceptible of retaining the water than pavement.

What would be the proportion of the annual expense between the paved street and the road?—Taking seven years, during which time I calculate that the pavement gets worn out, I should think the annual expense of the road would not be one fifth part, because in that seven years the whole value of the pavement is nearly lost.

What would be the effect produced upon the necessity of raising the road for the purpose of alteration of the pipes and other works under the street?—At present, when this operation is necessary, a paviour, whose wages are from five to six shillings a-day, is required. Were the streets converted into stone roads, a labourer at eighteen-pence a-day would perform the same service; and by due care in laying the materials on one side, and the earth on the other, the injury to the road would be extremely small, and the spot would very soon become obliterated; whereas in raising a part of a paved street it is quite impossible ever to unite the piece so raised with the rest of the pavement.

Supposing the pavement to be converted into a road, in that case, would it be necessary, when any pipe was repairing, to stop up the way to prevent carriages and horses passing?—Certainly not more so than at present, as that circumstance must always depend upon the width of the street. In very narrow streets, where the pipe lies in the centre, a large opening is necessary; it would follow as a matter of course that the street must be stopped; but upon large streets one side would be left free.

Would not a repair be more rapidly executed, supposing the way to be a road instead of a street?—Were the streets converted into roads, the repair of the roads would be almost unknown to the public, and no stoppage whatever would take place; the repair of such roads would be limited to a one-inch coat at a time, which would scarcely be known to persons passing in carriages, and the great inconvenience at present constantly felt in every part of this large metropolis by the necessity of repaving the streets would cease.

You assume that the roads for the streets in London must be made with granite?—Most assuredly, I should never recommend any other material to be made use of for the roads in the town.

Mr. _William MᶜAdam_, further Examined.