Part 10
Has there been any increase upon the tolls upon these roads?—Not since Mr. MᶜAdam has had any thing to do with them. I have every reason to suppose there will be a diminution, in consequence of the good state of the roads.
Having heard Mr. MᶜAdam’s evidence, can you give the Committee any further information with regard to the means by which these improvements have been effected?—I conceive that the mode of Mr. MᶜAdam has been the means of making the roads so much better, that it is only wonderful when we see it now, that it has not taken place sooner, being founded upon the best principle possible.
Can you state whether these improvements have taken place by the use of any new materials, or by a better application of the existing materials?—By the better application of the existing materials, certainly.
Have you found this improved system attended with any advantages, in regard to the employment of the poor within those parishes?—With regard to the parish where I live, and where my property is situated, I have seen considerable improvement, since we have had the opportunity of sending our poor to be employed by Mr. MᶜAdam, who has most readily employed every one we have sent; and I can state now, that we have not a man unemployed that I know of.
_Ezekiel Harman_, Esquire, called in and Examined.
You are a commissioner of the turnpike road upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.
Having heard the evidence of the last witness; can you, upon your own knowledge, confirm the testimony that he has given with regard to improvement of the roads within your trust under Mr. MᶜAdam’s inspection, and the advantages derived therefrom?—I can, certainly. It is a matter of surprise to me, that so material an alteration has been already made in the roads, the advantages of which are obvious to every one travelling the road; and, as an additional proof, the coachmen who are in the habit of driving that road have confirmed this statement. I have witnessed also a similar improvement in the Epsom road, where the forward state of the improvement shows an additional proof of the advantages derived from this system.
_Thomas Bridgman_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
Are you a commissioner upon the Cheshunt trust?—I am.
Having heard the evidence of the two last witnesses does your judgment in all respects confirm the testimony which they have given, in regard to the improvement which has taken place upon your roads, and the advantages derived from them?—Most assuredly. I have witnessed these roads for more than twenty years, in a variety of forms as a commissioner. I have observed, the failure of two or three different sets of coachmen and coach concerns down below, all of whom are now saying, that if this system continues they shall require a horse less. All these parties were originally much prejudiced against the new system.
_John Martin Cripps_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
You are a magistrate of the county of Surrey, and commissioner of the roads upon the Epsom trust?—I am.
Can you inform the Committee what was the state of the roads within your trust, previous to the year 1818?—They were very bad, having no attention paid to the formation of the road; having the water, in many places, going over the road; and great inattention paid to the breaking of the materials, and to the expense attending the carting of them.
At what time did you commence the alteration in the system of management?—At the latter end of December 1817, when the roads were put under the superintendence of Mr. MᶜAdam, senior, and when his son commenced the management.
What alterations have since taken place in the state of the roads?—By a newer formation of the road; the materials being properly broken; and the water carried under the road by trunks, or drains, with proper gratings.
Referring to the particulars of the expenditure given by Mr. MᶜAdam, jun. in his evidence this day, can you confirm the accuracy of those accounts?—Yes; and I can explain that the items for tradesmen’s bills include the wharfing and repairs of Bridges in each year; I can add, that the statute labour for 1815, 1816, and 1817, amounting to one hundred pounds each year, which Mr. MᶜAdam has not availed himself of in their improvements.
Had the system of management pursued by Mr. MᶜAdam proved the means of giving employment to labourers in the district, and thereby lessening the poor’s rates?—Very much so; and they have occasionally employed from twenty to thirty persons, stout able-bodied men, who otherwise would have been obliged to have been supported out of the parish rates.
Have you in consequence had any persons who were able to work who have been out of employ?—Between twenty and thirty persons have been employed for the last three months in breaking flints, and in repairing and improving the roads, who otherwise must have come upon the poor’s rates; and all the persons who have been enabled to work have found employment in consequence of this improvement; that has been the means of greatly relieving our poor’s rates.
Has the same system been extended to the private roads in that district?—It has been adopted in some of the private roads of that district, and with the same beneficial effects.
Can you state any particulars with regard to the necessity there has been for carting additional materials for these roads?—At present Mr. MᶜAdam having lifted the roads, has found more than sufficient material for the support of those roads.
What have been the materials that have been used?—The materials that have been used are flints chiefly.
During the state of improvement of these roads, have the tolls been increased or reduced within your trust?—At our last meeting, we agreed, that at the next letting, the tolls should be reduced from May next, for the benefit of agriculture in general; and that where two shillings and eight-pence is now paid, they will have now to pay one shilling; that with relation to the agricultural interest, will be a reduction of twenty five pounds per mile.
Within your own personal observation, have you known any other instance in which a road has been formed upon the same principles as those adopted by Mr. MᶜAdam?—I had an opportunity of observing in Sweden that the roads were more beautiful than any I ever beheld; they are formed in the same manner as by Mr. MᶜAdam, the materials broken extremely small. The material is the best in the world, as it is rocks of Granite; and so well do they understand the necessity of breaking them small, that you never behold throughout Sweden, a fragment of granite larger than the size of a walnut, for the purposes of the roads.
What is the shape of these roads?—To the eye they appear perfectly flat; but upon trial by the spirit level, there is a slight degree of convexity.
_William Dowdeswell_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
You are a commissioner upon the Epsom trust?—I am.
How long have you been a commissioner?—About four or five years.
Have you had any opportunity of observing the comparative state of the roads since they were put under the care of Mr. MᶜAdam, compared with that in which they were before?—They were very bad when first put under Mr. MᶜAdam’s care; they are now, I think, very good.
Do you attribute this to the improved system of management?—Totally.
Can you confirm the evidence that has been already given relative to the expenses of repairing the roads previously to that time and since?—From the statement made to me by the former surveyor, and from Mr. MᶜAdam’s statement, I believe the statements delivered in to you are perfectly correct. Considering the advantage which the public has derived from Mr. MᶜAdam’s system, I have adopted the same upon the parish roads. I offered myself to the parish as their surveyor, for the purpose of carrying that system into execution. I have found employment for all persons who wanted employment upon the parish roads, assisted occasionally by persons going to the public roads under Mr. MᶜAdam.
How long have you adopted this system upon the private roads?—Ever since October last.
From that period the whole of the poor have been employed upon the parish roads?—From that period the whole of the poor that wanted employment, have been employed upon the parish roads, or upon the public roads under Mr. MᶜAdam.
Have those persons been employed by you, by piece-work or by day-work?—The roads were in such a state, and as I wanted knowledge to employ by piece-work, I have been compelled to employ them by day-work.
From your experience are you of opinion that these private roads, made upon the new system which has been adopted, can be kept in good repair at a less expense than they formerly cost in their bad state?—At a very considerable less expense than formerly.
_Martis, 23º die Martii, 1819._
Mr. _Benjamin Farey_, called in; and Examined.
You are, I believe, the surveyor of the Whitechapel road?—I am.
How long have you been in that office?—Nine years.
In what situation did you find the road, at the time of your undertaking the management?—I found the Whitechapel road in a dreadful state, partly from the neglect of the surveyor, in laying on foul and improper materials. In the autumn of 1809, it was almost impassable.
Gravel is the only material you have in that neighbourhood?—Gravel is the only material we find, on or near the spot.
Is the traffic upon the Whitechapel road so great as to render it impossible to preserve it in good order with the present materials?—It is impossible to preserve it in good order at all times, with the present materials; it is past the art of man.
Do you consider the traffic upon that road, as greater than upon any other road out of London?—I believe it is a heavier traffic; there are not so many light carriages, as on some other roads.
What species of carriages do you consider do the most injury to your road?—The carriages that do the most injury, are those with the widest wheels.
In what way do you consider that they injure the road?—By their great weights destroying the materials.
Are the carriages you allude to, exempt from the payment of tolls?—They pay much less tolls. The pressure, or crushing of materials by the wide wheels, is owing to the wheels not running flat.
Being of a conical shape?—Being of a barrelled and conical shape, and the middle tire projecting above the others, with rough nails.
Do you consider, that if those wheels were made of a cylindrical or flat shape, it would be good policy to grant them any exemption from tolls?—They would be less injurious for being cylindrical; but whenever the road was at all out of the level, and the weight came on one edge of the wheel, the road would be destroyed there.
Upon the whole, is it your opinion that there are any circumstances which justify an exemption from toll, on account of the breadth of the wheels?—I do not see any at all, for I think they are injurious in every sense, on account of the great weights they carry.
Do you consider that injury is done to the roads, in consequence of the use of single shafts in waggons?—Very great.
In what way?—In consequence of single shafts, the horses follow in one track, in the centre of the carriage; and the wheels also follow each other in other tracks, and cut ruts: if there were double shafts, they would naturally avoid former wheel-tracks, which would be less injurious to the road.
Do you consider it therefore desirable to give encouragement to double shafts?—I do.
Do you consider the watering of that road in any way injurious?—I consider that watering that road in summer, is very injurious.
In what respect?—The water separates the stones, owing to the softening of the loam, and makes the road spongy and loose.
At what periods do you consider it injurious to water the road for laying the dust?—Before May and after August.
Have you not a practice of sometimes watering in winter, when there is no dust?—After the most careful sifting of the gravel, a small quantity of loamy dirt will unavoidably still adhere to the stones, and this loam, together with a glutinous matter which accumulates in the summer from the dung and urine of the cattle (which accumulation the summer watering has a tendency to increase) occasions the wheels to stick to the materials, in certain states of the road, in spring and autumn, when it is between wet and dry, particularly in heavy foggy weather, and after a frost; by which sticking of the wheels, the Whitechapel road is often, in a short time, dreadfully torn and loosened up; and it is for remedying this evil, that I have, for more than eight years past, occasionally watered the road in winter. As soon as the sticking and tearing up of the materials is observed to have commenced, several water-carts are employed upon these parts of the road, to wet the loamy and glutinous matters so much, that they will no longer adhere to the tire of the wheels, and to allow the wheels and feet of the horses to force down and again fasten the gravel stones; the traffic, in the course of four to twenty-four hours after watering, forms such a sludge on the surface, as can be easily raked off by wooden scrapers, which is performed as quickly as possible; after which the road is hard and smooth, the advantages of this practice of occasional winter watering have been great; and it might, I am of opinion, be adopted with like advantages on the other entrances into London, or wherever else the traffic is great, and the gravel stones are at times observed to be torn up by the sticking of the wheels.
In what state of the road are you in the habit of laying on fresh materials?—I prefer laying on materials immediately after the road has had a scraping, in consequence of there being upon the surface of the road a small quantity of dirty matter and broken gravel, which then form a sort of cement for the gravel to fix in.
You consider it advantageous to lay on the materials when the road is wet?—I do, because the gravel adheres closer.
Considering the very great traffic upon the Whitechapel road, is it your opinion that it would be advantageous to pave any part of that road?—I think it would be desirable to pave it, within some feet of the footpath more particularly.
What breadth from the sides of that road would you consider it desirable to have paved?—About eleven or twelve feet from the footpath.
You would consider it a desirable plan to pave the sides of that road in preference to the centre?—Certainly.
For what reasons?—If the centre was paved, the light carriages would be very much annoyed; when the gravel road was good on the sides, the heavy carriages would go there, and the light carriages would be driven on the stones from the sides again; if the centre was paved the carters would be obliged to walk on that road to manage their horses, and would be considerably annoyed by carriages, horsemen, &c. passing: but if the sides of that road were paved, the carters would be enabled to walk on the footpath and to manage their horses without annoyance.
What is the shape of road which, from your experience, you would give the preference to?—I would have the road barrelled, and made so as that it would convey off the water in the severe weather in winter, when the roads are generally bad.
Which do you give the preference to, a road with a flat surface, or one that gradually declines from the centre?—I think a road which gradually declines from the centre is by far the most preferable, decidedly so.
What is the degree of the declivity or fall which you would recommend as the most desirable?—I have paid particular attention to the Whitechapel road, where it is of the width of 55 feet, and the fall from the centre to the sides is 12 inches; but to attain this shape, when the road is worn down, when first covered with gravel, there should be a fall not exceeding from 16 to 18 inches from the centre to the sides. [_The witness delivered in a cross section of the road._]
Is it your opinion that any parliamentary regulation with regard to stage coaches is necessary for preventing injury to the road?—None.
You think it desirable that they should remain as at present?—Yes.
What is the state of the Whitechapel road now, as compared with what it was some years ago?—During the greater part of the year, it is now one of the most pleasant roads out of London to travel upon; but from the gravel being small and brittle, it is soon worn down, by the great number of heavy weights passing on it. With the small gravel we have in the neighbourhood of Whitechapel, the road at times breaks up, and becomes in a bad state; but by the application of water, to stop the sticking of the wheels, and separate the sludge, in two days they are found in a good state again.
Have you any other suggestion to make to the Committee for the improvement of that road, or of roads in general?—On that road, very great improvement might be made, in not allowing the wide wheels to pass by paying so little toll, or to carry so great weights as at present; if the narrow-wheeled waggons were to use double shafts, they would be less injurious to the roads: even with narrow-wheeled carts, if the two fore-horses were double, the shafts not being in their track, it would be less injurious to the roads.
_John Farey_, Esquire, called in; and Examined.
What is your profession?—I am a mineral surveyor and engineer.
Have you turned your attention to the state of the roads in the different districts of the kingdom?—I have, very particularly.
Can you furnish the Committee with any information with regard to the state of those roads, as compared with former years?—I can; I have particularly attended to that subject; more especially in the time of the late duke of Bedford, for whom I was an agent. I have since been employed in nearly every part of England and Wales, and also in Scotland: and I have statements by me of the various observations I have made.
You have been employed under the late duke of Bedford, in the improvement of the roads in the neighbourhood of Woburn?—In the management of his roads in Bedfordshire, and of all his rural works.
Describe what improvement of the main road has taken place under your direction, in Woburn?—The whole of the line of the road through Woburn, except about three hundred yards in different places, is on a very strong alluvial clay: the road passes over naked sand, only for three hundred yards; this road had been rendered so sandy and so bad, entirely by bringing soft sand-stone out of Buckinghamshire, at three miles carriage, upon the average, in Woburn, and some of that stone was brought almost to the end of Hockliff Town, where the best gravel abounds. It appeared, from the remains of a number of gravel pits, that there had been formerly a great deal of gravel dug in Woburn; this circumstance I mentioned to the duke of Bedford, and he desired search to be made; and it was ascertained that Woburn might furnish gravel enough, adequate to any purpose. In consequence of which, his Grace directed, when the labourers were much in want of employment, that the poor persons should be employed in preparing a great quantity of gravel for the purposes of this turnpike road. I undertook to direct the taking of this gravel out, and to level the siftings and dirt in a uniform manner, and lay all the soil again upon the top; by which means the land was in no degree injured, but, in fact, considerably benefited, by being loosened to that depth. A great many hundreds of cubic yards of clean-sifted and picked gravel were prepared in numerous square stacks, and the trustees at a meeting, or else their clerk, were informed, that this gravel his Grace offered to the road at the mere cost of labour, without any thing for the gravel, or the temporary damage to the occupiers of the land. After a long time of hesitation, the trustees or their clerk returned an answer, that they did not like that mode, alleging that their surveyor ought to be allowed to dig materials where and how he liked, and they would not have this gravel: it lay there, some of it for two or three years, upon the land. In that time a number of private roads were making of his Grace’s, and a good deal of it was used on these. The main road became progressively worse and worse, and the post-office caused the parish to be indicted. I was then surveyor, and made an application to the trustees, stating the circumstances the road was under: that road-trust is thirteen miles in length, two of which, or rather more, are in the parish of Woburn; there is a toll-gate in the parish which the inhabitants are liable to all the toll of; some of them, even in going and returning to and from their fields: the trustees had exacted very strictly _the half_ of the statute duty, although the parish had, I think, eleven miles of private roads to maintain. I mention this circumstance to show there was no default on the part of the parish; and it was afterwards proved, that they had done their duty; the trustees merely laughed at the application, and said, that they had nothing to do with it: we must repair the road, and till we did so, they would not lay out a farthing upon our road. It happened, very fortunately for the parish of Woburn, that their act was very nearly out, and they applied for a new one; the parish opposed it, stating, that the trustees had misapplied the tolls, and praying, that the part of the road, through Woburn, should be taken out of their management; the act accordingly directed, that two-thirteenths of the tolls should be paid over to the parish surveyors of Woburn, and the trustees were not to call for any statute duty, or interfere in the management of this part of the road; in consequence of this, the gravel mentioned, which remained, and great quantities dug on purpose, was used upon the road, in a sufficient quantity at once, so as to admit of its settling down together; for it wanted lining nine inches thick, or more, and the road has since been perfectly good.
_Jovis, 25º die Martii, 1819._
_John Farey_, Esquire, called in; and Examined,
In effecting the improvement of the Woburn road, did you make use of any particular mode of applying the gravel?—The gravel, before the time of using it, had been very clean-sifted, and separated from the dirt and sand; the great stones had been picked out, and such of the flints which were of a long and irregular shape, in order that they might be broken. After laying the gravel upon the road men were daily employed to rake the gravel into the ruts, and, at the same time, to carefully pick off the surface any stones that were either soft or improperly shaped, like long flints, or too large.
What is your opinion, in regard to the form the most preferable for turnpike roads?—A small convexity in the middle.
Will you state the fall, in any given width of road, that you would prefer?—Referring to my brother, Mr. Benjamin Farey’s evidence, I agree with him in wishing that the section which he produced, might be received by the Committee, as an answer to this question.