did. He had a car; he took them, I think to Anna Ray house and tried

to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. If he was later together with Lee Oswald, I do not have any idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. MELLER. I do not--if I say surprised or was shocked when President Kennedy was assassinated: I was shocked. I was in such sorrow that I could not explain to you. I do not have enough English words in my vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when I find out it was Lee Harvey, I was completely shocked. I was completely out of my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it could happen to us. It was terrible shock; I could not explain to you. We could not believe at first at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were very surprised when you heard it was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. MELLER. We could not believe he will do things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir; three times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three times?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, sir--oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name but it was three times together.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you once?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the Dallas police force?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas police officers?

Mrs. MELLER. Yes, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her fault, or what?

Mrs. MELLER. It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard from somebody that he beat Marina and he did one time, I think even Marina told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through and she has to put new lamp in it. He demanded when the master is home the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina told you that?

Mrs. MELLER. I think she told me that or somebody from our group; I do not recall who, but I remember that and I was shocked. I thought that something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat her.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw or talked to either Oswald or Marina at anytime after the party at the Ford residence around Christmas time, 1962?

Mrs. MELLER. No, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that right?

Mrs. MELLER. No, sir; never and probably passed 1 year and 2 months since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. When it happened--when the assassination happened, it passed 12 to 14 months.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not hear that they had moved from Dallas to New Orleans and back to Dallas?

Mrs. MELLER. Nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. It was the last time at Ford's family.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any more questions, Mrs. Meller. If you can think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead.

Mrs. MELLER. Would love if I remember but so far I try to think if I did not forget anything. I do not think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. I want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down and giving us the testimony you have and the Commission appreciates it very much. You have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you very much.

Mrs. MELLER. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ELENA A. HALL

The testimony of Elena A. Hall was taken at 5 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?

Mrs. HALL. I sure do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. This is Albert Jenner. We are both of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

The Staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority which has been granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

It is my understanding that Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. Did you receive that letter?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. With that letter were included copies of those documents referred to, isn't that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you today about your knowledge of Lee and Marina Oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of your association with them after they returned, after Oswald returned from Russia sometime in 1962. I understand that your association with Oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at approximately Easter of 1963?

Mrs. HALL. Yes, that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, will you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. HALL. Elena A. Hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Mr. John R. Hall, isn't that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Mr. Hall operate a dental laboratory in Fort Worth, isn't that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born in Iran? In what town?

Mrs. HALL. Tehran.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mrs. HALL. 1926.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is the Commission's understanding that your parents were originally from Russia, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did they move to Tehran?

Mrs. HALL. 1920 or 1921.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Russia had they lived prior to that time?

Mrs. HALL. The last in Baku.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your parents to leave Russia and go to Tehran?

Mrs. HALL. The Communists. When the Communists started in, my father was over in the Russian Army in Siberia. He was a prisoner, and after he got out, he escaped, they came back. I mean they came to Iran.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they eventually move to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. No; my mother was here in 1960, but she came just to visit and went back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they still living in Tehran?

Mrs. HALL. No; both are dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. Both are dead?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the United States, if you would.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I worked for 10 years. I worked for dentists, and I knew a little bit of laboratory work. Then I decided to continue and have some kind of diploma, and that is why I came to the United States.

My best friends, they were coming to the United States. So they told me that there are some technology schools here in the United States that I can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why I came to New York and was in the dental technology school where I met John. So he wanted--instead of going back, I married him and came to Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to the United States, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1957?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us briefly what your educational background was in Tehran before you moved to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. High-school education. I was 6 years in French school and 5 years in Russian school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you specialize in any special field during your education?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a general education?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you married your husband in New York and subsequently moved to Dallas, or Fort Worth----

Mrs. HALL. We were married in Fort Worth and I came here.

Mr. LIEBELER. During your husband's testimony, he said that you were first married in 19----

Mrs. HALL. 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were subsequently divorced and then remarried again in November of 1962, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually meet Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us in your own words and to the best of your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. Go right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the Oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. I will interrupt you as little as possible.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I was working for Patterson Porcelain Laboratory at that time when I met Oswald. Mrs. George Bouhe brought them to our house. At that time I was by myself. John wasn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you and your husband divorced at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; we were. George Bouhe, that is, thought that I could do something for Marina because she had a missing tooth, and I told him that I will try. Then I asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do with that little money that George Bouhe offered. He offered $50 to $75, and said, "I will pay for it," but it was much more than that, so I could do nothing. And that was the first time I met him. It was sometime in July, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of 1962?

Mrs. HALL. In July of 1962. After that I saw her, how poor they were. They really didn't have anything. She didn't have any clothes. So I told my friends, married friends, couple of them. They gave the money. And I asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. And in this way I start to learn sometimes--give her some money or buy her some clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you give Marina money from time to time?

Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't give her money. I bought clothes for her. George Bouhe gave them money and other people. I bought her clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you money besides Mr. Bouhe?

Mrs. HALL. Mrs. Patterson, the lady that I worked for. I mean my employer's wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her first name?

Mrs. HALL. Loraine Patterson.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much money did she give you, do you remember?

Mrs. HALL. I don't remember. It was $10, or $15.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much did Bouhe give you?

Mrs. HALL. Twenty dollars.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received that money to buy groceries for Marina, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. No; it was only for her clothes while they were living in Fort Worth, and I mean not in my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else give you any money for the Oswalds?

Mrs. HALL. No; I spent myself, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. For them?

Mrs. HALL. For them, yes. I didn't buy groceries there at that time. I bought little toys for the little girl, but I never did buy groceries until they moved to my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you estimate approximately how much money altogether you have spent for Marina's clothes, and such items as that before they moved out of the apartment in Fort Worth?

Mrs. HALL. My money or just general?

Mr. LIEBELER. Altogether. You said that you thought Bouhe had given you $20?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mrs. Patterson, $10 or $15, so that would have been $30 or $35?

Mrs. HALL. I spent probably $25 or $30 myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it would be $50 to $60?

Mrs. HALL. Something like that, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead with your story.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime because it was very close to my work. They lived not very far from my work. And then after they--I think he lost his job in Fort Worth and he decided that there is better opportunity here in Dallas, to move.

And they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with the child, not having a job and apartment, so I suggested, "Why don't you move to my house while he is in Dallas until he finds a job, and then you can move?" So that's what they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina moved to your house while Oswald was in Dallas looking for a job?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when Marina moved to your house?

Mrs. HALL. It was in the first week in October. I don't know exactly when it was, but it was the first week in October, sometime.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you helped Marina move from the apartment in Fort Worth to your house in a pickup truck that you borrowed?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; Patterson had a pickup truck.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody else help you, or just you and Marina did the moving?

Mrs. HALL. Lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to Dallas that night, that afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody besides you and Marina and Lee that helped you with the moving?

Mrs. HALL. No; nobody else. They didn't have nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't very much to move?

Mrs. HALL. No; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. And then the first time when George went----

Mr. LIEBELER. George Bouhe?

Mrs. HALL. He saw this situation. He bought a little bed for the child and a couple of other things. He helped them very much. He was very nice about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to appreciate what Mr. Bouhe was doing for him?

Mrs. HALL. I don't think so. He didn't appreciate nothing, never. In fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on Saturday, I don't remember when, George Bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so Lee came and he asked Marina, "Who brought all these groceries?" And he saw in the kitchen----

Mr. LIEBELER. This was while Marina was living at your house?

Mrs. HALL. While she was, yes. And said, "George Bouhe has bought," and he was real mad at him. He said, "You are living in her house, you are not living in his house. Why he brings groceries?" He was just strange man, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that Marina lived at your house, did you purchase all the groceries and similar items for Marina and the child except for what Mr. Bouhe brought?

Mrs. HALL. Well, nobody else would do it. She was living in my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support of the family at that time?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he offer to contribute?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us about how long Marina lived in your house?

Mrs. HALL. Well, she lived, I said in the first week in October they moved, she moved there. And then I had an accident in the middle of October and I stayed in the hospital 10 days. When I got out from the hospital, I think it was in the end of October, after my accident, I stayed home, I think, 3 or 4 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; she was there. Then I went to New York on the 31st of October. I went to New York, and when I came back on the 15th, they were gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know exactly when they moved out?

Mrs. HALL. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald lived in your house with Marina at any time that you were gone to New York or in the hospital?

Mrs. HALL. That--not that I know. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with Marina?

Mrs. HALL. I saw her after that time. I saw her only on Christmas one day and Easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about the past.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where Oswald lived at first when he moved to Dallas from Fort Worth?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I heard that he lived in YMCA.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mrs. HALL. I heard from two friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who particularly told you?

Mrs. HALL. Yes, Mrs. Clark.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Max Clark?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. And I think George Bouhe told me, or at least George Bouhe suggested him to stay in YMCA.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place that Oswald might have lived when he first went to Dallas other than the YMCA?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at any time in Dallas?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and I thought I bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the sewing machine. So we went the first day of Easter again. John's parents lived in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband?

Mrs. HALL. Mother and father, they live here. And we went the second time and I brought the sewing machine. That was only twice I saw them after they moved from my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether or not Marina used the sewing machine?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see her using it?

Mrs. HALL. No; I didn't see her using it, but after that when I brought it, I opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just sewing on it, and I just closed it and I never did touch it again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any clothes that Marina made with the sewing machine?

Mrs. HALL. She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina know how to use the sewing machine?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think. She told me she could. I never did see her sewing, but she said she could.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat her all the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Beat her?

Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina, what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you remember exactly when that was?

Mrs. HALL. In July. Sometime in July.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it wasn't until October or November----

Mrs. HALL. October when she moved.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a result of her husband beating her, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time in October that Marina lived in your house, did she discuss with you her marital relations with Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, she is, I think she is very nice girl. And I told her, "Marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better financial situation, you can have them." And she said, "Well, I don't know."

And I told her, "If you want to, I have a lady doctor, Dr. Taylor. If you want me, I will take you there. She will give you some things." And she said, "No; I don't think so."

She said, "Our married life is so strange that I don't think I ever will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina indicate at that time that she and Oswald did not have normal sexual relations.

Mrs. HALL. Very seldom. The thing that she told me, "Very seldom."

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me everything that you can remember about that subject that Marina told you.

Mrs. HALL. That was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only thing she told me.

And I said, "If you think you want any more." So it is none of my business, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that all that Marina said about that subject?

Mrs. HALL. We didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you that Oswald would--was not very much of a man in that sense?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. That is what she told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. They very seldom had sexual relations?

Mrs. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that question with her any other time?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Lee and Marina were getting along with each other at the time that Marina lived in your house, other than what we have already talked about?

Mrs. HALL. No. Couple of times I told her, "Why do you argue with him about little things," and she said, "Oh, because he is not a man." That is what she told me. For instance, I like hot peppers and he didn't like it. Well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers. John doesn't like it at all. And at the table they were eating, and I ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "He is afraid of everything, hot peppers."

And he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. And after he left I said, Marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some people like them and some don't."

Well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an argument. Probably if I wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Marina was a good wife to Oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a good wife?

Mrs. HALL. Well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep 48 hours a day. That is the only thing. And maybe they had trouble because of this and little things, like I said about the peppers and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see or hear of Marina making fun of Oswald in front of other people?

Mrs. HALL. Who?

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina making fun of Lee?

Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes; she would do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any specific examples?

Mrs. HALL. She always was complaining about him. He was not a man. He is afraid. I don't know, not complete, I guess, or something like that. Not complete man.

Mr. LIEBELER. This may not seem to be too important, but we are not just curious, it might have a bearing on the Commission's determination of what kind of man Oswald was and what kind of person he was.

Did Marina make fun of Oswald's sexual inability in front of other people, or was it a more general thing?

Mrs. HALL. Generally. I never heard sexual nothing; no. Only when I asked her about this, she told me. And that was, we don't talk any more about this. I didn't hear it. Maybe somebody else did. I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling, I gather from what you said, that if there were difficulties in the Oswald marriage, they were not entirely Lee Oswald's fault? It also would be some of the fault of Marina?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your opinion?

Mrs. HALL. I think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear them argue about politics?

Mrs. HALL. No, sir; I never did discuss politics because I saw the Marx books and everything on his table, and I never did even go to a conversation with him. But sometimes I would ask her, "How is life in Russia?"

And well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would get mad at her. "That is not true. They have everything." And so on. And she would tell, I guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life in Russia than Marina did?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that a common thing for them to argue about?

Mrs. HALL. Well, they didn't argue, but when I was asking questions, she would tell the truth, and he would say, "No; that is not true in Russia. It is better" something. Not all the people think----

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned these books that you saw in Oswald's apartment. Do you remember any specific names of these books or magazines that you saw?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't, but I know some of them belonged to the downtown library, Fort Worth Library.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether these books related to particular subject matter? Were they books about Marxism and that sort of thing?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You do remember that?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I remember one of the books was real thick and black, I think. I don't remember any names.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember the specific names of any of the books?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Lee Oswald in Russian?

Mrs. HALL. All the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of his ability to use the Russian language?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?

Mrs. HALL. Very good. I think he talked very good Russian. He could read and write and everything. And he, in fact, a few times I told him, I said, Lee, why don't you speak in English with Marina and let her learn English?"

And he said, "No. Then I am forgetting my Russian." I said, "You don't need the Russian language now in the United States. She needs English."

And he said, "No, I won't." He never will talk English to her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also speak to Marina in Russian?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of command of Russian did she have? How well could she speak Russian?

Mrs. HALL. Very well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was she better able to speak Russian than Lee Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. But in your opinion, Lee did have a good command of the Russian language?

Mrs. HALL. Very good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it grammatically correct, would you say?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your own command of the Russian language good, would you say?

Mrs. HALL. I thought it was good, and I think it is good, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What language did you learn as a child?

Mrs. HALL. Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that was the first language you spoke, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. We spoke Russian in our home, and I was in French school. Then I was in Russian school again.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also speak French?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your language in Iran? Iranian?

Mrs. HALL. Armenian. And I think----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Turkish?

Mrs. HALL. Turkish a little bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to speak to Marina Oswald in English?

Mrs. HALL. No; I never did. I wasn't so long with her to try to teach her something.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was quite clear to you, was it, that Marina could not speak English at all?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; she could understand a little bit what the conversations was about, if I was talking to somebody. But she couldn't understand all little things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you first met Marina, you say, in approximately July of 1962. Did you have an opinion as to how much English she could understand at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think it was the same thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't seem to learn too much English as time went on, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Well, George Bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her books and things like that. And once a week or twice a week she was sending her homework or something to him. He would correct her and sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. That was all that I know that she has of English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Peter Gregory?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know his son, Paul?

Mrs. HALL. No; I never met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever speak of Paul Gregory to you?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Gary Taylor?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. Well, one time Lee, while Marina was in my house--in fact, I just came out from the hospital accident--this Gary Taylor and his wife, they brought Lee. It was on Sunday. They brought him to Fort Worth, and then they went back together, Lee Oswald and the Taylors.

Mr. LIEBELER. Gary Taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of George De Mohrenschildt, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know him well, or are you a casual acquaintance of his?

Mrs. HALL. I saw him altogether maybe three or four times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to De Mohrenschildt about Lee Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. I don't think I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether De Mohrenschildt was a close friend of Oswald's?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. Some friends told me again that they are very close with Lee Oswald. Well, in 1 week, because they couldn't go nowhere and didn't have a car, and De Mohrenschildt came for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald drive an automobile?

Mrs. HALL. No. In fact, one time I asked Oswald. I said, talking something about the car, and I said, asked him, "Can you drive a car?" And he said, "No".

I said "How come?"

He said, "Well, I just can't." And I said, "Every kid in high school can drive a car. How come you can't?"

And he said, "Well, I just can't."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of Oswald learning how to drive a car?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Mr. Bouhe asked you if you could help in getting Marina's teeth fixed. Do you know whether Marina ever did get her teeth fixed?

Mrs. HALL. Well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and George Bouhe made an appointment for her here in Baylor. And the few times she came--and extracted them and came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you who paid for this work to be done?

Mrs. HALL. No; she did not tell me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who paid for it?

Mrs. HALL. No. Maybe George Bouhe did, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Marina about religion?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. While she was in my house, she asked one time, she said, "Elena. I want to baptize my baby." She said, "Well, I was baptized. My grandmother baptized me, but when I talk about religion and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the baby." And I called Father Dimitri here in Dallas, and it is Greek Orthodox Church, and I told him the situation and who they are, and she wanted baby baptized. And he said, that is fine, so I took her one night, her and the baby, and we--I am a godmother of the child. And, of course, when Lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of course, didn't like it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything, specifically that he said about that?

Mrs. HALL. No. Marina told me when I saw her at Christmas--I asked her, and she said, of course, he didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that at Christmastime in 1962, you went over to Oswald's apartment in Dallas, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Me, Marina, and the child--Lee----

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what the discussion was at that time? What did you talk about? Do you have any recollection?

Mrs. HALL. Well, when we went in, they didn't have any Christmas tree, no nothing. And I looked and I said, "Where is your Christmas tree?" And Lee said, "What Christmas tree?" And I said, "Well, everybody has a Christmas tree." And Lee said, "No; we don't have Christmas tree."

Then John started to talk with him about religion. I think it was Christmastime, yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a commercialized holiday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband said in response to that remark by Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. No; but I don't remember whether it was at that time or at Easter when John talked with him and said, "Well, we sometimes come to Dallas to go to church. If you want to, they will come and--we will come and take you with us." And he said, "No; not me. If Marina wants, she can go with you."

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald indicated that he himself did not care to go to Church?

Mrs. HALL. He said no; he wouldn't, but if Marina wants, he didn't believe in nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever go to church with you and your husband?

Mrs. HALL. No; she never did go. Well, I never did see them after Easter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know after Marina moved out of your house where she went?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess they had an apartment at Elsbeth.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, they moved to an apartment on Elsbeth Street, and she stayed there with Lee until subsequently Lee moved around the corner to an apartment on Neely Street, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when we went there on Christmas, we went to Elsbeth. And the second time the landlord told me that they moved a couple of blocks from it, so we went there on Eastertime.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that Marina moved out of the apartment on Elsbeth Street shortly after she returned to Lee and shortly after she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in Dallas?

Mrs. HALL. I think they had an argument and she left one night and she went, I think, to Meller's house and she stayed there. That is everything I hear. I don't know exactly, but through a friend you just hear things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any direct knowledge of that instance?

Mrs. HALL. No; I mean I wasn't in touch with them at all, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's go back to the time that you went to Oswald's apartment at Christmastime. Do you remember anything else that was discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as to what the conversation was?

Mrs. HALL. With him?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; with him or with Marina.

Mrs. HALL. John was asking him a question, how does he like his work. And does he learn something. And sometimes he can go into business for himself. And so he said, "No; I never think that I will go to business for myself."

And he said something about security, I don't have any security here on my job. I don't know if I am still there another week or so. And he said something about Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did that seem to concern Oswald that he didn't know how long he was going to have his job?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; he was concerned about that. And he said in Russia you don't have to worry about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate that he wanted to go to Russia?

Mrs. HALL. No; well, he never did say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that he had a desire to return to the Soviet Union?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think if he would have money, he would go back, but she never did want to go back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you about that?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I was telling her--she said the life is so bad there. Bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. They don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. She missed her--she don't have relatives--I think she has only, I mean she don't have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "Sometimes I miss them but I wouldn't like to go back and live."

Mr. LIEBELER. She never at anytime indicated any desire to return to Russia; is that right?

Mrs. HALL. In fact, I had the impression that she married him only to just get out from that place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get that impression?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I don't know, because I don't think she ever loved him.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say that, Mrs. Hall? What do you base that statement on?

Mrs. HALL. Well, because they had arguments from the time they were married, I think, and the little things she said, and seems like she never did like him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she ever tell you specifically that she married Oswald to come to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. No; she never did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with your friend as to whether or not Marina married him to get to come to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. I think I mentioned to somebody. I don't remember who.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in the Russian community in Dallas that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald, or do you?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't know what they thought.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that on Easter you went to the Oswalds to take a gift to the baby, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Just Lee and Marina and the baby and yourself and your husband?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what the conversations were between you at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Well, it was about church again. John said, "if you want, we will take you." Not much at all. We didn't stay very long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was any--was there any further conversation about Oswald's job or desire to go back to Russia that you can remember?

Mrs. HALL. Well, about job. While John and Lee were talking, Marina told, "Did he tell you?" And I said, "Tell me what?" She said that he lost his job. And I said, "No, he didn't tell me." She said, "One of those things." "He never tells anybody about himself." And then I found out he lost his job. He is not working any more. And I said, "What are you doing all day long?" And her face was rather, she had sunburn. "Where did you get that sunburn?" "Well, all day we go fish." There was a little bitty place on Elsbeth Street, and she said, "We just fish all day and eat trout. Fish and eat."

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was not working at that time?

Mrs. HALL. No; he wasn't working.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know where he worked in Dallas when he had a job?

Mrs. HALL. He was in kind of picture printing company, or I don't know, printing pictures or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection, all the conversation that occurred at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was the last time you saw Lee Oswald, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to New Orleans, Mrs. Hall?

Mrs. HALL. I didn't know it. I heard it again that they moved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mrs. HALL. I think Mrs. Max Clark.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband about the fact that the Oswald's had left for New Orleans?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think I mentioned to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said and what you said?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't think we said anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what your husband told you when you heard that Oswald had gone to New Orleans, that your husband, John, thought that Oswald was on his way back to Russia, that he had gone to New Orleans to take passage on a ship to Russia?

Mrs. HALL. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection of that conversation?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. I heard all these things from Mrs. Clark, because she is more in touch with the people here in Dallas. She comes more often to Dallas to see George Bouhe, and we were not very much. We don't see him very much, these Russian people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political conversations with Oswald?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to Oswald's political views?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that opinion?

Mrs. HALL. That he is a Communist and nobody can change him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You formed that opinion because of books and literature that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you about him?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. If the man went to Russia and came back, he should have learned his lesson, I guess. When he came back, he should know that here is a better place, but still he was thinking about Russia. And I was raised in a very anti-Communist family.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't have much sympathy with Oswald's attitude?

Mrs. HALL. No; none at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to Dallas because she heard there were English classes held at the YMCA?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did she tell you that?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess while she was living in my house; or no, it was before that time. Well, George Bouhe told her that they had classes here in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask Marina whether she had gone to any of these classes?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. The first time when I saw her at Christmas, I asked her, and she said, "No; how can I go. He won't babysit at night, and I have to take bus to go downtown." And she couldn't do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and Rubenstein or Ruby?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't. In fact, at that time they never talked about his mother, Marguerite Oswald, and I had the impression that Marina had never met her, because she never mentioned to me. She told me that they live in Oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found this apartment in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never mentioned Lee's mother to you at all?

Mrs. HALL. No. And I had that impression that she is not in Texas, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You later learned from reading the newspaper that Marguerite Oswald did live in Texas?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never heard Lee Oswald mention his mother at any time?

Mrs. HALL. No. He never would talk. He would just sit there and look, or if he had something to read, he would read.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he read quite a bit?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; I think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he did with his time when he wasn't at work?

Mrs. HALL. He was lying on the floor or on the couch and reading.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have any other outside activity that he had other than his work?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at the little pond in Dallas?

Mrs. HALL. That is when he didn't have any job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. He was coming to my house while John and I were divorced. That was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. What?

Mrs. HALL. I said, that was all he was coming, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Kleinlerer tell you that during the time that you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in New York, that he came to the house to see how Marina was and how she was getting along?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. He didn't tell me, but Mrs. Clark told me, because when I came back from New York, John was in Fort Worth already, and we got married after 2 days and I didn't see him any more. I didn't see this Kleinlerer any more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since then?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no discussions yourself with Kleinlerer about what Marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone?

Mrs. HALL. No. Mrs. Clark told me that sometime he would take Marina to grocery store, and sometimes she would take her.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries for Marina while you were in the hospital and you were in New York? Did you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery store, or something like that? What was it?

Mrs. HALL. I didn't give her money that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did she get groceries during the time that you were gone to New York and during the time that you were in the hospital, do you know?

Mrs. HALL. I don't know. Maybe Mrs. Clark or Mr. Kleinlerer paid for her.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not pay for any of her groceries?

Mrs. HALL. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. But during the time that you and Marina both were living at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did both you and Marina live in the house together?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I guess 2 weeks.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you were actually together in the house?

Mrs. HALL. Yes. But I was working all the time. And in fact--that time when she was in my house, sometimes I stayed for overtime. I worked overtime at nights.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you doing work as a dental technician at that time?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you knew the Oswalds and these various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the reasons as to why Lee Oswald went to Russia in the first place?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had in Russia?

Mrs. HALL. He was working in some kind of factory, I think. I don't remember, really. I never did talk about this with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember that he told you or anybody when you were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you?

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think 80 rubles, Russian rubles, I think. Well, I don't know. I think she had 80 rubles. He had a little bit more.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was while Marina worked, too?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say that he had any other source of income when he was in Russia from any source other than his job?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he received help from the Red Cross while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. HALL. No; I never heard of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on when he was in Russia?

Mrs. HALL. I don't know. He never did mention it to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of having heard him speak of such a thing?

Mrs. HALL. No. I never spoke with him very much, because I think we were allergic to each other. He didn't like me and I didn't like him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their possessions? You said that you moved them?

Mrs. HALL. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never knew them to own a firearm of any type, is that right?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her youth in Russia, where she lived and what kind of things she did?

Mrs. HALL. Not very much, really.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that she had been born in Leningrad?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; she told me she was living in Leningrad and then moved to Minsk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she moved?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear from anybody else why she moved?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with the Oswalds the reason why they returned to the United States?

Mrs. HALL. Well, because I think he changed his mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any specific reasons that made him change his mind?

Mrs. HALL. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you that the Oswalds could leave Russia and come back to the United States together like they did?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; it was kind of strange.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss that with the Oswalds?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?

Mrs. HALL. Well, once when they came to Fort Worth, it was all over the papers, you know, and like we Russians, we just want to know. I mean, we read the paper, and Oswald tried to call a few people, and I called Mrs. Clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know.

Is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? So finally John or George Bouhe got in touch with them, and I told Mrs. Clark and all the Russians told probably, it is okay.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you ever have any discussion with these Russian people as to the apparent ease with which Oswald was able to leave the Soviet Union and come back?

Mrs. HALL. It wasn't very easy. I read in the paper that it took him over a year. Well, he was a year, 1 year in Russia, he started asking to come back and it took him almost 2 years, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you read in the paper after the assassination, isn't that right?

Mrs. HALL. No; I think it was in the paper at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When they came back from Russia?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall any conversations with any of your Russian friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of Oswald's return to the United States and the fact that Marina was permitted to leave Russia and come with him? I don't want you to remember anything that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, I would like to have it.

Mrs. HALL. Well, I think I talked with Mrs. Clark about that, and we thought it strange how come they let Marina come, so that was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with any of these people before the assassination as to whether or not Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mrs. HALL. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a--I don't know how to express myself--person, that I never thought he could do something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Like shoot the President, you mean?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, did it?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. HALL. Very much so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with your friends about it then?

Mrs. HALL. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting, after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you hear? Lee Oswald--Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?"

I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee Oswald's name."

And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this?

Mrs. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to return from Russia?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk about President Kennedy in any way?

Mrs. HILL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Governor Connally?

Mrs. HALL. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever mention Richard Nixon?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have had with Mr. Nixon?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any discussion about him?

Mrs. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs. Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you should add at this point?

Mrs. HALL. I wish I knew more.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think we pretty well covered everything?

Mrs. HALL. Yes; that is all, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very much, Mrs. Hall.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN RAYMOND HALL

The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?

Mr. HALL. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.

Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would contact you this week to take your testimony.

Have you received copies of those documents?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union.

Mr. HALL. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any difference?

Mr. LIEBELER. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name?

Mr. HALL. John Raymond Hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. HALL. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your employment?

Mr. HALL. Self-employed. Dental laboratory.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of your company?

Mr. HALL. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a native born American?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. HALL. Birmingham, Ala.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. HALL. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. HALL. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then did you move to Fort Worth?

Mr. HALL. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948. And then in 1956--in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. HALL. 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1928?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your wife's name?

Mr. HALL. Elena Hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you married to Mrs. Hall?

Mr. HALL. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently divorced?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you were subsequently remarried?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you remarried?

Mr. HALL. In November of 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Oswald?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?

Mr. HALL. The first time was during the latter part of these marital difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.

I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about--when I made one of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she, through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark, although Gali wasn't involved in this----

Mr. LIEBELER. Your wife was born in Russia?

Mr. HALL. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does your wife speak Russian?

Mr. HALL. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian.

All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips. As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas--De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor?

Mr. HALL. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time?

Mr. HALL. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I discussed this.

That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was on Saturday--if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we would like to give this guy a job.

It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time being.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job through the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. HALL. George Bouhe, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you then meet Oswald?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you?

Mr. HALL. Yes; we talked at length.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you talked about?

Mr. HALL. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression.

So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about Russia.

We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing really important was said, that I can think of.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia?

Mr. HALL. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and this Taylor fellow.

Do you mind if I smoke?

Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly not.

Go right ahead.

Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any detail?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when that was?

Mr. HALL. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning.

I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and spent most of the day there.

And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge.

The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with Marina, Thursday or Friday.

Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital.

Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and ate with them.

And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was really led by Max.

He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth.

This was about all that was said there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. HALL. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up?

Mr. HALL. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after--this was the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came back and we remarried November 17, I believe--we didn't see Oswald again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on Sunday afternoon.

Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have been during the week--anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Oswald lived then?

Mr. HALL. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff, Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to why he went to Russia?

Mr. HALL. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real strongly religious--I mean not to any extreme, but I have my firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our Christianity--I am a Baptist--I mentioned to Oswald--this is what touched the whole thing off--they didn't have a Christmas tree. We wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents, probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized, and so forth.

When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was actually the first time I think that--this is the third time that I saw him--I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything specific--when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally.

I might not have seemed that way--I didn't get mad or anything, but I didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us.

And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name it was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a book there?

Mr. HALL. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he had?

Mr. HALL. No; I really don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. HALL. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right, but I am not going to go."

About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had accomplished the purpose, so we left.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons why he went to Russia?

Mr. HALL. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight. I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in his job and didn't like the whole setup."

And I wondered why. And he said, "He didn't have security."

And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of life.

And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as he was just unhappy with all of our systems.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return to Russia?

Mr. HALL. Yes; and even at this time--in fact, I don't remember, I don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go back.

And I know this to be real definite that--I don't know how you want that--because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia.

So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me, or told me directly--I think it was more directly, because I know at that time he wanted to go back to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so many words?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his way to Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at Easter of 1963?

Mr. HALL. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion, but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit harder at that time than I had before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during the time that he had previously been there?

Mr. HALL. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about the terrible expense of shoes and clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory?

Mr. HALL. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't remember what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might have gone on in Russia?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald owned a rifle?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or the use of firearms?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't speak Russian, do you, Mr. Hall?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn English?

Mr. HALL. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for her to learn English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood English?

Mr. HALL. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she could understand anything further than hello.

Mr. LIEBELER. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to use English throughout that entire time, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason that you can remember?

Mr. HALL. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together with Oswald, and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt--and we are just middle-income people--but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in the bedroom and one in the living room.

This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like electric can openers and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He expressed that, a general resentment of the social system?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him say anything about President Kennedy?

Mr. HALL. Never.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Governor Connally?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the United States and leave Russia?

Mr. HALL. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to go back to Russia.

And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I wondered why.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he never did tell you, and you never asked him about it?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times that you saw him?

Mr. HALL. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use.

And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they?

Mr. HALL. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I think there were several people. My wife would know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Gave clothes to Marina?

Mr. HALL. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to take her an Easter bunny.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't as of then like Oswald particularly?

Mr. HALL. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was mentally unstable in any way?

Mr. HALL. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no thoughts at the time before the assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in any respect, did you?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you really consider or question, or you just never thought of it?

Mr. HALL. Just never thought of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other thing that you might know about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point? I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting like Christmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald, and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties with their marriage?

Mr. HALL. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that he beat her up one time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up?

Mr. HALL. I didn't; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs. Hall's house in Fort Worth?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. To give him a chance to get settled; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you help the Oswalds move?

Mr. HALL. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall when you went to New York?

Mr. HALL. Well, we got back--we were married on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of November?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that, which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back and--a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business, and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and we were married on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first move into the house with your wife?

Mr. HALL. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually came back from New York--you see I came back a week earlier than she did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know what day, I don't think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you weren't there when she moved out?

Mr. HALL. No; we were in New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. She was gone when you got back?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas during the time his wife was living in your house?

Mr. HALL. We understood--this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I guess--that he was living at the YMCA.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. The next time we heard of him, he was living on Elsbeth.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in Dallas before taking that apartment?

Mr. HALL. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address on Neely Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. N-e-e-l-y?

Mr. HALL. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever lend any money to Oswald?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them or gave any money to Marina?

Mr. HALL. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy groceries for the Oswalds at other times?

Mr. HALL. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery Ward.

Mr. LIEBELER. Prior to the time that Oswald moved to Dallas?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I believe so. I am not sure of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to the Oswalds during that period of time, do you?

Mr. HALL. No; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in dollars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his military service?

Mr. HALL. I can't remember a thing being said, about his military service.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you might know about Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think the Commission should know?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate a desire to go to Cuba or to Mexico?

Mr. HALL. Not to me; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to anybody else?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. HALL. Not at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't surprised?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?

Mr. HALL. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in our laboratory--at that time we were watching television and were on the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were sure it was Oswald, then all of us--I am talking about my wife and Mrs. Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew that knew him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and if he did it, what his motive was?

Mr. HALL. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so set--in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise, was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a chance to change his thinking.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that these political attitudes of his were somehow related to his involvement in the assassination?

Mr. HALL. Say that again?

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate the President? Or were related to it?

Mr. HALL. My--this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely feel that he thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our economic way of life by doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking?

Mr. HALL. Exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally?

Mr. HALL. No; I didn't think of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this before the assassination?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your mind prior to the assassination, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. I felt just the opposite on the recognition part.

Mr. LIEBELER. He really didn't care what people thought about him?

Mr. HALL. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems, no money problems, no rent problems--you see what I mean, just a middle-of-the-roader.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be excellent at things?

Mr. HALL. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is going to change him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent of the Soviet Union.

Mr. HALL. This came up after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was no discussion about that prior to the assassination, that you can remember?

Mr. HALL. As an agent for Russia before, no, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Mr. HALL. We didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider the question after the assassination and you did discuss it?

Mr. HALL. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In that--and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words, he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He couldn't take the orders.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of authority, generally speaking?

Mr. HALL. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he must have had a lot of authority above him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was resentful of authority?

Mr. HALL. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can remember, why he was resentful of it?

Mr. HALL. Insecurity, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as jobs were concerned?

Mr. HALL. Basically, that's right; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. FRANK H. RAY (VALENTINA)

The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness. If you will rise and raise your right hand, please----

Mrs. RAY. Surely. (Complying.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. RAY. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter last week?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. With which he included copies of the Executive order----

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony.

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received the letter and copies of the documents?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.

Mrs. RAY. Mrs. Frank H. Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mrs. RAY. I live 4524 Alta Vista, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mrs. Ray?

Mrs. RAY. In Stalino, Ukraine.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is in the Ukraine; it is the Soviet Union?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mrs. RAY. June 9, 1927.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did it come about that you came to the United States?

Mrs. RAY. When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942 until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live.

Mr. LIEBELER. What part of Germany?

Mrs. RAY. Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that part of Germany and I went to work for Americans and then I married an American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name?

Mrs. RAY. Henry W. Bahlkow.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a member of the U.S. Army?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, 36th Division and he was--I don't know what outfit at the time but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present address if that help.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is he living in St. Louis?

Mrs. RAY. No, Hicksville, Long Island?

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his address?

Mrs. RAY. I forget number--Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street--it would be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an electrical engineer over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were taken from Russia at the age of 14?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work for the Germans after that time?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I imagine that kind of interfered with your formal education?

Mrs. RAY. Let's say it stopped it completely.

Mr. LIEBELER. What formal educational background do you have?

Mrs. RAY. I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think--I don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare schools here to school over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any formal education other than that?

Mrs. RAY. When I came over here I went to International Institute in St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen papers and I became citizen 1949.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mrs. RAY. I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of 1954; I remarried.

Mr. LIEBELER. What does your present husband do?

Mrs. RAY. He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name of Pollock and Ray.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is located in Dallas?

Mrs. RAY. 3508 Dickason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time you met Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been staying at Mrs. Ford's house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina had?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly he can come out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest.

He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there then?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't seem to be ungrateful but looked like "We don't need it." He didn't say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee did not thank you for the clothes?

Mrs. RAY. Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house and talked with his wife----

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said Lee had told Marina he rented an apartment?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment prior to that time?

Mrs. RAY. I got impression that they did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember how you got that impression?

Mrs. RAY. Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?" She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when I talked to her on everything she described apartment--"I have living room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"--so I am almost certain that is the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea where she has been.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the Oswalds marital difficulties?

Mrs. RAY. I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that he struck her or beat her up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what reason for beating her up?

Mrs. RAY. No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you leave--I am not that nosey.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you met Marina when you went to Mrs. Ford's to pick her up?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard about her prior to that time?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why Marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were?

Mrs. RAY. None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's place on Elsbeth.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the day that he came out to your house to talk to Marina----

Mrs. RAY. Yes; at my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall and tell us to the best of your recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation was?

Mrs. RAY. My talk with him mostly just on--what did I talk to him about? I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian or in English?

Mrs. RAY. In Russian at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Marina could understand English?

Mrs. RAY. At the time she could not understand but maybe few words like simple words like if I say bread or--I would say she did not understand maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use every day in the kitchen, not any English at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did not try to teach Marina English?

Mrs. RAY. No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say in response to that?

Mrs. RAY. I said after she learns English they could speak Russian all time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald make any response to that?

Mrs. RAY. None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was absolutely--you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get answer. He did not say one word.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald drank at all?

Mrs. RAY. When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink. I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I don't drink," so I don't know whether it was just that day or period but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink because he would have said I don't care for any today or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything more about the conversation that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over?

Mrs. RAY. No; I don't think so; all was small talk. We talked about my cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough to discuss anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you anything about her background in Russia, where she was born, where she was raised?

Mrs. RAY. Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or aunt, I am not sure. I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and the first time--like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to so and so and by that time, it got to me--first I heard about was she was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. She told you that?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; she did; she has sister in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did Marina tell you that?

Mrs. RAY. This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived with her aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say you are a friend of Mrs. Ford's?

Mrs. RAY. I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She is the first Russian I met here in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New Year's, 1962?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing Oswald there?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said "Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people. He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so, it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and I think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; somebody was talking care.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how Oswald came to the party?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; later on "Katya"----

Mr. LIEBELER. That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]?

Mrs. RAY. Katya told me--that is Mrs. Ford--George De Mohren--it's something; I don't know him very well at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; they brought them to the party.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the Oswalds left the part?

Mrs. RAY. None.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or during the period following the Ford party in which the question of whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed?

Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party for--normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work and she did not say. I really have no information after that party. I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me and I have never discussed it with anyone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back to Russia?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to Russia?

Mrs. RAY. Not until after this all came out in the papers after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any political discussions with Oswald?

Mrs. RAY. Not--I do not know enough because--I do not know anything about politics. Let us say I could not discuss it intelligently, therefore, I usually stay away from that subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Marina Oswald prior to the assassination based on your exposure to her?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her because I felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent person?

Mrs. RAY. At first I did not because I knew her so short--I mean it was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she was immature?

Mrs. RAY. Well, immature--I did at first, I thought she was little immature.

Mr. LIEBELER. A little immature?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to another country. In your own country might not be considered immature but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things, people might consider you immature where you really not.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house when she had to go down for questioning.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when this was?

Mrs. RAY. In February, I am not sure about dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before she went to Washington?

Mrs. RAY. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. RAY. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more time and that was last time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did speak to her about it?

Mrs. RAY. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?" And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss him?" She said "No, she doesn't even--June doesn't even remember him." And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to her about it but she did not and I really did not ask.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it?

Mrs. RAY. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret Service and FBI?

Mrs. RAY. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same, everyone came to my house, they were very nice people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. RAY. In the papers?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. Richard Nixon?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Marina at all?

Mrs. RAY. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on Richard Nixon. I did not know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it.

Mrs. RAY. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I missed that one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. RAY. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone else?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit suicide or attempt to?

Mrs. RAY. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian?

Mrs. RAY. No; I spoke to him in English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak Russian?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak Russian?

Mrs. RAY. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending, every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by foreigner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he spoke Russian well?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I think--I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in Russia to learn perfect it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that?

Mrs. RAY. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know. I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would speak.

Mr. LIEBELER. After 3 years or so?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think he had any special training in the Russian language?

Mrs. RAY. No; I did not think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with him?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in Leningrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; because--I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs. Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad, you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad; when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from Leningrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from Leningrad to Minsk, if she did?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met Oswald in Russia and why she married him?

Mrs. RAY. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what was said?

Mrs. RAY. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just--what did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that funny? This is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but I know they said they went together little while and she fell in love with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what your first name is?

Mrs. RAY. My first name is Valentina.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of Russia, did you?

Mrs. RAY. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had a lot to do with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say you "imagine"?

Mrs. RAY. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany. I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own experience.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of your acquaintance?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he was even--I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even though you did not do anything or speak two words to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it was him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised?

Mrs. RAY. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any kind of opinion what kind of person he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous or prone to violence?

Mrs. RAY. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he struck Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you or your husband ever give any money to the Oswalds?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said you gave some baby clothes?

Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my 2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear corduroy pants and stuff like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any money or groceries or clothes or anything like that?

Mrs. RAY. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend any money?

Mrs. RAY. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store. She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that night Lee came over to your house?

Mrs. RAY. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly it was he begged her to come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never told you what they talked about?

Mrs. RAY. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to come back; he was very--and she left. She mostly mention he cried and begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back."

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one who killed the President?

Mrs. RAY. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was connected with anyone, but done it on his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss why he might have done it?

Mrs. RAY. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really knows what prompted him to do such a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RAY. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go to nightclub. He despised them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her?

Mrs. RAY. We talked little bit about that since--I mean this last few weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after this all happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations?

Mrs. RAY. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed it with Marina?

Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything like that may have been the case?

Mrs. RAY. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are older people.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway?

Mrs. RAY. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not suspect it yourself?

Mrs. RAY. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to buy a rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission might want to know about or should know about.

Mrs. RAY. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr. George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took us out, her and me, to lunch.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was after the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald came and got her before we did anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at the time?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald?

Mrs. RAY. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it amounted to $7, groceries, baby food.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?

Mrs. RAY. About 2 weeks ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes. I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired of dragging her by the ear. She did not want to go so he gave up on her but he has always been very, very helpful with people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was resentful--thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying to interfere with his marriage?

Mrs. RAY. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and food for her baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful?

Mrs. RAY. I think he resented taking things from people because when she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything. He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually talking to him alone.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you would like to tell us, I have no further questions.

Mrs. RAY. I do not know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else?

Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot think of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming down.

Mrs. RAY. You are certainly welcome.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ

The testimony of Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 11:35 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, will you stand and be sworn, please?

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in this deposition which we are about to take?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I do.

I want to add only that I will--some of my statements or even the majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. And, as a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done--which we call hearsay.

Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. And something else--some of the statements, they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be entirely correct. The sense will be correct, but not the exact words. You realize that?

Mr. JENNER. I do--but you're going to give us the best recollection you have?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. We don't expect any more.

Mrs. VOSHININ. All right.

Mr. JENNER. We don't want any speculation on your part----

Mrs. VOSHININ. I see. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Other than when we might ask you as to what your impression or impressions are and what they might not be.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; I understand.

Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Igor Voshinin?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your maiden name?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Semenov, S-e-m-e-n-o-v [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. And you are a resident of Dallas?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Dallas, Tex.--right. 3504 Mockingbird.

Mr. JENNER. 3504 Mockingbird. And you are the wife of Igor Voshinin?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, did you receive from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, a letter asking if you would appear----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in which was enclosed the Senate Joint Resolution which authorized the creation of the Presidential Assassination Commission----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. That Resolution being No. 137; and also the President's, the Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson's Executive Order creating the Commission and fixing its rules and affording it its powers?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Together, also, with a third document which is the rules of procedure of the Commission?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents that this is a Presidential Commission created in the manner I've indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking from you and others any information you have with regard to Marina and Lee Oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in contact with them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. I do.

Mr. JENNER. And we understand that you have some information in those areas and I would like to inquire of you about them.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis, to whom I introduced you, is a representative of the attorney general of the State of Texas. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a naturalized citizen or a native--that is, born here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Naturalized; 1955.

Mr. JENNER. 1955; March 7?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And you were naturalized in New York City, I believe?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In New Jersey.

Mr. JENNER. In New Jersey. Where were you born?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia in Labinsk. Well, I will spell you both names, because when I was born it was called Labinskaja--[spelling] L-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has been called Labinsk--just abbreviate where the "k" is.

Mr. JENNER. And orient me--where is that in Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's in Kuban Region. This is the Fore-Caucasus. This is Southern Russia.

Mr. JENNER. It's in the Caucasus?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; they are called Fore-Caucasus--[spelling] F-o-r-e--Caucasus.

Mr. JENNER. You are a person of higher education, are you not?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I hold a degree in geology. That's all.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in America, call the equivalent of high school?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a university?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I attended first University in Yugoslavia for 4 years. It was philosophy and I did not graduate due to war. Then, I got my bachelor's degree in geology in Brooklyn College in 1953.

Mr. JENNER. That's Brooklyn, N.Y.?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Brooklyn, N.Y. And master's degree at Rutgers in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. Rutgers University?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Rutgers University--right; in geology.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Yugoslavia was the university that you attended?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Belgrade.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in short compass, as I understand from your husband who just deposed, you left Russia or were taken by your parents from Russia when you were 1 year old?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Something like that; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in what country were you when you first became conscious of your whereabouts?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I was in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. In what town?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Panchevo, next to Belgrade--[spelling] P-a-n-c-h-e-v-o. And before that my parents lived for a few years--I think for a couple of years in Bulgaria--in Varna Pleven--[spelling] V-a-r-n-a P-l-e-v-e-n--and in Sofia. But I'm not aware of dates.

Mr. JENNER. That's just by reputation?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If you'll pardon my inquiry, what is your age?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Forty-five; March 21, 1918.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Where did you meet Mr. Voshinin?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In Belgrade.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. VOSHININ. First, I met him when I was about 12 years old and then I didn't see him for a while; and then, I believe it was in 1939, that I met him again.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In Panchevo. He was working there as a civil engineer--as a city engineer.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I understand he's some 12 years older than you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. Eleven and a half--something like that.

Mr. JENNER. And he was a civil engineer in----

Mrs. VOSHININ. In the city of Panchevo.

Mr. JENNER. In 1942?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. 1939?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, 1939; yes. And through 1942, I would say. Because he was in the Army during the war, you know, in the beginning----

Mr. JENNER. He was?

Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drafted to the Army.

Mr. JENNER. What Army?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yugoslavian Army.

Mr. JENNER. And you were conscious of that fact, were you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't--what do you mean, "conscious"?

Mr. JENNER. Well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and was in the Yugoslavian Army?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; that was after we were married. We married in 1940--January 21.

Mr. JENNER. January 21, 1940?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And after your marriage----

Mrs. VOSHININ. After our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the exercises--you know, the Army training.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe it was in 1941. You know, the war already started--remember?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1939.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. The war started in September of 1939.

Mrs. VOSHININ. 1939; yes; something like that. And then just after the Germans attacked Yugoslavia, my husband was called--got a telegram to appear. And then he returned back in 19--let's see, when was that? 1942--no; in 1941, I believe. Yes; 1941. I think that the Germans attacked us in April 1941--Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Invaded Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Invaded Yugoslavia; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there then?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And you moved from Yugoslavia to where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany. First, they took my husband and they sent an invitation to me, too.

Mr. JENNER. To come to Germany?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To come to Germany. No; don't say "invitation", I'm sorry. This is just a joke. It was--well, they would just ask you to appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to fill in. After that you were deported--you are supposed to go here and there.

Mr. JENNER. You were directed to go?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany--drafted with other young people. At that time they were doing that.

Mr. JENNER. You were drafted into the work labor force?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Into the work labor force; right.

Mr. JENNER. And you went, then, to Germany?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Austria?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria--Linz Am Donau--[spelling] L-i-n-z A-m D-o-n-a-u. This means Linz on the Danube--because there was another Linz there in Austria.

Mr. JENNER. And you were there in Austria until when?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Until, I believe, March 1945--until the Russian troops started approaching Linz Am Donau--because already they were on the outskirts.

Mr. JENNER. Already they were on the outskirts?

Mrs. VOSHININ. They were already approaching. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You could hear the guns?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I didn't hear them very well--but Igor was at that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite distinctly--the city of Linz. And then we just didn't lose any time leaving Linz. And we took a westerly direction--we didn't care which.

Mr. JENNER. You wanted any direction away from the----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly opposite direction away from Russians. Let's put it this way. And that was our direction throughout our life, I'm afraid.

Mr. JENNER. Your direction all your life has been away from the Russians?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; away from the Russians.

Mr. JENNER. And you went to where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we came as far as Kempten, Bavaria. And, of course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as you can go without being extensively controlled by Germans. Because, you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. We did not have any permit to leave town--and this we might have been shot for it. Because, before we left town--several days before--Germans made an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. But, if we stayed, we would be put to death by Russians--so, what could we lose, you know?

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Bavaria--and were you liberated by anybody?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right--by lots of people. First, I believe it was French Moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through Kempten; and then came American troops.

Mr. JENNER. And you were completely liberated by them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. It was good!

Mr. JENNER. You were pleased to see the Americans?

Mrs. VOSHININ. You bet! I was pleased to see the Moroccans also, you know--any friend.

Mr. JENNER. And did you come to America then?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And settled temporarily, at least initially, in New Jersey?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In New York--well, let's see. No. First of all we settled in New York. We were taken to the Diplomat Hotel and put down there. Then we lived at the Diplomat Hotel for--I'm not sure--Gee, I don't remember. Anyway, we worked in New York always, both of us, my husband and I, and we lived in Bayonne, N.J., part of the time in New York, and then we lived in Highland Park, N.J.--which was across the bridge from New Brunswick. New Brunswick is were Rutgers University is. I was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually come to Dallas?

Mrs. VOSHININ. It was in September--beginning of September 1955. I believe it was around the 1st or 6th of September.

Mr. JENNER. Did you come to Dallas directly, or did you stop in another Texas city first?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we went on vacation before we directly settled in Dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to stop. So, we went to Houston but the climate was not quite pleasant there--and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in New York and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. So, we decided against that. And then we came to Dallas and liked it very much.

Mr. JENNER. Do you like the climate here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Very much. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband was very helpful in telling us about the Russian community that you found here, or the community in which you moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the Greek Orthodox Church. He said that when you and he came to Dallas, either you didn't know anybody at all, or you knew some one person--I forget.

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know anybody at all personally. But, you see, when we were in Houston, we met there--of course, we went to the church first. That's usually your first move. And we met the priest there and----

Mr. JENNER. His name?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Father Alexander Chernay.

Mr. JENNER. Spell it.

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-h-e-r-n-a-y--or "I". I don't know how he spelled it.

And then he introduced us to Mrs. Jitkoff's mother.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, too.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me think of her name. What was her name? She died. She was the mother of Mrs. Andre Jitkoff--[spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. 3714 Locke Lane--if you need the address.

And, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and all the pros and cons of Texas life. And, finally--she spoke very convincingly--she liked Texas very much--and we decided to stay here. And she directed us to Mr. George Bouhe in Dallas. And then we came and met George.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't know Bouhe prior to this time?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who is George Bouhe?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, he's an accountant, I believe, and I don't know exactly for whom he worked at that time--but I know that he worked for a long time for DeGolyer and MacNaughton. And he was sort of a manager of the Russian parish there--Father Alexander's parish.

Mr. JENNER. What parish is that?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That was the St. Nicholas parish.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about this community of people.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, there were very few people and who we met there were Clarks--one of the first--Gali and Max Clark--that's [spelling] G-a-l-i.

Mr. JENNER. In what town do they live?

Mrs. VOSHININ. They live at 3712 Selkirk--[spelling] S-e-l-k-i-r-k--in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark is an attorney, is he not?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Clark is----

Mrs. VOSHININ. She has also an education in the law.

Mr. JENNER. An education in law?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Europe.

Mr. JENNER. Is she a naturalized citizen?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so, I don't know. She is married to Max--uh--she probably--that's the way she got to this country. She's not a born American.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is what is her nativity? Do you know?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she said that her mother is of British descent--Hughes. And her father was Russian--Shcherbatov. It's a very well-known historical name.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] S-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. Then we met a family by name Popoff--[spelling] P-o-p-o-f-f--Nicholas Popoff.

Mr. JENNER. Does he live here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. He lives here; yes. He's a mechanical engineer. I'm not sure where he works.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a native of Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I think so.

And I believe that's--yes, there were some people of Ukrainian background. I don't remember their names, though.

But, anyway, it was a very small parish. And there were also two priests--young priests--one monk, Father Hilary Madison, and another one, Father Dimitri Royster.

Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] R-o-y-s-t-e-r?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. And that is where our troubles with George Bouhe started.

I mean, George Bouhe wanted to make it a Russian-speaking parish. And Father Royster and Father Hilary were believing that it would be much better if it were an English-speaking parish because it would be a church of the future.

And, of course, I know, according to my brother's children, that they always tend to go to English-speaking services, because they say that they understand much better English. They do not understand Church Slavonic at all. You know, that's an obsolete language, slightly different from Russian and different from modern Russian language.

So, of course, we agreed with those two young priests more than with George.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. VOSHININ. And here the trouble started.

And we separated finally and Father Dimitri decided to start a new church--practically from scratch. There were three Voshinins in his church, I believe four Chichillas--[spelling] C-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s--and I think that was about the whole parish.

And, after that, we did not have much contact with George. In fact, we resented each other extensively. But, with the years, the resentment sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have social intercourse with George?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Bouhe?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I meet him at a party some place--at other people's parties once in a while, but----

Mr. JENNER. Are you employed?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Self-employed.

Mr. JENNER. Self-employed?

And, when you first came here, were you employed by anybody?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I was employed by George De Mohrenschildt for half a day and for half a day I worked for Henry Rogatz--both geologists. I stayed with George, I believe, just 2 or 3 weeks maximum amount, as far as I can remember--no longer than a month.

Mr. JENNER. And this was in 19----

Mrs. VOSHININ. 1955. I believe in November. Either end of October or November in 1955.

And then I started working for Henry Rogatz, for whom I worked until June 1962.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with, George De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. VOSHININ. George Bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. And he asked me to call George on the telephone. And I came there and George right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help him with his projects--drilling projects, whatever he had there.

Mr. JENNER. Drilling projects?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; there was one drilling project going on and he wanted me to participate in the geology.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known this man theretofore?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Then, after about 3 weeks of working half days for Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you began full time for Mr. Rogatz?

Mrs. VOSHININ. For Mr. Rogatz--right.

Mr. JENNER. Also, in your profession of geology?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. What did you learn of De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's present wife, and De Mohrenschildt's prior history?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know very much about De Mohrenschildt's prior history--only what he, himself, told me. I mean, I can just repeat his own words.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You start and tell us what he told you----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then go from that to what you know of your own knowledge.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Sir, I'm afraid I don't know anything of my own knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us all he told you.

Mrs. VOSHININ. He told me that he had some former wives--that he had a wife, Dorothy, and a daughter, Alex, from this wife Dorothy.

Mr. JENNER. And that daughter's name was Alex?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Alex. Right.

And then that he had a second wife--I believe he said her name was Washington, or something like that. And I also believe that he said she was a songstress or something like that. I'm not too sure, somehow. He never talked about that.

Mr. JENNER. An entertainer of some kind?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Entertainer of some kind--right.

And he never talked about her and I understand it was a very short marriage.

And then it was Dee Dee Sharples whom, just when I started working with George, the trouble had started between Dee Dee and George. So, I never met her. I talked to her over the phone a couple of times but I never met her myself.

And then he separated from Dee Dee and he found--he met Jeanne [pronounced Zhon]. I believe that he mentioned to me that he met Jeanne before that time, though, I'm not certain when and how. No--I am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the Stoneleigh Hotel. She was living in that hotel. And then they married, I believe, in 1959, after those trips to Yugoslavia--two trips. I'm not sure whether he went two or once to Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Were you living here in Dallas when he made his trip or trips to Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, uh-huh. We lived all the time in Dallas--all those years.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his trip to Yugoslavia--and start from the beginning, as you recall it?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Only what he told me about it. I remember very well that he was getting an offer from somebody in Washington, D.C., to go to Yugoslavia. And, somehow, George didn't like very much this idea, because he told me he will go to Yugoslavia if he will have to go--something to that extent. I understood that if he goes very well in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to Yugoslavia.

But, at that time, he was preferring to work in Texas and drill wells rather than his foreign work--which he did later after he returned from Yugoslavia.

You see, there actually are two periods in George's life.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about it.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went to Yugoslavia and after he went to Yugoslavia. Because--of course, I might be quite wrong about it. This is my own impression of the whole thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; well, that's what we want.

Now, you were living here in Dallas when he went to----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went.

Mr. JENNER. At the time he went to Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And you had these conversations with him about going to Yugoslavia before he left?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right.

Mr. JENNER. And you know he went?

Mrs. VOSHININ. And I know he went; right.

Mr. JENNER. You know, by reputation, that he went to Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. What reputation?

Mr. JENNER. Well, by what was said. It was said that he went to Yugoslavia. You do know----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but then he sent us postcards from Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. VOSHININ. So, we knew for sure that he was there. And then he brought back--that I know for sure that he went to Yugoslavia--and he brought the photo pictures unmistakably Yugoslavian that he brought back--photographs, you know, that were Yugoslavian.

Some of them I knew--some of the places.

Mr. JENNER. You knew some of the places in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He was over there about how long?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I thought he was there about a year--something like that.

Mr. JENNER. And this was when?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I think it was in--now, that I cannot place exactly. I think in 1957--in 1956 and 1957; or 1957 and beginning of 1958. I'm not too sure. But anyway, what I remember that in 1959--it was before 1959, because in 1959 we went to Fifth Petroleum Congress in New York City and there we met George and his old friends from Yugoslavia. So, that would have been the year before that that he went. There was a delegation of Yugoslavian geologists who knew him--and he introduced us.

Mr. JENNER. And you gathered, from those introductions and talking, that they were people in the Yugoslavian delegation to the Fifth Petroleum Congress who knew George?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Knew George very well; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did they speak of his having been there, or what was said that led you to affirm that he had been in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together with those people. We just--you know, it's not very easy sometimes to talk to the people from behind the Iron Curtain. And I had definite feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us--for some reason.

Mr. JENNER. Because of your long stay in Yugoslavia, both you and your husband could have spoken with them? You are familiar with----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, they talked our own language. Certainly.

And we just--I just met the whole group once, and then one fellow was there who was brought up also in Banat region--[spelling] B-a-n-a-t--which is near the town of Panchevo, where I grew up. And he was very eager to talk. And I had the impression that he was definitely afraid.

Mr. JENNER. Afraid to talk to you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. You know what he did? For some reason he would say--"Would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and let's talk?" And we would say a few words and they would come and he would immediately cease talking, you know.

And then again, he would say it--and it was always in a crowd that he would like so to talk. I don't know. That was just funny behavior--really.

Mr. JENNER. And this Fifth Petroleum Conference was when?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1959--end of May and beginning of June, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Were you going to tell us about the so-called second period of George De Mohrenschildt's career?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I would call it the second period because, first of all, I must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the second period, we were not on speaking terms with George and Jeanne for over a year. So, I cannot tell anything about that period.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That was--well, from some cracks they made. I mean--no--well, okay. It was a silly joke, I believe.

But Jeanne wanted to send a greetings telegram to Mr. Khrushchev, you know.

Now, I don't know whether I made it clear to the gentlemen from the FBI. So, I would rather say this now.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. VOSHININ. But she never sent this telegram. George told me she never did send it. But, anyway, we were awfully angry at that--really angry. And it was just--all that constantly, you know, and their talking in left direction----

Mr. JENNER. Their talking what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In left direction, I mean. They were liberals, you know, and once in a while they were just unpleasant.

Mr. JENNER. Was George De Mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife the liberal?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Wife was a liberal, definite; but George would talk--could talk either way. George--well, if he would, for example, think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something pro-Fascistic, he would do that.

Mr. JENNER. Saying something what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Pro-Fascistic, you know--pro-Nazi.

Mr. JENNER. Pro-Nazi?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he would do that by all means. If he knew that you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise Communists, you know. Communists--not communism. In fact, I never heard George--not necessarily communism itself. In fact, I never heard George praising the Communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several ways.

Mr. JENNER. He was a provocative personality, was he?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Definitely.

Mr. JENNER. He sought to provoke argument?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. He would take either side?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Either side.

Mr. JENNER. Always opposite to the other person?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. VOSHININ. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite sympathy for the--I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow--not in particular.

Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask a question?

Mr. JENNER. Sure.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you all ever meet people named the Kelvin Fords?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Kelvin or Declan Ford? I met Declan Ford.

Mr. DAVIS. I mean Declan. Excuse me.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Declan. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Do you know them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know them very well. I knew her very well when she was married to her first husband--but not too close with her after she married Declan. I just met them several times.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you attend the Christmas party that they had?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I did not--oh, wait a minute. That was not Christmas party. That was New Year's party.

Mr. DAVIS. New Year's party?

Mrs. VOSHININ. This year's New Year's party; yes. We attended that. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you meet Lee Oswald there?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir. That was after the assassination of the President that we attended the New Year's party.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, the one the year before?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, no. We went elsewhere.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about George De Mohrenschildt's personality--other than in this area of argumentation and provocation.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I thought that he was a neurotic person. He had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage absolutely for no reason at all practically. And I knew that he complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very well. And once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or something. He had some difficulty on the nervous background.

Mr. JENNER. Was he unconventional?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--what does that mean exactly?

Mr. JENNER. He didn't dress normally----

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's true; yes.

Mr. JENNER. He would come to church in shorts?----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. He would walk into your home without invitation?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. He was that way.

Mr. DAVIS. Sort of a beatnik?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, no; not beatnik--but he was definitely nonconformist. He would just love to do exactly what people would, you know, object to.

Mr. JENNER. He was not sensitive to the feelings of others?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Not at all. I believe that sometimes he definitely enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. He used to--in any way. For example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. If they are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. The conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the Jewish people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know.

He was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children in that respect--honestly. And what the trouble is with George and Jeanne, both of them, I think, their main trouble is their extreme bitterness--extreme bitterness, I believe which goes back to their former life.

Mr. JENNER. Bitterness?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Toward life, toward people, toward--you know, they thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. For example, Igor and I were bigots because we went to church. You know, that sort of thing. And so and so on.

Mr. JENNER. They were unreligious people?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; they were actually fighting atheists.

Mr. JENNER. They were aggressive atheists?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Aggressive, definitely. And they would just state it in, sometimes, quite rude form. One definitely would object against the form, mainly--because, after all, everybody should have his own belief. There is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in which they did it, you know, the impoliteness.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you ever notice that they tended to want to help people?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To help people?

Mr. DAVIS. Were they the type persons that were always trying to help someone that needed help?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not always; uh-uh. But, I think that by nature, they are very, very good natured--definitely. They're for the underdog, you know--always. And--well, compared to George Bouhe, whose whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it or not, you know--they would be nonhelpful. You know, they would not bother so much about people as George Bouhe did.

Mr. JENNER. They weren't aggressive about it as George Bouhe was?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. But they were very--are very good natured.

Mr. JENNER. And generous people?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Not George--no. Jeanne, yes; but not George.

For example, their relation to Oswald. They definitely pitied him very, very much. They were very sorry for him. And they tried to help him in any way they could.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that you have mentioned the Oswalds, did you ever meet either one of the Oswalds?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; uh-uh.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear about the Oswalds?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In what connection did you first hear or read or learn about their existence? Fix the time, first.

Mrs. VOSHININ. My husband read it in the newspaper.

Mr. JENNER. That would be in June of 1962?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say.

Mr. JENNER. They arrived here in----

Mrs. VOSHININ. They arrived here and there was an article in the newspaper.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. They arrived in New York on the 12th day of June 1962?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know about----

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm just telling you that that's so.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. And then your husband read an item in the local paper--about what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. About them arriving here and from where did they come. They came from Russia. You know that. They arrived here and----

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in this article that arrested your attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance or happenings in Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well whatever was there in the article. I didn't read it myself. But what I heard of them was from my friends--first, from the Clarks. And they told me some circumstances. They told me that he was living in Minsk, I believe. But they didn't tell me anything about his political nature. They just said that she is a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish.

Mr. JENNER. Boorish?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Boorish. Has bad manners and arrogant. I don't know the right English word for that. Arrogant, maybe. And, so, we decided that we don't want to associate with him at that time.

And the second time I heard from them--no, between that time--between Clarks and De Mohrenschildts--I heard from them some other people in the St. Nicholas Church. They mentioned them.

Mr. JENNER. You said, I heard from those people about Oswalds--about two Oswalds. Right?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and they were usually positive about her and somehow uneasy about him. They liked her. And the only thing that I heard--the only people that I heard about the political inclinations of Oswalds were De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. In conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. They related to you their views as to Oswald's political inclinations?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did they say and who said it--which of them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. First of all, we did not discuss it. It was rather remarks on George's side--because we asked George definitely and Jeanne not to bring him to our house and not to invite us when the Oswalds are there because we had certain reasons--not evidence--but reasons to believe that he might be a Soviet agent. Might be, you know. But not sure at all whether he would be or not.

Mr. JENNER. Since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want to have anything to do with them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. We wanted to stay away from them. Yes. And the De Mohrenschildts argued with us about that. George would say always that he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. And, then, later--that was at the beginning--that was at the very beginning--and then later, somehow, I believe George started seeing through Oswald a little bit. That's my own opinion--impression.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you go ahead and talk.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Because he told me on several occasions that, "You know, I believe that he's just an idealistical Marxist." And he said, "You know, he's one of those pure Marxists." You know, meaning a Marxist in theory but not in practice.

And finally I remember a pretty good conversation--George mentioned the possibility of Oswald being actually a Communist. Because, he said, you know Natalie, I believed that he remained what he was."

And I remember definitely that conversation because Jeanne took George right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement. And she said that she does not believe that he is a Communist because he was very disappointed with Mr. Khrushchev and Russia--and then, of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a Communist if he is disappointed with Khrushchev and Russia, you know. I remember that argument--but more than that, I just can't say, because I just don't remember that far away the conversations. But we got, again, you know--the picture was sort of shaping up about Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. You tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up about Oswald. What did you mean by that?

Mrs. VOSHININ. By that, that we wanted to stay away from him, definitely for a period. You know, that he was just--that he just was a dangerous person. For this reason, first of all, Soviets seldom let anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person--especially a person of non-Russian descent. Yet they let him live there. Right?

Mr. JENNER. They let him in in the first place?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In the first place. So, they must have had some plans for him. He stayed there for a length of time. Right? I believe, 2 years.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He went there in September of 1959 and left in--oh--the tail end of May or the first part of June 1962.

Mrs. VOSHININ. 1962? So, it's three years. Right?

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Then, for these 3 years--this is all our own theory, we have no----

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I know.

Mrs. VOSHININ. You understand?

For these 3 years, he could have got his training? Right? Whatever it is.

Thirdly, his exit from Russia was so easy. With wife and children--with child, wife, and with suitcases--no problem there. Which is absolutely unnatural. Usually, American boys have such trouble getting their families out of Russia. You probably remember the cases.

And, thirdly, we believed that--we were expecting, rather, to hear from Oswald publicly some anti-Communist declaration, some, you know, reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know, we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in communism, came here sincerely--like people we know. For example, Eugene Lyons or Captain Khokhlov, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me write it (writes out name). So, his behavior after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was unnatural. He was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back. Right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. According to George, he was a great--he had great intellectual power; he was very clever person--definitely intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was--he couldn't find a job. Now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual person to go get his living lecturing against communism?

Mr. JENNER. Were you harkening back to your own history----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. I might have done it if I hadn't had my own profession.

Mr. JENNER. That you were able to obtain positions?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Everybody would be able to to obtain a position. Khokhlov, he was in Washington, D.C., even, I believe. I don't remember exactly what he was. But, anyway, all those people not only expressed their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with other people----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. But--the other point was that it would really help Oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? He would earn some money. Other people were earning their living by lecturing on anti-Communistic talk. So, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to the factory--or whatever he did, I don't know exactly, whatever work he worked--instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. Right?

Mr. JENNER. Right.

Mrs. VOSHININ. From what we heard of him he never expressed himself for being anti-Communist. We remember that. We never heard a word of this.

Mr. JENNER. Did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to lecture?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Not never. Because George was so emphatic about his mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really never occurred to me. I thought that he was an intellectual, very well read. Because George said that many times. He said, "He's a very interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person."

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever argue this with De Mohrenschildt--say, "Well, why doesn't he lecture? I don't understand this?"

Mrs. VOSHININ. I remember I did ask that--and I don't remember the exact answer. Whatever it was, I don't remember. But, as far as I remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to Russia, or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd leave that up to him.

Mr. DAVIS. Did George De Mohrenschildt ever mention that Oswald spoke fluent Russian?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he did. Uh-huh. He said that Oswald spoke very good Russian.

Mr. DAVIS. Did he ever discuss where he learned to speak Russian so fluently?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; in fact, he did not discuss or quote--I don't remember him discussing extensively Oswald's background or quoting what Oswald said about what. I tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you know, but just couldn't. I just don't remember.

Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask an opinion of you here? If he were working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in Russia for, say, 2 years, would it be possible to become that fluent in Russian--just from the fact of working--just from the fact of working there?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I think so. Yes; I think so--because, after all, you rub shoulders with Russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the time. It's good that you ask the question, because there was one more suspicious thing about Oswald. According to hearsay, his wife said that Oswald had a very nice apartment in Russia--modern apartment. And they just don't give such apartments to anybody. You know, they usually have to earn that to get it.

Mr. DAVIS. Did she tell this to you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I never met her. But I heard from other people--I think, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said that, I believe.

Mr. DAVIS. That they had a very nice apartment?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that they had a very modern, nice apartment in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. What would a nice apartment in Russia be? Just one room?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No.

Mr. JENNER. What concept did you have in your mind when Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said to you, "They had a very nice apartment in Russia?" What did you think they had?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't think of apartment. I immediately thought of why must they have it. I thought maybe he had a roomette with a bath and kitchen. Something like that, you know. Certainly not nice according to our standards here. That's for sure. But there was another little thing. Marina supposedly mentioned that Russians did not like him; that his workers actually hated him.

And that was another hint to me--that why did they hate him? Usually, Russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. They like foreigners. Now, why would they hate a guy? And I come to conclusion that maybe he reported on them--or something like that. You know, little by little--but do you understand, sir, that everything I say, taken separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. But you just put it together and it sort of tells something to us, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You go right ahead. What you put together and what impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. So, don't be embarrassed about it or hesitant. I want you to say, in giving these impressions, why, what you base them on--and I understand that you are rationalizing.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Did you want to ask a question, Mr. Davis?

Mr. DAVIS. Do you recall if George De Mohrenschildt ever mentioned to you the fact that the Oswalds had been in Moscow for any period of time?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; he never did.

Mr. DAVIS. You don't recall anything about them being in Moscow?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember anyone mentioning them being in Moscow. Wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper--or maybe his mother mentioned it--his being in Moscow? Didn't she? I think his mother mentioned this in connection with his seeing some CIA man with the American Embassy in Moscow. I believe I did read something somewhere. Some of her gossip, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Some of her gossip?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you, when you're giving us these impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of the time----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. And not influenced by what you have learned and read since November 22, 1963.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And that's what you are doing, is it not?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Fine.

We interrupted you. You were relating your rationalization as to your fear or aversion to this person known as Lee Oswald, who had been in Russia and had come to America with his wife and child----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. And why, in your mind at this time about which you speak, you were fearful that despite Mr. De Mohrenschildt's attempted reassurances to you that he, Oswald, wasn't acting like a person who was free of Russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to Russia, who you expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not, and these were things he wasn't doing--from which you concluded you had some misgivings, at least.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And have you recounted all of that now?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have completed your rationalizing statement in that connection?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Mrs. Voshinin, was there a period of time or a series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to the activities of Mr. De Mohrenschildt and also his present wife with respect to trips to Houston, Tex.?

Mrs. VOSHININ. It didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his business affairs--but we just noticed that he was traveling to Texas.

Mr. JENNER. To Houston?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I mean to Houston. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Were these regular?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite regular. And usually it would coincide, somehow, with his next assignment. You see, you asked me to think at that time, prior to November 22, 1963. At that time, it did not bother us at all. We just didn't give much thought to that.

Mr. JENNER. But you noticed it?

Mrs. VOSHININ. We noticed it definitely. Yes. Because he was always expecting some telephone calls from Houston. If they would be at our house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone number, you know, to call him--and it would be from Houston.

But he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely impossible to remember everywhere where he went. I know that he went a lot to New York on business; he went a lot to Philadelphia on his private business--private life. Of course, that would include Dee Dee Sharples--concerning his third wife and children. They had disagreement there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these Houston trips recently?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; recently. And we discussed also those Houston trips before November 22--because our friends, the Jitkoffs, they mentioned to us that they don't like George at all and they didn't want us to bring him to their house. And I asked why, and she didn't want to tell exactly why, but she said something about some people--some character whom he is visiting in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Character?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you gather from that? Did she use the word "character"?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; _Teep_ [phonetic] is "type" in Russia. That means "character" in English. You know, it means type of a person.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I appreciate what you mean by character--but what kind of a person?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, unsavory character.

Mr. JENNER. Unsavory character?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood politically unsavory.

Mr. JENNER. Politically unsavory?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's what I understood.

And also Mr. and Mrs. Jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise that we became friendly with De Mohrenschildts again--and I assumed that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Did they name the person?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember their naming the person; no. But she said something--I just don't remember, really, what she said. But we thought that the Jitkoffs don't know George De Mohrenschildt too well, you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you know, the bad character of George. Because, if you know him well, you can see why he thinks. [laughing]

Mr. JENNER. Did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect on the matter, that the trips to Houston could possibly have had some connection with Oswald?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Never. No. In fact, we didn't think of Oswald very much.

Mr. JENNER. I am talking about your rationalizing last night or----

Mrs. VOSHININ. No. It never did. No. I was quite certain that it had something to do with his Haitian assignment. It was rather business trips.

Mr. JENNER. But you do know that you were not aware of what the character of his business was in Houston, if he had any?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You just assumed he had business in Houston?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't know?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I didn't know.

(Off-the-record discussion follows.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, we have inquired of Mr. Voshinin about the famous walking trip of the De Mohrenschildts from the border of Mexico and the United States to Panama.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make such a trip?

Mrs. VOSHININ. He says he did--and he brought some films and some photo pictures--photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there was that volcano eruption, you know--so I assume that he did make the trip.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive any cards from them as they wended their way down?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we were not on speaking terms with them.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, this is the period when you were not friendly?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No.

Mr. JENNER. And afterward, when they got back----

Mrs. VOSHININ. We met them at Ballens.

Mr. JENNER. And some of the friendship was restored?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you did see moving pictures of----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; of their jungle life.

Mr. JENNER. Jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt included?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but, of course, it was either he or she--because one of them was taking pictures.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. But you saw representations in the movie film of him----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and you saw also her----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. In the moving film when he was taking, or you assumed?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. That drew your attention to a particular incident, did it?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; it did not. It only--you know what I was actually wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures could have been taken elsewhere but in Mexico, you know. But, then, when I saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know. Because I just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that distance.

Mr. JENNER. The volcano eruption--did that sequence of frames in the movie strip, did it include pictures of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. It was a very beautiful picture.

Mr. JENNER. And did the movie film also show him in that area?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; Uh-uh.

Mr. JENNER. Did they say where the volcano was?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I am not sure they said where it was.

Mr. JENNER. Yucatan?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't think it was Yucatan. No.

Mr. JENNER. What is your best recollection?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Somewhere near Parikutin, I believe. Somewhere there.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] P-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n--because this is one of the recently erupted volcanoes in Mexico--Parikutin.

Mr. JENNER. All right. When was this event--the walking trip from the border to Panama?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know. Chronologically, you mean, when was this?

Mr. JENNER. Well, give me the time, first, the year--as you best recall now.

Mrs. VOSHININ. I really cannot do that. Because it was in 1959 that Khrushchev came to this country, right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I believe so.

Mrs. VOSHININ. So, before that, we broke our relationship, right? And we restored it after the trip.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, the trip came after Mr. Khrushchev had visited this country?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Visited this country. And it was 1961, I would say. They returned probably in 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated invasion of Cuba?

Mrs. VOSHININ. You mean, that President Kennedy is----

Mr. DAVIS. Bay of Pigs.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; the Bay of Pigs.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I do remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this walking trip with respect to that event--at the same time, a little bit before, a little after?

Mrs. VOSHININ. You know, I couldn't say absolutely. I'm very bad on dates--and I don't remember even the date of the Bay of Pigs. When was that?

Mr. JENNER. Now, you've put me in a bad spot.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, it was in--shortly after 1960. It would be about March of 1960.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. The President was elected in November 1960.

Mr. DAVIS. It was very shortly after that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the invasion of the Bay of Pigs occurred after the President's election, and my recollection is that it was in December, December of 1960, or January of 1961.

Mr. DAVIS. I think it was probably about that time--or in February.

Mr. JENNER. It was sometime very shortly after he took office. During the first 2 or 3 months of 1961. It wasn't long after he had been inaugurated and he was inaugurated January 9, I think it was, 1961.

Mr. DAVIS. The 20th is inauguration.

Mr. JENNER. Twentieth of January?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. I think it was in late February or early March.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's reasonably accurate.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh. Maybe they were in Haiti at that time. I don't know really. Really, I'm afraid to say.

Mr. JENNER. They might have been in Haiti?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In Haiti. Because I know that they told us that on the way back, they stopped for about a month in Haiti to get their breath--to rest a little.

Mr. JENNER. On the way back from the Mexican walking trip?

Mrs. VOSHININ. From the Mexican walking trip; yes. They walked through Panama, from there they took airplane to Haiti and stayed there a month--and then came back.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever say anything or did you ever have the impression that they had visited Cuba?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No. No. But something--I think he did not visit Cuba. I believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in Cuba, something like that, on the airport. But I'm not sure about that at all. I believe he said.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a time when he visited Ghana?

Mrs. VOSHININ. There was; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well, tell us about that.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, that was after he came back from Yugoslavia. I don't remember before or after he went second time to Yugoslavia. I think it was before he went second time to Yugoslavia. And I am pretty sure that he was in Ghana because he brought a newspaper--Ghana newspaper--and there was a picture, small picture. I didn't read the article, but I noticed there a line which said, "A well-known philatelist, George De Mohrenschildt"--which caught my eye. So, I thought, my God! That's one of George's antics again! [Laughter.]

Mr. DAVIS. Was he a stamp collector?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No.

Mr. DAVIS. And this article said he was?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the article said; yes. But I just glanced through it, I mean. That's what caught my eye. That's all.

And then he also brought some photographs from Ghana--so I'm pretty sure he was there.

Mr. JENNER. You saw some photographs from Ghana?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Ghana.

Mr. JENNER. And you saw this newspaper?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and I saw the newspaper--and I believe this newspaper was in English. The French newspaper was from Haiti--right. And the English one was from Ghana; yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was a Ghana newspaper published in English?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; in English language--written in English language. And that's what it said there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever talk to him about that?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so. I believe I asked him, and he said that he went there on account of some Swedish, I believe, businessmen to look for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you know--that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you are geologists looking for oil, you know.

But then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of George's trip because George repeatedly hinted that he was doing some services for the State Department, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Of the United States?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Of the United States; yes. And under those circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you know. And maybe I assumed that, but he definitely hinted--made certain hints. He never said that he is an employee, though, you know. For example, about his trip to Yugoslavia, he would say, "I made it with the knowledge of the State Department." You know. And then when he came back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. And then on few other foreign trips, he also said that--sort of, you know, hinted that that was what.

Mr. JENNER. What foreign trip?

Mrs. VOSHININ. He was traveling to Europe several times, I forget which.

Mr. JENNER. Yugoslavia, Ghana?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, let me have--I have it on piece of paper.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you have?

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Referring to paper which she took from her bag.] Prior to 1955, he told me, he was in Cuba. He was drilling there. That was before--long before Castro. Right?

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drilling some well--made some very good oil discovery in Cuba.

Then he worked in Mexico. That's what he said. Prior to 1955 sometime. Then he went to Yugoslavia from 1957 to 1958, I believe. That's what it says here. Then he visited Europe back on his way from Yugoslavia. And he brought some pictures from Poland, Sweden, and from France. Those three countries.

Mr. JENNER. Did you recognize any of them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I haven't been in either of this countries. And I believe he went to Poland, he said, because, you know, he lived formerly in Poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a look at it. And then he said that he went to France to meet his first wife and child. I believe she is--I believe Alex was at that time in France. And he went to Sweden for business matters. I understood that some Swedish people arranged the Ghana trip of his.

Then, also, on the way to Ghana, he went to Europe. I believe he said to Sweden again and then to Ghana. And then--I'm not sure whether he was twice in Ghana or only once. I'm quite sure once he was there. Then, he went to Haiti several times.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware that he was making these trips. Now, whether he actually made them or not, you don't know----

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that he told you that?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; and then he disappeared, you know. And he would tell us and then, of course, go away. But, for example, Ghana is quite certain, I think, because of this newspaper--so, that's why. And, then, we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "Ghana" on the airplane, I mean, but----[Laughter.]

And then I noticed he visited--he mentioned that he visited--I don't know--he mentioned that he visited Guatemala and Dominican Republic sometime in between.

Mr. JENNER. Sometime in between what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In between his walking trip and 1955.

Mr. JENNER. That was in between 1955 and his walking trip that he had visited Guatemala and the Dominican Republic?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he mentioned, at least, visiting them--but I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of his absences from Dallas?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; definitely.

Mr. JENNER. And the general conversation in the community in which you moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be making?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his experiences in these various places and countries?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what his business there was. Nobody was interested in that anyway.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. He wouldn't tell anything about it. But he would tell, yes; about--he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from Europe, from Ghana, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture postcards or things he had purchased?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; there were taken photographs.

Mr. JENNER. Ones that he took?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

And also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, Now, I don't remember--from Yugoslavia we definitely got a card. Yes; we got a card from Sweden from him; and from Haiti we got a card.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you got cards from Haiti----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Before this last Haiti trip?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so; yes; I don't remember very well; yes.

You know, when he went to Haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did not get any cards from him then. But before that and then after they moved to Haiti we did.

Mr. JENNER. You did get cards?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of his departing for Haiti on this present sojourn of his?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; quite.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. When you first learned of it, what he said, what she said, and then his departure.

Mrs. VOSHININ. A few months before their departure, he told us that he is working on getting a job with Haiti and that--I understood--that foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with the State Department again. It was not just invitation of the Haiti Government.

And he worked on that for a few months, and he was traveling quite a lot.

Mr. JENNER. Back and forth to Haiti?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Not to Haiti. I don't know where. Because sometimes he won't even mention where he goes, just when--or sometimes on business trips.

Then, he went to Haiti to arrange the trip. He came back and he brought from Haiti a newspaper in which--French newspaper--in French--and it stated there about the survey which was given to De Mohrenschildt & Co. I don't know who the company is. And he brought also some statement from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. It wasn't a statement. It was a letter from the bank saying that $20,000 was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and I understand it was by Haitian Government. That's what it was--as far as I remember.

Then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money in sisal plantation--[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. You know, making in rope.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you use sisal to make rope.

Mrs. VOSHININ. And I asked him whether he was going just to manage sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time. He says, "No; I want to invest some money into that."

And I understood that his intention was to settle down in Haiti. It's possible, you know. He was looking for some country for some longer time to settle down and live in that country. He was considering Costa Rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very much. And then he decided that Haiti would be very nice place to settle down, also.

Mr. JENNER. This walking trip down through Mexico and Central and South America, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, I think so. And she said she was very ill on that trip.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. In these movies, how were they dressed?

Mrs. VOSHININ. According to the film, he was wearing shorts and she was wearing very torn dress--which looked like that Tarzan lady on the films, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. And some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything on [laughing], with very little dress on.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression that this was deliberate because they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Robbed, you mean.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; robbed.

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, I thought it was more practical--because the branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing you have always it is the better. However, they were traveling with a mule which probably would be considered by Southern American robbers as valuable thing. So, they could have been robbed. In fact, they were attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. You know, they were shooting.

But, they were very poorly dressed because Jeanne told me that they were taken in the cities for paupers--they were mistaken for paupers, and people would lend them money.

Mr. JENNER. Give them pesos?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes [laughing].

Mr. JENNER. All of which, I am sure, Mr. De Mohrenschildt enjoyed thoroughly?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Tremendously [laughing].

Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember any more, I wish you would tell us about De Mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the Oswalds and the impressions that you gained of the Oswalds--as to how they got along whether he treated her well or poorly?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oswalds--his wife?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Treated very poorly. Because De Mohrenschildt told us that he was beating her. Then, she ran away from him and De Mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. And after the reconciliation, Jeanne mentioned twice that Marina had blue eyes--was beaten again, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Black and blue eyes?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them returning to Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Either of whom?

Mr. JENNER. Either of the Oswalds?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Returning to Russia? No; I don't remember. No; I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. No mention of the fact--if it was a fact--that Oswald wanted Marina to return to Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Or, that they both desired to return to Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I never heard that.

Mr. JENNER. Just nothing at all concerning----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Nothing at all concerning that.

Mr. JENNER. Any conversation that came to your attention with respect to Marina undertaking to have some command of the English language and the reaction of Oswald to that?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that was discussed by De Mohrenschildt. And George thought that Marina wanted very much to study English and that Lee prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. And I remember that Jeanne said something that he found some English book that she had, was trying to learn English behind his back, and he was very angry.

Incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed against Oswald, you know. Because the why--you know, the reason that he gave. Why would he want that?

Because, really, there was one more point that was very strange about Oswald--my feelings were. He sort of wanted to cut off the communication of Marina--even with Russian people. Because he was so unpleasant to Russians--to those folks around who tried to help her, you know. He was quite rude, quite unpleasant--and, for some reason, we got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate with people, to learn English, or to be together with Russians.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, I'd like to ask you a few questions about that. That's why I asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became acquainted. This was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in which you moved is concerned?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that that community was Bouhe, De Mohrenschildts--and however you may have liked or disliked them in their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? Now, this would be especially true, for example, of Marina--that you'd like to bring her into the circle?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I really can't say because we are not very close with that circle, St. Nicholas circle, you know--St. Nicholas Parish circle.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I really am not thinking about that particular parish.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to put the background to what was bothering you--that the normal thing that you expected--would expect of these people----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yeah. I understand you now. Yeah. Quite.

Mr. JENNER. Was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in Russian?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or otherwise to acquire facility with the English language----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. That's the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country--you know, just do it as soon as possible. Right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And what did you understand with respect to her education?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not have a higher education because she was too young in age and I believe that George mentioned that she went 2 years to college. Now, that wouldn't be college in Russia. It might be something----

Mr. JENNER. No. It would be something like junior college here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Juniors or something like that. It would give her technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention, in moving about your friends and the people here, her general level of erudition and education and intelligence in comparison with his?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No. Now, of course, what I'm saying is hearsay, right?

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that.

Mrs. VOSHININ. But several people said differently. For example, I heard from the ladies--from the Russian ladies of our parish that she was--you could see that she comes from an intelligent family, from a nice, you know, well-educated family. She has good manners and everything and she was quite a clever girl. Now, then, that she was sort of, I thought, more clever than he was. You know, some people who are more developed----

Mr. JENNER. And more educated?

Mrs. VOSHININ. And more educated. Yes. While George insisted on just the opposite. He was absolutely impressed with Oswald's mental powers, for some reason. And he sort of looked down at Marina, you know, a little bit.

So, I really don't know what to think.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last you heard from the De Mohrenschildts?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That was Christmas. We received a card from them.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; it was in 1963.

Mr. JENNER. And what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to that time--that is, while they were still in Haiti?

Mrs. VOSHININ. With the De Mohrenschildts before Christmas 1963?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she wrote me two letters; I wrote her one letter.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any contact with the children--either of Mrs. De Mohrenschildt or of Mr. De Mohrenschildt--recently?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we were visited by her daughter--by Chris--twice. Once it was before Christmas and----

Mr. JENNER. But after November 22?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes. Right. It was about 3 weeks before Christmas, I believe, or 2 weeks. And now they were recently here, just--they left on March 15. They left Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Did they say anything during the course of this social visit, or visit here, about the De Mohrenschildts--George and Jeanne or Jean or Eugene?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, Eugenia is right. You know they said so much, I just hate to repeat it because I just don't know how much they exaggerated. They were angry with both of them and I just don't believe that----

Mr. JENNER. Well, I don't want you to repeat all the personal things. I wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that they were angry with George De Mohrenschildt and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Angry in what sense?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Uh--they said that they were not very hospitable for one thing and, for another things, they--well, they said that George and Jeanne took a turn for the worse politically.

Mr. JENNER. Well, now, would you develop that, please?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I hate to do that, because I just don't know how true it all is.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that all you are doing is telling us what they said. It is pure hearsay. I understand.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Pure hearsay of angry children.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what it is. Right?

Well, they said that the majority of their trouble with Jeanne and George was because they were shooting their mouths off there--pro-left and against United States--something to that effect; Chris said that George was making the most--the funniest accusations--statements in public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. That he does not believe that Oswald murdered the President; that he believes that rightwing or FBI, I am not sure--and this was, of course, awfully shocking to children.

Mr. JENNER. He believed that the rightwing or the FBI what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's what the children said.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Murdered the President. That's what the children said and I, frankly don't----

Mr. JENNER. You don't put much stock in it?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Did the children express any opinion as to whether these were rantings or nonsense or----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Of course, they were outraged by the statement, like everybody is. But what I want to say only that sometimes George gets so bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what he says. So, that's why I believe that you cannot approach George or Jeanne to this extent with standard measures. You cannot measure them by standard measures at all--what they say or what they do even. They require different measures.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that opinion on your part is something that we necessarily must weigh. We are trying to find out about these personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings and rantings and nonsense. These things come to our attention, Mrs. Voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run them down. The fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving them consideration----

Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that.

Mr. JENNER. As to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay and rumor----

Mrs. VOSHININ. I realize that.

Mr. JENNER. Even though you, as a dedicated and loyal American, you would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is nonsense. And we have to exercise some judgment.

Now, I think I have pretty well completed my questioning of you. I would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit.

Is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation? It might be a source leading us to something that might be helpful--that you would like to suggest to us? People who might know, incidents that occurred that I haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? Anything at all that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of the assassination of the President, John F. Kennedy?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I can't think of anything. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't think of anything?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No. I can't think of anything--people that might be useful.

Mr. JENNER. Well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful? It might be somebody different from the De Mohrenschildts or it might be an incident that occurred.

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Pausing before reply.] You know, I heard the rumors that--like everybody else heard--which you have heard definitely--but I don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. That's the trouble. I don't know any particular person who could throw any light on that thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; all right. We have occasionally been off the record and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to your testimony, which I failed to bring out?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; I think that we covered the ground pretty thoroughly.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that took place in those discussions that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your testimony, which I, in turn, failed to bring out?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't quite understand that question.

Mr. JENNER. Well, what I'm getting at is this: Is there anything in the discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as I brought it out that ought to be on the record?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't remember very well what was off the record and what was on. But I don't think so. I think everything was on.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You think I have brought out everything?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Everything; yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Now, Mrs. Voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly I should also say the right--I must say the right--to read over your deposition when it has been transcribed by the reporter--which we hope will be next week. Either I will be here or other representatives of the Commission will be in Dallas for at least the next 2 weeks. You and your husband call in and ask for Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney, and he'll know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read it.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something, and you will want to make some change. And you may have a copy of your deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her regular rates are.

Mrs. VOSHININ. All right.

Mr. JENNER. And you may purchase one. Your husband, I should say, expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box [laughter].

Mrs. VOSHININ. A historical document!

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, thank you so much. I hope you didn't think I was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely.

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; not at all.

Mr. DAVIS. And I enjoyed your accent immensely. It has brought back very wonderful memories for me.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ

The testimony of Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 9 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, would you stand and be sworn, please?

Do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. VOSHININ. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Your name is Igor Vladimir Voshinin?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, the Presidential Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy desires to inquire of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons you may have known here in Dallas or in the Dallas area, who had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald, or information that you might have that would help the Commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy.

Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, with which was enclosed copy of Executive Order No. 11130, creating a Commission?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress of the United States authorizing the Commission?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to proceed to take your deposition.

You reside where?

Mr. VOSHININ. 3504 Mockingbird Lane in Highland Park, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And is Highland Park a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right; but it is an independent community.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; how long have you resided in Highland Park, Tex.?

Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Prior to that time where did you reside?

Mr. VOSHININ. In University Park.

Mr. JENNER. Also a suburb----

Mr. VOSHININ. An independent community and suburb.

Mr. JENNER. And for how long did you reside there?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, since 1957, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. VOSHININ. Now, it may be late in 1956.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business or occupation or profession?

Mr. VOSHININ. I am a professional engineer.

Mr. JENNER. And by whom are you employed, or are you an independent engineer?

Mr. VOSHININ. At this time I am employed by Mullen & Powell, consulting engineers.

Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that name, please?

Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] M-u-l-l-e-n & P-o-w-e-l-l.

Mr. JENNER. What area of engineering do you direct your attention?

Mr. VOSHININ. In structural engineering.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mr. VOSHININ. I am.

Mr. JENNER. By naturalization or birth?

Mr. VOSHININ. By naturalization.

Mr. JENNER. And when were you naturalized?

Mr. VOSHININ. I have to see [looking through billfold]. It must be 1954--I'm sorry to delay you.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, take it easy. We have plenty of time. Don't let it worry you a bit.

(The witness hands card to Mr. Jenner.)

Mr. JENNER. [Reading] March 7, 1955?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. In the light of that, Mr. Voshinin, in what country were you born?

Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia before the Revolution.

Mr. JENNER. And how old a man are you?

Mr. VOSHININ. I was born in 1906--so, therefore, I am 58 years old.

Mr. JENNER. You are 1 year older than I am. I'll be 57 next June. And did you alone, or your family, come directly to the United States from Russia?

Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Without detail, tell us how you came to this country and approximately when.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, we were living in southern Russia, which was in the hands of the White Army, and when the Communists advanced, since we were close, our family left from a port on the Black Sea.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was this?

Mr. VOSHININ. That was in 1920--early in 1920.

Mr. JENNER. You were then 14 years old, approximately?

Mr. VOSHININ. Thirteen--yeah.

Me and my mother we left first for Greece and then to Turkey, and my father left directly to Turkey and we met in Constantinople, now Istanbul in Turkey.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mr. VOSHININ. And, after that, we altogether went to Yugoslavia where we lived up to this last war.

Mr. JENNER. 1940----

Mr. VOSHININ. In 1942, the Germans forced me to go to work to Germany, and actually, I jumped their train and remained in Austria close to Yugoslavia. And after--by the end of the war when the Communists were close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come to Kempten----

Mr. JENNER. To what?

Mr. VOSHININ. To Kempten in south Bavaria--[spelling] K-e-m-p-t-en--and that's where we met the American Army.

Mr. JENNER. What you mean is that the American Army in its advance reached the Bavarian area and freed you?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, the American Army came to Kempten on 25th of April and we reached Kempten on the 12th of April. So, I was just 13 days in Germany before the American Army.

Mr. JENNER. Are you married?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. And what is your wife's name?

Mr. VOSHININ. Natalie.

Mr. JENNER. And where did you marry her?

Mr. VOSHININ. Belgrade, Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. VOSHININ. It was in 1940.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a family?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; I have no children. I have only my father here.

Mr. JENNER. When did you come to the United States?

Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--it was November 12, 1947.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife accompanied you at that time?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And you settled where in this country?

Mr. VOSHININ. We settled first in New York.

Mr. JENNER. City?

Mr. VOSHININ. New York City, for some time, then we mostly lived in New Jersey.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive a higher education--that is, an education beyond high school equivalent?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what that was, please, and where?

Mr. VOSHININ. I have bachelor degree in civil engineering from the University of Belgrade, 1931, and the master degree in civil engineering from the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. And the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute is in New York City, or its environs?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right--in Brooklyn.

Mr. JENNER. And you have pursued your profession in civil engineering----

Mr. VOSHININ. Since 1931, up to now--except for the time of war.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give me the dates again when you were in Yugoslavia?

Mr. VOSHININ. From the middle of 1920 to 1942.

Mr. JENNER. 1942? Is that when the Germans sought to bring you to Germany and you escaped then to Austria?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. That was an escape, wasn't it?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. Because they dragged everybody to the Rhine, you know--and somehow I managed, with other people, to get out of that train. There were hundreds of people who got out.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you stay in Austria, then, throughout the war?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; almost out through the war.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Austria was occupied by the Germans also, was it not?

Mr. VOSHININ. Austria was occupied also as well as Yugoslavia. And, of course, you had to go to the labor office--because otherwise I would be arrested immediately.

Mr. DAVIS. When you'd go there, they'd let you stay in Austria?

Mr. VOSHININ. You see, every labor office was grabbing for labor force--whoever would come, you know. And, therefore, they would not disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. So, I--when I got out of the train with two other fellows--and, of course, it has cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You had to do a little bribery?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, to three persons there--including the guard which was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. When we came out, we had seen about a hundred people who did the same thing--so, it probably was going--big business there.

Mr. DAVIS. When did you come to Dallas?

Mr. VOSHININ. 1955--about the first of September.

Mr. JENNER. You were naturalized in New York City?

Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; in New Brunswick, N.J.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, New Brunswick, N.J.?

Mr. VOSHININ. New Brunswick, N.J. Yeah. We mostly preferred to live in New Jersey, you know. It's a little better air. I'm an asthmatic, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You're asthmatic?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I'm asthmatic--and, therefore, I have to choose my climate.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin--was she likewise born in Russia?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right. Only she's 12 years younger so when her parents took her out of Russia, then she was 1 year old.

Mr. JENNER. She probably wouldn't remember then.

Mr. VOSHININ. She doesn't know anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you came to Dallas in September of 1955, had you had any advance acquaintance with anybody here?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I knew two persons whom I met through the church.

Mr. JENNER. And what church is that?

Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--the church in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. What is the name of it and what is its denomination?

Mr. VOSHININ. Greek Orthodox Church.

Mr. JENNER. Greek Orthodox Church?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I don't know what the church's name is. I think it's St. Vladimir--but I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. St. Vladimir?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so--but I'm not quite sure that was the name. And the thing is that we wanted to settle in Houston first----

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. VOSHININ. But we didn't like the climate. And the people there they gave us the name of Mr. Raigorodsky--Paul Raigorodsky.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that last name, please.

Mr. VOSHININ. R-a-i-g-o-r-o-d-s-k-y.

Mr. JENNER. Is he of Russian descent--or Yugoslavian or what?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; Russian.

Mr. JENNER. He had preceded you to this country?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long?

Mr. VOSHININ. He was the first Russian immigrant who settled here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. VOSHININ. And he is a millionaire--a very rich man.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known him?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know him personally but the priest there, the pastor, you know, of our denomination in Houston said that when you go to Dallas--we said that we passed through Dallas going to Houston and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there. So we said, "Well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there, but we don't know anybody."

So, he said, "Well, why don't you--we have two men who are able to help you--and this is Mr. Raigorodsky and Mr. Bouhe--George Bouhe." The Russians are referring--joking about Raigorodsky--they call him, "the Czar," here.

Mr. JENNER. Yeah.

Mr. VOSHININ. So--he's an old man--and so when we came, then the next day--it was during our vacation in 1955--and so we went to see Raigorodsky and then we went to see Bouhe. And they told us that there is a church of our denomination here on McKinney and a few other just useful things--nothing in particular.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Well, the main thing I wanted--when you came to Dallas, you didn't know anybody?

Mr. VOSHININ. No.

Mr. JENNER. You then became acquainted with Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. VOSHININ. Bouhe--and Mr. Raigorodsky. Mr. Raigorodsky we kind of liked--and Mr. Bouhe we kind of disliked.

Mr. DAVIS. Was there any special reason for that other than just----

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, Mr. Bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to mix in their affairs----

Mr. JENNER. Their personal affairs?

Mr. VOSHININ. And tell them what to do and what not to do. And I don't need a nurse here now. I like to listen to people's advice but I don't like to have a nurse. I'm grown up. That's why I don't like--didn't like his approach too well.

Mr. JENNER. Bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a little aggressive in your personal affairs?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. Well, he is with everybody. He is an old bachelor, you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do.

Mr. JENNER. May I inquire with respect to that--your aversion, at least initially, to Mr. Bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal affairs--particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and what not to do?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Well, everybody complaining the same way.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. Although I don't mind him helping people.

Mr. JENNER. Specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has it, with any political views that Mr. Bouhe may entertain?

Mr. VOSHININ. No.

Mr. JENNER. And I mean "political" in the sense of his views on government--communism--conservatism--whatever it might be?

Mr. VOSHININ. No. But my impression is that he is rather conservative--in Russian politics, I mean. He always talks about the Czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. In Russia?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Do you regard him, however, as a loyal American?

Mr. VOSHININ. Uh--well, I don't know. We never talked about any American politics with him. So I regard him as far as I don't have any proof otherwise.

Mr. JENNER. You don't suspect him, however, of any Communist affiliation?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well--uh--one is accustomed to suspect everybody.

Mr. JENNER. Well, no more than that?

Mr. VOSHININ. But--uh--no more than that, I would say.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your acquaintance with people here in Dallas broadened, did it not, as time went on?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was largely among that segment of the community or society here of people from Russia, Yugoslavia, and Central European countries?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and Lebanon.

Mr. JENNER. Lebanon, also?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, those people who come to church.

Mr. JENNER. Your acquaintance, initially, was among church folks----

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Who attended your church?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; the Greek Orthodox Church, here on McKinney Avenue--because there is another Greek Orthodox Church on Swiss. That's the church where all the Greek people go, and all the non-Greek people went on McKinney, because on McKinney the service was in the English language.

Mr. JENNER. What is the name of the parish?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, there were two parishes there.

Mr. JENNER. Yeah.

Mr. VOSHININ. On McKinney, there were two parishes in one church. One was called the St. Nicholas Parish and the other, the St. Seraphim Parish.

The St. Seraphim Parish is the English-speaking parish where the services were in English. And at most times that's the parish who held their services there; whereas the building belonged to St. Nicholas Parish--who had their services once in 5 weeks, with their pastor coming from Houston.

Mr. JENNER. And that was Father----

Mr. VOSHININ. Father Alexander.

Mr. JENNER. And the Father of the other parish is Dimitri?

Mr. VOSHININ. Father Dimitri Royster.

Mr. JENNER. Royster?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. And the St. Nicholas Parish secretary-treasurer is Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He's the motivating force, is he?

Mr. VOSHININ. He's the motivating force there--and everything [laughter].

Our sympathies switched very quickly to St. Seraphim Church and I became a member of the church council there at St. Seraphim and--uh--I didn't like to be a member of St. Nicholas any more.

Mr. JENNER. Is that largely because of the aggressiveness of Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. VOSHININ. And because of the irregularity of the church meeting once in 5 weeks--and many other things--and because I believe that the church in this country should be in the language of the country. I think it's natural--it's what it should be in order that our denomination can exist at all--because in two, three generations, the people lose their national language, and then there is no church. Besides that, uh--I--what did I want to say? Besides that, I don't think that's a good idea to divide Christians by their language in thousand and one churches. We have people of six or seven national backgrounds and is--it's absolutely senseless in serving the service in some other language than the language in which everybody can understand. And, therefore, we switched to the St. Seraphim Church--of which we have remained members up to now.

Mr. JENNER. Were these two parishes and the church itself--that is, the Greek Orthodox Church consisting of the two parishes--is that the medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say--from Russia, from Yugoslavia, from----

Mr. VOSHININ. Lebanon; yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Became acquainted?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. Everybody knows everybody.

Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew everybody?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And all rumors and everything else passed back and forth through this group?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. And is it true that arising out of this common interest in the Greek Orthodox Church and the two parishes that a measure of social intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; that is true.

Mr. JENNER. And you people generally became acquainted, one with the other, in not only your church activity but your general social activity as well?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--well, I wouldn't say "general" social activity, because, in addition to the church, I meet people through my office and my wife met them too, so--but partially, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. At least, through that medium, whether you wanted to or not you sort of kept track of everybody?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Everybody knew something about what the other fellow was doing or would like to?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and still keeps files on everybody--when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. VOSHININ. He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you."

I say, "What for?"

And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things--so I keep a file on everybody."

Then, later, the parishes separated, as you know.

Mr. JENNER. The parishes separated. Yes. I've heard that.

Mr. VOSHININ. Because, somehow, their life together, you know, became unbearable and finally the St. Seraphim Church decided to move out.

Mr. JENNER. Of that building?

Mr. VOSHININ. Of that building on McKinney. And we bought a house on Newton and Throckmorton, as you know.

And the St. Nicholas Church remained within empty house which they only used once in 5 weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that house and it was torn away--torn down. And now there is a Gulf station on McKinney.

Mr. JENNER. A Gulf gasoline station?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at the house of Mr. and Mrs. Tsinzadze (phonetic).

Mr. JENNER. Hold it. Can you spell that?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know how to spell that. This is a Georgian name. These are Georgian people.

Mr. JENNER. By "Georgian," you mean----

Mr. VOSHININ. From Georgia.

Mr. JENNER. From the Georgia part of Russia?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. It's the [spelling] T-s-i-n-z-a-d-z-e, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. That's good enough.

Mr. VOSHININ. And we have been perhaps two or three times since that in Tsinzadze's house--because my father, I think, goes to confession there. He cannot go to the English confession. He prefers to have his confession in the Russian language. So, they still have, a pastor coming there--but not from Houston. That pastor who was in Houston is now in Johannesburg, South Africa. And they have a retired pastor from Galveston--from the Galveston Greek Orthodox Church--who comes there once in 5 weeks or so and they have services.

So, perhaps once in the year we go there--or twice.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Voshinin, this is very interesting to me. Would you describe this community of people in your own words? Tell me about the community as a group.

Mr. VOSHININ. St. Nicholas?

Mr. JENNER. No; the whole--this Russian----

Mr. VOSHININ. They are not only Russians there. Of course, Russians--you said Russians--Yugoslav, Lebanese--but in addition to that, there are those people--Estonians and Latvians. You see, there are a lot of Latvians and Estonians who are Greek Orthodox. Well, you see, there is a national differentiation now--yeah--in addition, I can take another nationality. These are people--west Ukrainians and Carpathian Russians. These people have former Austrian citizenship and Polish citizenship. They come from that part which is known as Galicia.

So, nowdays, the people who are in St. Nicholas parish--we call that "Bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. That's what we usually call Bouhe's parish.

Mr. DAVIS. He's still the secretary of that parish?

Mr. VOSHININ. He's still the secretary of that parish--yeah.

These people are mostly those Baltic people there, with few Russians. There are perhaps about 5 Russians there and about 15 to 20 Estonians and Latvians. That is St. Nicholas though, whereas the St. Seraphim Church has a much wider, of course, background because there are Russians there, there are Yugoslavs--it's true that Bouhe's group has some Yugoslavs but they never come to his church--not very often at least--very rare; but they come to us, too--so I don't think they are members any place--those to which I'm talking about.

But in our church there are a lot of--well, not too many Russians there--not many people with Russian background in our city at all; but we have those called Carpathian Russians and West Ukrainians and we have some Serbians--people with Serbian backgrounds; we have some Greek people even; we have all the Arabic people here--you know, Lebanese and other Arabic countries which are Greek Orthodox; and we have American people with just plain Anglo-American background who became members.

Mr. JENNER. Who became interested in the Greek Orthodox Church?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh.

Mr. VOSHININ. Our pastor himself, was a former Baptist who, through study of church history, became Orthodox.

Mr. JENNER. Is this group--and I'm going to call the group both Bouhe's following as well as the group in which you move--are they, by and large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country or in Europe, or Asia?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; in Bouhe's group there are only a few people with higher education; whereas, in our group, I would say there is a lot of people with higher education. We have doctors and engineers and----

Mr. JENNER. These people, I take it, are interested in the welfare of others in the group--in the general sense of the word?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did there move into this community or come into this community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some people by the name--or a man by the name--whose last name was De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes--except that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in God.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, he is an atheist--but he did arrive on the scene or he was on the scene----

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was on the scene for a long time before we arrived here.

Mr. JENNER. He was here?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was here.

Mr. JENNER. When you came here then, in September 1955, you found De Mohrenschildt already here?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And was he active among these people--even though, as you say, he's an atheist?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he was singing in the church choir.

Mr. JENNER. He was singing in the church choir even though----

Mr. VOSHININ. At St. Nicholas.

Mr. JENNER. Even though he was an atheist?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's rather unusual. How did that strike you?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to church.

Mr. JENNER. Even though he didn't believe in church?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, he said he doesn't believe in it but----

Mr. JENNER. And was De Mohrenschildt married at that time?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. To whom?

Mr. VOSHININ. To the Sharples girl.

Mr. JENNER. What are they--Quakers?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, I guess so. Dee Dee, I think, was her name. I don't know what it stands for. She was a medical doctor--his wife.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know of De Mohrenschildt's background?

Mr. VOSHININ. Only what he told me, of course.

Mr. JENNER. And what was said by others in this community of people?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; something what was said by others.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You give me his background as you learned it by reputation among the people you have described.

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Well, De Mohrenschildt comes from a Swedish family.

Mr. JENNER. You mean, by reputation, he was born in Sweden?

Mr. VOSHININ. No. He was born, as I heard, in Baku in Azerbaijan. This is part of Southern Russia and Baku is in Azerbaijan on the Caspian Sea.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. And I understand that his father was a nobleman and born in Russia somewhere from Swedish parents--and that he was a rich man and----

Mr. JENNER. His father was a rich man?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some other interests which led him to go to Baku, because Baku is the oil town in Russia.

So, probably a very substantially rich man.

As he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested--I don't know by whom--and I think his mother, too, as I understand, and he, as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and hungry. And then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to get out of prison, and they moved to Poland.

He told us that he got his high school education in Poland and then went to the military school in Poland and finished the military school and became a Polish cavalry officer--and he was proudly showing his picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. So--but, somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to school in France and Belgium, I guess, and, as he told us--I never saw his diploma--but he told us he has a Ph. D. degree in economics.

Mr. JENNER. From a school in Belgium?

Mr. VOSHININ. Belgium or in France. I don't know. I--you know, I don't like to question people too much.

Mr. JENNER. No. All you're doing is giving me what he said and what is at large in the community we talked about.

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So--but I don't know exactly, you know, if I would think if it would be of interest for anybody I would try to remember, of course, better but--somewhere, I don't know. He probably told me from which school it was, but I don't remember.

After that, he decided to emigrate to the United States, came here and saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again--and he went to school in Austin.

Mr. JENNER. Austin, Tex.?

Mr. VOSHININ. Austin, Tex.--and in Colorado. Now, whether it was Colorado the University or Colorado the School of Mines, I don't know. But he finally became a petroleum engineer. As I understand, he earned his master's degree.

After that, he went to work in some southern American country or--I think he was sometime in Mexico and in some other country--I think it was Venezuela, which I'm not sure again, it might be something else. And--uh--then I think he returned here again during the war.

Mr. JENNER. That's the Second World War?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; during the Second World War, and----

Mr. JENNER. When you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the Dallas area or to the United States?

Mr. VOSHININ. To the United States.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. What he did during the war, I don't know; but, after the war, he was working for some oil company. I think he had connections with the oil company in which his father-in-law, Sharples, had some interest--because he was receiving some money from that company even after he divorced his wife--until it finally stopped. But he was--I remember that he was saying, "Well, they stopped my money I received from the Sharples Co." He says, "Now, they got me with this thing. I am not a consultant any more."

He was some kind of consultant for that company--I don't know what of, the company's, that is. So, therefore, you know, I learned that he had received that all the time though. I don't imagine it was too much money, but helping him.

And, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time, you know. So, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and made also some consultations. And I know that before we came here he was very successful in the Caribbean area, and he got big money--real big money.

Mr. JENNER. This is by reputation?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil somewhere. I don't know whether it was Cuba or Haiti. I think it was Cuba. But that must be in 1953--something like that--because I know he was always running around talking about income tax on that money because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which year you receive that and so on.

So, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about that sort of thing.

Mr. JENNER. This is what he said anyway?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's what he said anyway. I was never in business with him--so I don't know.

So, shortly after that, after we came here--you see, how we met him, my wife is a geologist with a Master Degree from Rutgers University; and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which also would give her the possibility to work in her profession--and not be so noisy as New York is. So, she was looking for a job--which was very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist--though we have a dozen of them here. But--so Bouhe gave us--he said, "There is a Russian geologist"--so Bouhe gave my wife the address of Mr. De Mohrenschildt's office. He has a very good--beautiful office in First National Bank. So----

Mr. JENNER. And that's how you met De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's how we met De Mohrenschildt.

So, my wife worked there for about----

Mr. JENNER. She worked in his office?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, for half a day--part-time.

Mr. De Mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "Well, I don't have anything but you can--I want to bring my files in order, you know, and you help me a little so for sometimes I can give you something to start with--and I have a big friend of mine, Mr. Henry Rogatz, who is looking for an assistant. So, he called him on the telephone and he said, "I have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and all your work."

So, Henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day--she worked half a day for De Mohrenschildt and half a day for Rogatz. And my wife only worked for De Mohrenschildt, I think, 2 or 3 weeks and then she moved to Rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he retired--which was about a year and a half ago. So, all that time, my wife worked for Henry Rogatz.

And De Mohrenschildt, in that winter, divorced his wife and closed his office.

Mr. JENNER. What year was this?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he divorced his wife--that was 1956, I would say, and he had trouble with his wife, I think, beginning in that winter--1955 or 1956--and finally he divorced her and after--sometimes after that he also closed his office. I don't know which year exactly he closed his office but that must be around 1956.

And then he--after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard for him because he has, you know--he had some kind of accident, as I understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and he has difficulties to concentrate--and, therefore, he has to have an office where he can--you know, some job which he can walk a little, consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. That's what he explained to me.

Mr. JENNER. Not follow a regimen--be there at 9, have lunch at 12, come back at 2----

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He says he has difficulties doing that--just physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work--to look for foreign assignments; he said that the Government has that Foreign Aid Program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind of job like that and he says he will go to Washington and there are some kind of agents called 5-percenters in Washington who you can--if you find the right man you will get a job.

So, he was traveling back and forth to Washington and so on, and finally he said he got a job in Yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other way out because he's broke. So, he went to Yugoslavia and stayed there for about a year. So, that was----

Mr. JENNER. Was he married then?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; he was not married at that time.

Before that, he met that so-called Mrs. Le Gon, who posed as a French woman, And he met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel----

Mr. JENNER. He met her.

Mr. VOSHININ. He met her at the swimming pool of the Stoneleigh Hotel--because he was living at the Stoneleigh Hotel after his divorce and she was living there----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. He was living there after his divorce--and she was also living there?

Mr. VOSHININ. She was also living there--yes.

She was, as I understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. She went to New York to sell--her permanent residence, as I understand, was Los Angeles or some suburb thereof. But she used to come here and sell her fashion designs to somebody called Clarke, I guess. She was--so, she was temporarily here but pretty often. So, they met there and fell in love, you know, and though she is Russian, of course, she would not say a word Russian; she would talk English with a French accent and saying she was a French woman.

Up to now, I think Mr. De Mohrenschildt does not know everything about his wife. He told me two times that there is something that he doesn't understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she came to the United States; and he says the moment he tries to question her about that--because he says, "It's my wife, I want to know,"--he says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all.

And we know, for example, that every time she meets some Russian from China, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. What it was, I don't know--and even De Mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know.

Mr. JENNER. Is she reputed to have been born in or to have lived in China?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; she is. She was born somewhere in China. Her father's name was Fomenko, she said--[spelling] F-o-m-e-n-k-o--who was an engineer on the East Chinese Railroad----

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Can you describe De Mohrenschildt's personality?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, do you want the further travelings as far as I know?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.

Mr. VOSHININ. So, after--well, he went to Yugoslavia in the middle of that year. When he was in Yugoslavia, she went to visit him there.

Mr. JENNER. His present wife?

Mr. VOSHININ. His present wife.

Mr. JENNER. And, at that time, his present wife was not his wife?

Mr. VOSHININ. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. They were very much in love, you know--and her husband who was here two times and he was chasing De Mohrenschildt, and George De Mohrenschildt says, "He will kill me with a revolver"--and there was some kind of--we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very cheap movie film. But George De Mohrenschildt was so much afraid that he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his Stoneleigh apartment. And, then, her husband, also, as I understand, hired a detective who was running constantly De Mohrenschildt--and all kinds of things like that.

Mr. JENNER. A lot of cloak and dagger?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--cloak and dagger stuff. So after that, they divorced--she divorced her husband--and, you know, he is now in an insane--had some kind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, I don't know what.

Mr. JENNER. In California?

Mr. VOSHININ. In California; yes. Bogoiavlensky is his actual name, not Le Gon.

Mr. JENNER. Why don't we get your spelling on that name? We had somebody try it yesterday. Would you----

Mr. VOSHININ. If you give me a pencil, I may try it.

(After writing name, as set out above, hands paper to Mr. Jenner.)

I think that's it.

Mr. JENNER. That spelling makes sense. I think that's probably an accurate spelling.

Mr. VOSHININ. Her daughter still keeps this name.

Mr. JENNER. What is her daughter's first name--the one you now have in mind?

Mr. VOSHININ. Christina.

Mr. JENNER. Christina. And she also had a child--Alexandra?

Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Did De Mohrenschildt have a daughter by the name of Alexandra?

Mr. VOSHININ. De Mohrenschildt has two daughters, but I wouldn't know their names.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. Though I met both girls, but I somehow slipped up. My wife probably knows them.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. Christina Bogoiavlensky is a very good girl--and her husband, too. They are quite different from the parents.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. VOSHININ. So, after that assignment in Yugoslavia, he had an assignment in Ghana--which somehow puzzled us. First of all, it was a pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us a newspaper edited in Ghana in which, on the first page, was a short article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal stamps--Mr. De Mohrenschildt, who came to Ghana on business as a representative of a Swedish company."

Well, De Mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "Oh, those jerks--they don't know anything."

Mr. JENNER. Now, excuse me. The newspaper account was to the effect that De Mohrenschildt had come to Ghana as a representative of a Swedish company?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know whether the word "Swedish," was in there--but it said, "As a representative,"--and he said that it would be this Swedish company.

Mr. JENNER. He said that it was a Swedish company?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. The newspaper may just had the name of the company, you know.

Mr. JENNER. But it did mention De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. "George De Mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and specialist in stamps"--and so on.

And I said, "George, since when do you understand anything in stamps? Since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?"

"Oh," he said, "I'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also provides Ghana and other African country with stamps, and it also has trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in Africa." So, he says, "I went there as their representative to see what parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil leases and assign--and sign some kind of contract with them--with the Government of Ghana--in their name, and came back to Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. And then he returned to Dallas?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And, later, he also referred that that company has interests in Nigeria--and he says, "you know, I am Swedish--so they rely on me."

The whole thing puzzles us a little because I think there are many geologists in Sweden itself--but perhaps they don't have oil specialists there. I think there is no oil in Sweden.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and the other members of the community think that he was exaggerating or this was all fictional?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I couldn't doubt when the newspaper says that.

Mr. JENNER. When the Ghana newspaper said that?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So he must have been in Ghana. He wouldn't print that newspaper--I hope. But, of course, he is a man who exaggerates a lot. He is that kind of character. I never believe 100 percent of whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk much more than he actually is.

Mr. JENNER. At least, he tended to exaggerate?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because he always posed everybody as a big shot, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Everybody with whom he was associated?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, are--or to whom he met--that he was a, you know, big businessman, big oil man, and so on--big specialist. And he wrote an article about himself in the Oil and Gas Journal about Yugoslavia, his trip to Yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the State Department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually in the Foreign Aid, you know, and that he--and it was said, you know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about himself. You can get that Oil and Gas Journal. And it was said that Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a consultant to at least six different governments and so on. And there was--all kind of countries were there, I don't know which ones but, of course, Yugoslavia was mentioned there. And he tells about his trip to Yugoslavia and he told everybody then after--when he came back from Yugoslavia he was called to the State Department to give his opinion on the state of affairs in Yugoslavia--"And I gave quite a lecture there to those boys there in the State Department. They all sat down and listened to me." You know, that kind of talk.

So, then he was in Ghana and I heard he was a second time in Ghana and a second time in Yugoslavia--but I didn't hear it from him. I just heard that as a rumor.

And then when he was in Yugoslavia, he also made a trip to Sweden, after Yugoslavia, and from Sweden he went to Poland, to Warsaw. And, you know, in Warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends and relatives--so he said he stayed there for a week, and----

Mr. JENNER. When was this? When did this take place?

Mr. VOSHININ. In Poland, I think was 1958, because he was in 1957, 1958, he was in Yugoslavia and after Yugoslavia I think he went to Sweden and from Sweden he went to Warsaw to see relatives. He has cousins there. He said it was very difficult for him because to get even the permission of the American Government to go there and visit Poland, but he finally got it, and the Polish visa he finally got that. And he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. And he said that Warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. And, besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. Of course, one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to Panama City.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time of that, please?

Mr. VOSHININ. That was 1960, 1961.

Mr. JENNER. Was that at about the time of the Cuban invasion or the preparations for the Cuban invasion?

Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. No. Cuban invasion was much later. You mean our Cuban invasion?

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it was our Cuban invasion--but there was an invasion of Cuba.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I take that from the record.

Mr. JENNER. Was it about this time?

Mr. VOSHININ. No, that was before that time, I would say, because it was in 1960. We don't know when they left because we were not on speaking terms at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Had there come about a break in friendship with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; but that was about the time when they left on their trip.

Mr. JENNER. They were supposed to do what?

Mr. VOSHININ. To go by foot from Torreon on to Panama City. This is a city near the American border there and, as we were explained later by them, they went to Torreon. They have a lot of friends on the border, you know. There is particularly a very rich man there who is American married with a Mexican girl--a very rich man living near Eagle Pass.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his name?

Mr. VOSHININ. Tito Harper, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Harper? Tito Harper?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I think so. You can check it with my wife. I never met him but I met his wife. They're very nice people, very rich people, big businessman there on the border. They have, you know, business on both sides of the border, and they are big friends of George.

And, from there, he went to Torreon--I don't know why Torreon--and I understand that from there they started by foot to cross Old Mexico, Guatemala, San Salvador, and all the countries throughout by foot--having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the dog--I mean, the dog rode the mule--and that way they traveled, you know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year. In order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because it's dangerous. You know this already. They didn't go along the main highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the hills.

And they made a movie on their whole travel, which I saw. And, for example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the top--which was erupting. They made a movie of her standing from the lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) And he made the movie--it's real exciting--a colored movie and that red lava flowing--you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course, they enjoy doing things like that. I wouldn't climb it.

And, so, they finally came to Panama City. And then from Panama City they flew to Haiti where George had a very close friend--also a very rich man there of Russian background on Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention his name?

Mr. VOSHININ. He's dead now.

Mr. JENNER. He's dead? Did he mention his name?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes, he was--I'm bad on names. His first name was Michel--which is Michael, of course, and what the second name is, I don't know--Brightman. He was a very old man who was a local businessman on Haiti, and he died since.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. And as antireligious as they both were, they came to church and ordered a church service for Brightman. That was the only time she was in the church--because she's more antireligious than he is.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when you say "she," you mean Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt--yes. Because he's not religious, not believing in God, but he's not fighting it. But she----

Mr. JENNER. He's not antagonistic to religion but she is?

Mr. VOSHININ. She is. Yeah. But the only time she came--and she cried in the church.

Mr. JENNER. Now, which church is this? Here in Dallas or in Haiti?

Mr. VOSHININ. Here.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. VOSHININ. When they came back, you see, from there, Brightman died after--pretty soon, and they came to the church--which puzzled our pastor very much, Father Royster--and they asked for a church service.

Mr. JENNER. They asked to have a mass said for the deceased Mr. Brightman?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. So, after that, when he came already he said he would like to look for another assignment.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Was there anything said when they came back, or reports that when they were in Guatemala that they occupied a home there of some people, I think, from Arizona--Hilton or Tilton?

Mr. VOSHININ. No--not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Or a name of that character? And they stayed in Guatemala while the Cuban refugees were being trained?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; I didn't hear about that.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't? All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. You see, they didn't write us from their trip.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. What we heard from their trip, we heard actually from Mr. and Mrs. Ballen.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] B-a-l-l-e-n--Sam Ballen?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Sam Ballen is a friend of theirs?

Mr. VOSHININ. Sam Ballen was then a friend of theirs and Sam Ballen was a friend of the boss, Mr. Rogatz, my wife's boss. That's how we came to know Mr. Ballen, through Mr. Rogatz. Mr. Ballen was there almost every day in Rogatz' office.

Mr. JENNER. But Ballen was a particular friend of De Mohrenschildt; is that correct?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; I would say so. Ballen had some kind of admiration of George--which I can't share too well. I think George is a very interesting fellow, I enjoyed talking with him--taking, of course, 30 or 40 percent off of what he says. But still the rest of it was always interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels, always tells something interesting about the country. And George had a certain talent of observation.

You know, he is writing a book about his travels to Panama and he has it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. He read us a few pages from that book.

Mr. DAVIS. Is that George Bouhe?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; George De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe is an unusually dumb person. And then he finally got this Haiti assignment, of course.

Mr. JENNER. And he left Dallas for the Haiti assignment when?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, somewhere in the spring last year.

Mr. JENNER. 1963?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you anything?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, he showed us a newspaper again.

Mr. JENNER. What newspaper?

Mr. VOSHININ. From Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. And to what effect was the article in the paper?

Mr. VOSHININ. It was more than a page.

Mr. JENNER. More than a page?

Mr. VOSHININ. It may--it was more than a page and it was the official newspaper of the Government of Haiti--which was a contract between the Government of Haiti and George De Mohrenschildt Co., Inc.--not George De Mohrenschildt himself--to make a magnetic survey of Haiti for the sum of--I don't remember exactly--about $300,000; in which it said that Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals--oil and other minerals.

Mr. JENNER. In Haiti?

Mr. VOSHININ. For the country of Haiti--and I think the contract is for 2 years.

I also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody--Mrs. De Mohrenschildt--in which it was said that a contract was signed between our country and Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company and Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an American businessman who is just visiting now our country with his wonderful wife. And she liked that, of course. And it was few more words written about how wonderful she was--so she told--showed it to everybody. Well, that's only human--"They say I'm a wonderful woman!"

Mr. JENNER. These two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. While they were here in Dallas before they left for Haiti?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; they were in Haiti before they finally left there. It was on a short trip to sign the contract.

Mr. JENNER. They took at least one or more short trips to Haiti----

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Until they had these contracts signed?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then they left permanently for 2 years?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. And that was in the spring of 1963, that they left?

Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. In that interim period preceding their leaving is when you saw the newspaper account----

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Printed in the Haiti paper?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah--in French.

Mr. JENNER. In French?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. Which you and your wife, and others in this community we've been talking about, saw?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well--after they left, that's it.

Mr. JENNER. That's it. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. And since then, we have received, I think, a short card from them and the Christmas greeting--that was all.

Mr. JENNER. That's about all?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's about all.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, when they made the trip from the United States-Mexican border to Panama, was there anything said to you by them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their meeting Mikoyan when they were on that trip?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, this was before that trip.

Mr. JENNER. It was? Tell us about that, please.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, they made a trip before that trip by foot--they made a trip to Mexico City and back, just a short trip.

Mr. JENNER. That was by more conventional means of transportation?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; yes. That was either by car or by plane. I don't know. I think they mostly traveled by car.

I know that they went to New York and they came back from New York and then went to Mexico City and then came back to Dallas.

And we heard--I don't know from whom we heard--that they met Mikoyan. I imagine we heard that from the Ballens. I think--I imagine so. But then I asked her about that, because I didn't like it, you know.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't like the fact that they had met Mikoyan?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wouldn't meet Mikoyan--being a top Communist--Mr. Mikoyan is a top Communist and a butcher of the Stalin times. So, whatever he talks now, I wouldn't meet him anyhow.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you wouldn't have anything to do with Mikoyan?

Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; so, I asked her what is the whole story about? And she told me that it was just meant as a joke--namely that at that time there was a Soviet exhibition of some kind----

Mr. JENNER. In Mexico City.

Mr. VOSHININ. In Mexico City. And that's why Mikoyan was present there. And one day--and she said Mikoyan was always guarded by Mexican security and Soviet security--and it was one moment he was televised--you know, when he was televised--she just jumped out of the crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "Hello, hello, Mr. Mikoyan. What are you doing?"

And she said, "He was terribly embarrassed and afraid perhaps I'll kill him."

But, so, he said, "Who are you?"

And she said, "I'm a Russian living in America."

And he asked, "What you want?"

And she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave--and she left.

So, she says that's all that it was--she said.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. Because, you know, I wanted to make sure of what the thing is about.

Mr. JENNER. You wanted to know?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I wanted to know from her--because if she would go, you know, make some deals with Mikoyan, then I wouldn't like to talk with her at all.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. But a joke--well De Mohrenschildt and his wife--they are peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does.

Mr. JENNER. Were they unconventional people?

Mr. VOSHININ. They are the most unconventional people I ever have seen.

Mr. JENNER. Are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and things they do?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us a little about the unconventionality of dress.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, for example, she always goes around in trousers, a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know, trying to imitate, you know, 15-year teenager girls, you know. And he goes out very often without a tie or open breast--completely open breast. And he may drop in somebody's party in this state--and without shoes, you know. He may do things like that. Another time, you may see him perfectly dressed.

Mr. JENNER. He's unpredictable?

Mr. VOSHININ. He is absolutely unpredictable--and I think even he knows he's unpredictable, because I understand he even had a psychiatrist to whom he went. My wife told me about that.

Mr. JENNER. From all this, do you have an impression of the De Mohrenschildts--either one of them--as to their possible connection with any Communist or agencies, Party, or what not? Or do you think they are just extraordinarily unconventional? In other words, do you think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality?

Mr. VOSHININ. It may be; it may not be. I'm not--you know, now all of us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the other. This is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times.

Mr. JENNER. You're rationalizing at the moment?

Mr. VOSHININ. We are rationalizing--all of us--at that moment. Of course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other.

I can tell you what she told us.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. She told us that her first husband was a former Communist.

Mr. JENNER. Her first husband was the----

Mr. VOSHININ. Bogoiavlensky.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Who is now in a mental institution in California?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And that he was a Communist?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; in his young days.

Mr. JENNER. Well, when you say "Communist"--an active member of the Communist Party?

Mr. VOSHININ. I think of the Communist Youth Organization. Because it was not in Soviet Russia; it was in China.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. But of some kind--I don't know what the official name of the organization may be--but it was some kind of Communist Youth Organization.

So she said when she married him that the situation what it was and they did not want to stay in China and they debated the question of whether to go to Soviet Russia or to go to United States. And she said that it's her influence was to break up--that he break up all his ties with the Communists. And come to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. That was her desire?

Mr. VOSHININ. She said that was her desire. And she said that's what her first husband did--that they broke off with the Communists and come over to the United States. And she said, "Since then, neither my husband or me have anything to do with the Communist Party."

That's her story.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. On the other hand, she was always praising the Chinese Communist regime--because she was saying that they do a lot of good developing her beloved native country.

Mr. JENNER. China?

Mr. VOSHININ. China.

When she said--mentioned that in my presence, I said, "This is pure Communist propaganda. You should know better than tell that."

On this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "You should not tell me that I spread Communist propaganda--because they shot my father."

That's what she said.

But that argument of whether the Communists do anything positive for China or not was, you know, coming back and back.

Mr. JENNER. Repeated?

Mr. VOSHININ. Repeatedly when we met. And sometimes, especially my wife and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them, you know, for several months. But somehow you meet these people again somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again.

Mr. JENNER. There was a violent difference of opinion between your wife and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on this subject?

Mr. VOSHININ. On this subject.

But where the Russian Communists are concerned, she always said that they are too nationalistic for her. She doesn't like--she didn't like that.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt didn't like that.

She said, "I don't like anything about Russia." She didn't like Russian music, she wouldn't stand a record in Russian language, or even anybody, you know, whistling a Russian tune. She would get so angry I don't know what.

And she would say, "I am against nationalism of any kind. I am for the world government." She was very much for the world government, you know, and things like that--international institutions and--uh; but, on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the wall, you say, "Well, stop that. That's kind of communistic talk,"--she would immediately bring into the thing that "They killed my poor father. I just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad, what's good." And she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries," and so on, and "what do you think?" "I would praise the killers of my father?" And so on. "I just want to be objective."

Well, you know, I don't like to argue with, you know, too much with women; so I just stay away from that argument. But my wife will probably tell you.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did you become acquainted at any time----

Mr. VOSHININ. May I say something in addition?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. Because that's what I said about her.

What his concern--I never heard about him praising Chinese or Russian Communists but he was praising the Yugoslav Communists. He was there and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful things they are doing. You know, I lived in Yugoslavia myself and I tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before and there was nothing just to save it from.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. But, of course, he didn't see it and he was very enthusiastic and--about mountains and so on. I tried to persuade him they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before--and that Communists did not build them--but he would somehow always, was always enthusiastic about that.

Mr. JENNER. About Yugoslavia?

Mr. VOSHININ. About Yugoslavia and the Yugoslavia regime.

Mr. JENNER. And its regime as well?

Mr. VOSHININ. Its regime as well. That's true.

About China, he said he doesn't know anything; he'll let his wife talk.

So, anyhow, these people are, of course, leftist people.

Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts are leftists?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she much more than him. Because he was, on the other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a Democrat.

Mr. JENNER. He had never voted for a Democrat?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. He was always an Eisenhower man, a Republican--and they argued between themselves the whole time.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes. And the way they argued on politics among themselves--because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective.

Mr. JENNER. Induce her to be a little more objective?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. But she was always bitterly to the left.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet either Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mr. VOSHININ. No, sir; thank God!

Mr. JENNER. Did a time come when you heard about Lee or Marina Oswald?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us the circumstances.

Mr. VOSHININ. I read in the newspaper, Dallas Herald, about them.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, when they came to this country. There was a short article about an American defector to the Communists, that he finally came back with a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. That was in June of 1962--just to orient you. You saw that item in the newspaper?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a subject of discussion in the community among the people you've told us about?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; not in the beginning. Except that we heard--we visited Mr. and Mrs. Clark.

Mr. JENNER. Is that Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?

Mr. VOSHININ. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. An attorney in Fort Worth?

Mr. VOSHININ. In Fort Worth. And she is of Russian descent, as you know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from Soviet Russia and they didn't like them. And they said he was very unpleasant and bitter fellow--and they wouldn't like to see him again--something like that. So, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to meet them either, you know--and especially, you know, you don't like any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish" people, you know. That's a Dallas expression. That's polite for bum--as he was described to us. He--Oswald.

So, later, we heard that Mr. Bouhe, of course, in lack of other prospects for help, started helping the Oswald family. But as far as our relations with Bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we really need something, you know, an address or some information of that kind. So, Bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. He knows that--better than bringing to us anybody.

But, as I understand, the De Mohrenschildts met with the Oswalds and the De Mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and young people here, Mr. and Mrs. Oswald, and they need help and she has a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on--they don't have a penny and nobody gives them a job, and things like that. And "would you like to meet them?"

Well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from Clarks, who these people are, I say, "No, George; I don't like to meet him." And my wife said, "Oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind of people."

So, I said that very insistently--so the De Mohrenschildts knew better than acquaint us. So, never we met them. Of course, it could have happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. There was always a possibility of that kind. But, thank God----

Mr. JENNER. But it never happened?

Mr. VOSHININ. It never happened. So, we always were hearing about them from De Mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually.

Mr. JENNER. You had the impression, did you not--or did you--that the De Mohrenschildts saw the Oswalds frequently and were attempting to assist them?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he was--only one time he was very bitter about Oswald when he beat up his wife.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, once we saw De Mohrenschildt and his wife and he said, "Well, he doesn't behave like he should. What does he think he is, beating his wife?" But Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said, "Well, don't just judge people without knowing what's behind them." She said, "You always, George, you jump to conclusions. We don't know what happened."

I understand that she liked Lee much more than he did.

Mr. JENNER. That Mrs. De Mohrenschildt liked Lee much more than George did?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

This fellow De Mohrenschildt, was he a type of person to provoke arguments?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; he liked that. Yes; sure.

Mr. JENNER. Describe him physically. Is he a handsome man? A big man? Athletic?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis player--always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know; and he would go to the ice arena there in the Fair Park, you know. And he devoted always a lot of time to sports----

Mr. JENNER. And was Mrs. De Mohrenschildt----

Mr. VOSHININ. And she tried to do it, too.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. What else can I tell you?

Well, I know that he--the way he talks, you know, he talks for and against anything. You know, probably, about his famous lecture in the Bohemian Club?

Mr. JENNER. I'll get that in a minute. Did you say that he was argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any argument?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever anybody would say.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and was he provocative in his argumentation?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; and I think he enjoyed it.

Mr. JENNER. He was extreme in his argumentation?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was some kind of a thing which was talked very much in Dallas about when he made a lecture in the Bohemian Club.

The Bohemian Club is a group of about 30 people--Dallasites--who like to argue. And he was the soul of the whole thing. And you know probably who is in there. It's Sam Ballen, and L-e-v A-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling], Bill Hudson--I don't know, a lot of other people I have never met.

Mr. JENNER. Were you a member of the Bohemian Club?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; I was not. But I was invited by George to go to the Bohemian Club. He will give a historical lecture.

Mr. JENNER. You were present on that occasion?

Mr. VOSHININ. I was present on that occasion.

And George discussed the question, you know, about the Vlassov army. That was an army composed of Russian--Soviet Russian prisoners of war who wanted to fight the Communists.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of this army?

Mr. VOSHININ. Vlassov [spelling] V-l-a-s-s-o-v.

And he told the story of the Vlassov army but, in between, he injected a lot of praise for such people like Himmler.

Mr. JENNER. Heinrich Himmler?

Mr. VOSHININ. Heinrich Himmler. He said, "After all, I came to the conclusion that Himmler wasn't a bad boy at all."

You know, that's typically George.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he was just attempting to provoke shock?

Mr. VOSHININ. I think he was attempting to provoke shock. Especially there were, at least, three Jewish people there present--Sam Ballen and Lev Aronson. I saw that Lev Aronson almost didn't--was, became red, terribly red in his face. I was afraid that the poor guy, you know, would have a stroke, You know. And George was looking into the face of Aronson and, you know, continued praising the Nazis and look what effect it has on Lev, who is a close friend of George. Of course, Lev was terribly bitter--and I understand, after that, Lev and him went to drink vodka the whole night. So, well--that's the type of person you have.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Voshinin, I think my questioning is about concluded, but I do want to ask this general question in any event. Is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. VOSHININ. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state it, please?

Mr. VOSHININ. I think, first of all, there are persons which you did not question and which knows De Mohrenschildt, I think, much better than I do.

Mr. JENNER. Who is that?

Mr. VOSHININ. For example, Mr. Basil Zavoico.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now give us that full name and spell it, please?

Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] B-a-s-i-l--that's the first name. Second is Z-a-v-o-i-c-o--or k-o--I don't know. And he lived in Texas before and he's living now in Green Farms, Conn., his house being called Cronomere.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please?

Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. And why I know Mr. Zavoico because his wife lived in Yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife we were close friends with her. And I think that Mr. Zavoico knows George De Mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even warned us against him.

Mr. JENNER. Warned you against De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; he said, "Don't be too close with De Mohrenschildt," he said, "because, who knows what he is?" He says, "He sometimes talks so much to the left, I'm not sure what he is."

And I think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we came here. I think in that time there will be a lot of things to your interest.

I don't know whether you questioned another person--it's Mr. Paul Raigorodsky.

Mr. JENNER. You've mentioned him before--at the first of this deposition?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; because Paul Raigorodsky is the first Russian immigrant that--whoever came to Dallas. And he knows absolutely everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. And he knows George pretty closely. He also lived in the Stoneleigh Hotel--and still living there.

Mr. JENNER. He is?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And he saw George every day where we saw him only occasionally. A third person which I would suggest would be Mrs. Graff.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] G-r-a-f-f?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Mrs. Theodore Graff--who worked for George as a secretary mostly in the time that George was in Yugoslavia. He still was, one part of the time, maintaining his office in the Republic Bank, and Mrs. Graff worked there. And I think that Mrs. Graff knows a lot about De Mohrenschildt's business. You see, my wife only worked there 2 or 3 weeks so she doesn't know much. But I understand that Mrs. Graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them and having no other things to do. Especially, I think that George had written his autobiography and she has seen it. I understand she has seen it. It is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to sell.

Then, I think you should also question a Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie who know him. Mrs. Leslie and her stepdaughter, Miss Leslie.

Mr. JENNER. Are they residents of Dallas?

Mr. VOSHININ. They are residents of Dallas. Yeah. Mrs. Graff is now living in Birmingham--you know, near Detroit.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; I know. It's a suburb of Detroit. My daughter attended school in Birmingham.

Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Graff is from Connecticut otherwise, but she was here with her husband. He was working here in Republic Bank--and that's where George's office was. She was at one time, you know, his secretary--part-time, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Where do Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie live?

Mr. VOSHININ. Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie on Hanover.

Mr. JENNER. Hanover Street?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; Hanover Street.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes; they are Russian.

Mr. JENNER. They are?

Mr. VOSHININ. But Miss Leslie's father was of British descent--but his wife was Russian. And I think these people, they don't know much about the De Mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know, and all that.

Mr. JENNER. They may know something about the Oswalds, too?

Mr. VOSHININ. I don't know. I don't know one way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. But they moved in this circle that you've described?

Mr. VOSHININ. They moved in that circle. Now, there is one thing which always strikes me peculiar--I just talked last night with my wife about that. The last 2 years, you know, the De Mohrenschildts were going to Houston about every 4 weeks, and De Mohrenschildt was always saying, "I have to go to Houston on business." And he would say--of course, you don't ask people, you know. George didn't like to talk about what his business is you know. Never told anybody about the details and nobody, of course, asked him.

And he would say, "You know, I have to go--you know, all my business goes through Houston." On the other hand, he would say he was, you know, getting his jobs through a 5 percenter in Washington--and here he was always going to Houston, like reporting to somebody; every 4 or 5 weeks, he was always going to Houston. And as far as me and my wife heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business there whatsoever. But as far as he was always interested only in foreign assignments, why should he go to Houston? In other words, even before, you know, the late President was killed, you know, we were once talking this with my wife and wondering--what in the hell is he doing in Houston?

You don't get foreign assignments through Houston--not that we know about, but always he was going to Houston. And, I don't know, he never mentioned to who he goes to Houston. But, it may be possible that I can give you a name of a Russian professor in Houston who may know--may not know but may know--who knows something because Professor Jitkoff----

Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please.

Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f.

Mr. JENNER. And at what institution is he a professor?

Mr. VOSHININ. Rice Institute. The head of the department of the Rice Institute.

Mr. JENNER. What department?

Mr. VOSHININ. The Russian Department. He can't stand George De Mohrenschildt. And I know about De Mohrenschildt being in Houston--I know, that, too, from Professor Jitkoff, which is a very, very respectable family man, a very respectable anti-Communist. As anti-Communist as could be, you know. And they told us several times that George and Jeanne dropped in--which is not her name. Her name is Eugenia. But, you know she's French. That's her baptized name, you see.

But they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in Houston. There is a vague possibility of that--because that always sounded peculiar to us, that Houston trips. Well, I think these people they live on Locke Lane [spelling] L-o-c-k-e--in Houston.

Mr. JENNER. Well, we can reach him if he is a professor at Rice Institute.

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. And they knew the De Mohrenschildts, of course, before we ever came here.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else occur to you?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I also heard from her that she wanted to sell her fashions to the Soviets. And that they went to New York to the Soviet consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to them--but, as I understand, they say they turned them down, they are not interested. And that was just before their trip to Mexico City. So, there is a slight possibility--but this is just speculation on my part--that they probably tried the Soviet consulate in Mexico City also to sell them some fashions--though I don't know, but this is possible, you know. You know, most of the Russian immigrants, like us, you know, wouldn't deal with the Soviets at all.

Mr. JENNER. You just don't want any part of them at all?

Mr. VOSHININ. We don't want any part of it. Our only dealings, you know, is going there to buy dictionaries--you know, and things like that. And that we would prefer not to do in the Soviet store in New York, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you know. But the De Mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Of going directly?

Mr. VOSHININ. Of going directly to deal with all of them, you know.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you about the Houston trips. Did the Houston trips take place during the years 1962 and 1963, up to the time----

Mr. VOSHININ. Up to their departure. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time the De Mohrenschildts left for Haiti?

Mr. VOSHININ. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm, of course, or try to, that these periodic 4- to 5-week trips--a trip every 4 or 5 weeks to Houston, took place in 1962 and 1963, to the time they left, and even might have been prior to 1962?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, yeah, they may; I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. When did you and your wife become quite conscious of the fact that the De Mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to Houston?

Mr. VOSHININ. After Professor Jitkoff started complaining that the De Mohrenschildts became a nuisance.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And that was when?

Mr. VOSHININ. And then we started recollecting about the De Mohrenschildts telling, "Oh, we have to go on business to Houston." So, that probably was late 1962.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. VOSHININ. You see, we go to Houston usually two times a year to visit the Jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not these trips to Houston were being made in September of 1963?

Mr. VOSHININ. In September of 1963, they were not here.

Mr. JENNER. So, they weren't here then?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; they left--I don't know which month they left for Haiti--but I think they left way before September.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you know whether either of the De Mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left Dallas in the spring of 1963?

Mr. VOSHININ. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know whether they have or haven't been?

Mr. VOSHININ. I have no knowledge, no; no information about it. And I have seen, you know, Christina and her husband. You know who they are--Kirken.

Mr. JENNER. Spell it, please.

Mr. VOSHININ. Or whatever he calls himself--that's Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. He calls himself Kirken. K-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; Americans call him _Kirten_ [phonetic].

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] K-a-r-t-o-n?

Mr. VOSHININ. [Spelling] K-i-r-k-e-n--or o-n--I don't know. They dropped in when they came from Haiti.

Mr. JENNER. They were here recently?

Mr. VOSHININ. They were here recently. They dropped by our house and they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they left--they couldn't stand that.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of them say anything about whether or not George De Mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. VOSHININ. Oh, I heard that story; yes.

Mr. JENNER. From whom did you hear it? And give us your recollection of it.

Mr. VOSHININ. I think that--uh--well, I heard it from my wife, to tell the truth.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll talk to her about that.

Mr. VOSHININ. And she heard it, I don't know, from the Ballens, maybe--or maybe from the children.

I don't know. I think that Kirken said that George is behaving ridiculously and he said, "My father-in-law is behaving ridiculously--he talks nonsense." And he says, "We just decided to shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very unpleasant scenes."

Mr. JENNER. He was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements by George De Mohrenschildt were nonsense?

Mr. VOSHININ. Sure. George talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually about anything; but sometimes, you know, as Kirken says, he says he became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand it. And Kirken and his wife are, I think, good Americans.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. They are okay.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or pertinent?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, not that I know at the present time, but----

Mr. JENNER. If you think of anything, we're going to be back next week and the week afterwards----

Mr. VOSHININ. Could you give me a telephone or anything?

Mr. JENNER. Well, you just call the U.S. attorney's office here and somebody representing the Commission will be here. Either I will or some other person. So all you have to do is ask for the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders--Barefoot Sanders----

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah; I know.

Mr. JENNER. And he will know, and he will put you in touch with one of us.

Mr. VOSHININ. Okay. Probably my wife will recollect a lot of things.

Mr. JENNER. Now we've had some discussions off the record, is there anything we discussed off the record that I have failed to bring out that you think ought to be on the record?

Mr. VOSHININ. Of what, for example?

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything we discussed that I failed then to ask you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is making?

Mr. VOSHININ. Not that I know, unless you recall something.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything which was stated by you----

Mr. VOSHININ. You know De Mohrenschildt has here a brother?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. His brother--he's a professor, according to your information where?

Mr. VOSHININ. Dartmouth.

Mr. JENNER. At Dartmouth College?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yeah. I think he's perfectly okay--a very serious person.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, you know his three wives--his former wives?

Mr. JENNER. I've asked you about that.

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, his first wife, I think lives in Paris.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. VOSHININ. And his second wife, I think, was a dancer or an artist of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth wife.

Mr. JENNER. And his fourth wife is his present wife, is that correct?

Mr. VOSHININ. Yes. I think he has a litigation going the whole time about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. And I think the judge forebade him to see her. That's the rumor I heard.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else?

Mr. VOSHININ. Well, I don't know. You ask--perhaps you have----

Mr. JENNER. I have exhausted myself at the moment. These suggestions you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do, I'll let you know.

Mr. VOSHININ. Will you write my telephone number perhaps? Or, I'm just across the street you can call me any time.

Mr. JENNER. What we usually do is to have the Secret Service call you.

Mr. VOSHININ. They're in the same building--two floors higher than me. They can just call me up two stories up.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We'll close this deposition now.

You have the right, Mr. Voshinin, to read your testimony when it's typed up, if you wish to do so. Perhaps there might be, when you read it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to modify in some fashion or other. It takes time to write these up. This young lady has been busy every minute. We would hope to have this perhaps written up during the course of the next week.

If you will call in--and also talk to Mr. Sanders--he will know when, and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for examination.

Mr. VOSHININ. Can I take it home and read it or do I have to come here?

Mr. JENNER. No. You may take it home only in this sense. You have the right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy.

Mr. VOSHININ. I think I would like a copy and put it with my pictures and for my records to have at home.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You make arrangements with this young lady.

Mr. VOSHININ. My wife will make an arrangement on that. Okay--and if there is any way I can help, please--I'd just tell everything I know without any hesitation.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I tried to pick your brain for everything I could think of.

Mr. DAVIS. We do appreciate it--and thank you, sir.

Transcriber's Notes:

Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.

Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.

Some simple typographical errors were corrected.

Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.

Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.

Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.

Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.

Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.

Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.

Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.

The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.

Text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source.

Page 48: "Mrs. Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in" did not show "Evans" in small caps to indicate she was the speaker; corrected here.

Page 156: "When did teach there?" probably is missing "you".

Page 214: "Executive Order No. 1130" should be "11130".

Page 223: "He likes _the_ give" was printed that way, with "the" in italics.

Page 231: "Approximately hold old" should be "how".

Page 308: "Section 11, page 8" may be misprint for "Section II, page 8"

Page 330: "Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner" was misprinted as "Mrs. BATES. I am Albert E. Jenner" with "BATES" in small-caps, followed by a period, indicating that Mrs. Bates was the speaker. Changed here.

Page 333: "some of em he wouldn't" appears to be missing an apostrophe before "em", as "em" was slightly indented relative to the left margin.

Page 363: "special train from" probably should be "training".

Page 369: "It took 2 years of something" was printed that way.

Page 390: "As far as you can remember" was misprinted as "fas".

Page 427: "in Varna Pleven" is missing a comma after "Varna".

Page 458: "French woman, And he met her" was printed that way.