did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he

would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was true. And he definitely did not want any children.

So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to him or----

Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to have any children?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or afterwards?

Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?

Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father?

Miss MURRET. I saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like?

Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later, and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you have when you met him again?

Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person?

Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know, but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, before she went to Texas?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her?

Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?

Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately. But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how they--I mean they will slit one another's throats.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks?

Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.

Mr. LIEBELER. But other than that you have no----

Miss MURRET. Other than that she was nice in her own way, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was a time in the spring of 1963 when Lee Oswald came to New Orleans, isn't that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you know about that?

Miss MURRET. When he came in the last time, you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. That was the next time that you saw Lee Oswald after he and his mother left the Exchange Alley address and went to Texas, isn't that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened in connection with his coming to New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. He telephoned my mother, I think from the bus station. Of course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that he was married, and that he had a baby.

So, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. But he was by himself, so she said O.K. He stayed there a while until he found a place on Magazine Street. And then the wife and this lady from Texas came down, and they moved into the place on Magazine Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you live with your mother?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you at home during the time that Oswald lived there during that period?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long was he there?

Miss MURRET. I am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with him during that time?

Miss MURRET. During the day he was usually looking for a job, and I was working. And in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing in particular. I was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to work about 8:30 or 9 o'clock, and the only discussions that I really had was on religion.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that during this week?

Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that at the time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that, and what did you say?

Miss MURRET. He just listened.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say?

Miss MURRET. And then he just said or I assumed that he was an atheist because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. Anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary?

Miss MURRET. Actually, he was more concerned about that, I guess, and so I just said this, this religious discussion. I just set this off because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. But he didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a Catholic, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. A practicing Catholic?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you expressed that to Oswald?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then he indicated that he had his own way?

Miss MURRET. Which he didn't express.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he did tell you that he was an atheist?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into any further details than that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get any feeling about him when you had this discussion with him? I mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject like that, and then not really respond to it?

Miss MURRET. That was typical of Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Typical of Lee?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with you over your----

Miss MURRET. No. Oh, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other discussions or confrontations that you might have had?

Miss MURRET. That was the only time that I had had any chance to talk with him, and that was the first day that he came--I believe it was. After that, on Saturdays, or that particular Saturday he was out all day looking around for a job. And then on that Sunday he wanted to know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his relatives, because he had said that when Marina's family had asked him about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you about this or----

Miss MURRET. My mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you were there at the time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did your mother tell him?

Miss MURRET. My mother checked the telephone directory, and I think most of the Oswalds were dead. Harvey Oswald, who was his godfather, I believe, is dead. He did find one relative and he went to see her.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was her name?

Miss MURRET. I don't know, but that might have been his wife. My mother would know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whose wife? Harvey Oswald's?

Miss MURRET. They were very old. That was his father's brother, but they are all dead. But it might be one of the wives who is still living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of his father. And then he went to visit the grave.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of his father?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about that at all?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to the picture? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. I think he might have told my mother about it, and I think he might have told me, but I was there that Sunday and he caught the bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture of his father. And he just showed it, and that was all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a large picture or----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did he take it with him when he left, when he moved over to the apartment on Magazine Street?

Miss MURRET. Yes. I guess so----

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't seen it around the house since?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned something about when he caught the bus and went to the other aunt?

Miss MURRET. You say to the aunt?

Mr. LIEBELER. To this aunt who gave him the picture?

Miss MURRET. Well, I mean he left and I know he caught the bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job?

Miss MURRET. He wanted to find a job so Marina could come down here. I know he was looking--I mean he seemed like he really wanted to find one. And when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you----

Miss MURRET. I mean the one at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he came to New Orleans to look for a job?

Miss MURRET. He had said that Marina wanted to be near the sea, and she thought she would like New Orleans. He didn't tell me that; he told my mother.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew at this time that he had been to the Soviet Union, did you not?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his experiences in Russia?

Miss MURRET. I asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few photographs, my mother and I, of where he lived. And that is when he said about the family, that people were very family conscious----

Mr. LIEBELER. In Russia?

Miss MURRET. Yes; I don't know--I think he was citing one experience where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but what they had they shared with him. That is when he said that he was very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he went to Russia in the first place?

Miss MURRET. No; I was away when he left, and I didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and I saw his brother, John. And my sister had written me a letter just before that and said that Marguerite had not heard from Lee, and that she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. I didn't know where he had gone, and I guess they just assumed that I knew. My mother didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing in all the papers, and everything. I went to visit John, and his wife told me at that time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was John living at that time?

Miss MURRET. In Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were in Japan at that time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing in Japan?

Miss MURRET. I taught school over there.

Mr. LIEBELER. In an English speaking school?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did John tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?

Miss MURRET. He didn't tell me--his wife told me. So I didn't bring the subject up at all with John. I mean we weren't invading anybody's privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. And I know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed.

Mr. LIEBELER. John was?

Miss MURRET. Of course, and they had three children, and I mean it was in Stars and Stripes.

Mr. LIEBELER. John was in the Air Force at that time?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't bring the subject up of Lee at all as to why he went?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate anything about his experiences in Russia other than what you have already told us?

Miss MURRET. The only thing he said was--I just didn't know any of this would happen, and I didn't know he would be leaving and I thought that he would say what he wanted to say, because I don't believe in bombarding somebody with questions, I really don't, and what they want to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. So, anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person because he was an American, and they wanted to create a good impression on him. Other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, that is all he said. And he said that he had met Marina at this dance, and he worked in the factory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of factory?

Miss MURRET. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he did?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much he was paid?

Miss MURRET. No; maybe he did, but I wouldn't know what it was, anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any travels that he had in the Soviet Union?

Miss MURRET. Well, just that he said, and I don't know where he was going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend the night there and that they had less than he had. So if that was on the outskirts, or where it was, I don't really know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Russian?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak any foreign language?

Miss MURRET. I studied French and Spanish, but was hopeless.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about any school that he might have gone to when he was in Russia, any training that he might have gotten?

Miss MURRET. No sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of training. When he first came out, I couldn't understand how he had gotten out, in the first place.

Mr. LIEBELER. How he had gotten out of Russia to come back, you mean?

Miss MURRET. With a Russian wife, and he did say her father was--was he a Russian officer? Anyway----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say her father----

Miss MURRET. He was, or she might have said that in her broken English, so I couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of Russia, and how he had access to Russia, I mean to work there, et cetera, and then just to be allowed to leave, with a Russian wife, and her father being in the Army. And I think that she had an uncle--I don't know--but I think it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the Intelligence Service in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Her uncle?

Miss MURRET. Yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get out. So, that I couldn't figure out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him about it? Did you ask Lee about that?

Miss MURRET. Yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. That is about the only thing I did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, I wasn't satisfied, but by that time I couldn't understand how they got out. But, I said, well, if they let them out, they went through the Embassy obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, they would be trailing him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought this?

Miss MURRET. Well, any time anybody comes out of Russia, you think it, naturally.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't say anything to Lee about it?

Miss MURRET. No; definitely not. I had just asked him if it was difficult to get out, and so then I said, well, if he were up to anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could just forget about that because he might really have realized that he made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. I mean, you don't try to antagonize him--I mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back here, you would do everything you could to help him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate that he had been given trouble about getting out of Russia by the Russians or by the Americans? Or did he distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by the two authorities?

Miss MURRET. I don't think he really said, but I don't remember that he--I think, or I thought he meant the Russians, because the Americans gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him anytime.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the fact that the Americans had given him the money? Did he tell you that?

Miss MURRET. He told my mother that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any more about it than just that he had received money from the United States? Did he tell you any more details, or did your mother repeat them to you?

Miss MURRET. Well, and then I read something about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Life, that he had renounced his citizenship, but that the American Embassy said that he didn't, and that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know about this at all, or have any conversation with Lee about it before the assassination?

Miss MURRET. About what?

Mr. LIEBELER. About this time that he renounced his citizenship and these difficulties?

Miss MURRET. Well, they had articles in the papers that my mother showed me after I came home, Fort Worth papers, that he threw the passport on the desk. But I didn't ask him about that at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't tell you anything about it?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to obtain money from the State Department or whomever he obtained it from to return to the United States?

Miss MURRET. Extraordinary in the fact that I didn't know how he could get out with a Russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, and an uncle--I don't know what he was at the time--but I thought he was affiliated with the military, but I have read something since then that the father was with the intelligence service. But then I didn't really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the Embassy. So you figure that it was one of two things, he either really realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a purpose. And if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Miss MURRET. At first; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----

Miss MURRET. The first reaction.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when you first----

Miss MURRET. Well, the fact that he got out.

Mr. LIEBELER. But when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, after the assassination? You mean at first, after you saw him?

Miss MURRET. After he came out.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't really think about that too much until he came here in 1963, or had you considered it prior to that time?

Miss MURRET. We didn't know he was out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until he came here?

Miss MURRET. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was back from Russia at all?

Miss MURRET. He just telephoned mother and my mother said, "I didn't even know you were back." And he said, "I have been back for--I don't know--probably a year."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody else in your family about the possibility that Oswald might be a Russian agent?

Miss MURRET. As I said, I dispelled that immediately because I thought, well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. So, I mean you can't go around with suspicion like that, or, I mean certainly the American Embassy should know what is going on. So, if that were the case, well, they would be on his trail. And, if not, well, he was definitely sincere. I mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. So you considered the question briefly and dismissed it for the reasons you state?

Miss MURRET. Yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get out?

Mr. LIEBELER. And, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with which he was able to leave the Soviet Union with a Russian wife?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it cause you any concern to associate with him or have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question that he might have been a Russian agent? I mean, you said that you dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that they might associate you with Oswald, or identify you in any way?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. It did not?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the first week that Lee was at your home, he rented an apartment and moved out? Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when he left your house?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you he found an apartment?

Miss MURRET. He told me about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he or did he not tell you personally?

Miss MURRET. I don't remember whether I was there or not. Yes; I think I might have been. Yes; I was, because I think he came home and said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether Marina would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high ceilings. But he liked it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina come out to your house at this time?

Miss MURRET. Well, when they came in, the lady from Texas brought her----

Mr. LIEBELER. In a station wagon?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know her name?

Miss MURRET. I know now; yes. It was Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know her at that time?

Miss MURRET. No; he introduced me, I think, or she introduced herself--I don't remember--because I was getting ready to go out and that was when I was in and out, getting dressed. But he also had referred to her just as Marina's friend in Texas, and I told her it was very nice to meet her.

Mr. LIEBELER. They actually came there to your house before Lee moved out, or after he moved out?

Miss MURRET. He had moved out, I think, he himself, and then he came to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Marina and Mrs. Paine came to your house and they went from there, went to the apartment on Magazine then?

Miss MURRET. They stayed there a very short while and Marina was petrified----

Mr. LIEBELER. What was she petrified about?

Miss MURRET. Well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people there, I guess, and probably tired. I think Marina was nervous or probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled child. So they left very shortly after, and I don't think Marina ever came in the back. Mrs. Paine came in the back to get a root beer, and I can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or I was in the front when they introduced them, or not. I met Marina when she came into the living room. I don't remember whether he introduced me to Mrs. Paine formally, or whether she introduced herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there at that time?

Miss MURRET. Yes; he had moved out----

Mr. LIEBELER. But he had come out, that is, come back to your house to meet Marina and Mrs. Paine?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina?

Miss MURRET. She doesn't speak English. On that day we hardly said anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was indicated to you that she could not speak English; is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever try to talk to Marina in English?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did it go?

Miss MURRET. It was exasperating.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she understand any English?

Miss MURRET. I think she understood more than she could speak, but still there is a lot she doesn't understand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient in the English language?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to communicate anything in any way with her at all in English?

Miss MURRET. Just petty things, you know, like if she would eat something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and small words to say a few things. She also commented, you know, when they would eat over there a few times--on the food, but other than that, she----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Mrs. Paine?

Miss MURRET. Mrs. Paine? I don't know--my mother had said that Lee had been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a professor out at Tulane, a professor of languages.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name? Is it Riseman?

Miss MURRET. That was when he was living on Magazine, and I think they telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for an application, or different things, and I think he said he was going that night, that they were suppose to show slides. Now, this man had one daughter, I think, who was in Russia, and he was a friend of Mrs. Paine's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would the name Kloepfer sound like the----

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Riseman?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't know the language professor's name.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think your mother would remember?

Miss MURRET. I don't think so, because I think it was the other Secret Service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this professor, he was a professor of what?

Miss MURRET. Languages.

Mr. LIEBELER. What language? Russian?

Miss MURRET. I don't know if it was only Russian, or what, or some other language. He just teaches, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any idea where he lived?

Miss MURRET. Who? The professor? No. So then it was just that he had a daughter in Russia, and I was just wondering why she got to know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Miss MURRET. I often wonder how it was that she spoke Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who? Mrs. Paine?

Miss MURRET. Yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in Time magazine, or something, that she was a Quaker, so I discarded all those ideas also, claiming where she was, I guess, just purely interested in the language, and you would see people who spoke that language.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine? Were you suspicious of Mrs. Paine in any way?

Miss MURRET. At first, because she sought all of the Russian speaking people, and she spoke Russian herself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you indicate that the Secret Service had discussed this with you about the professor?

Miss MURRET. No; my mother told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother told this to the Secret Service man?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when she talked to the Secret Service man?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else about this professor that we could use to find out who he was, or who he is?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't. But it probably would be easy enough to find, if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and I don't think that that would be too difficult to find.

Mr. LIEBELER. After he and Marina had moved into the apartment on Magazine Street, did you ever go to the apartment?

Miss MURRET. I just drove him over there once or--I think we drove him home once or twice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you ever inside of the apartment?

Miss MURRET. Once I went in the back part.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of place was it?

Miss MURRET. Well, they had a back part of the house, and I never did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was arranged to make an apartment. But he had called one Sunday afternoon and said that Marina wanted to come over there. So I think we picked them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, they took the bus, and we always took them home.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you see the Oswalds after that?

Miss MURRET. On Magazine?

Mr. LIEBELER. That you recall? Yes?

Miss MURRET. I think they came over one day, one Saturday, and then a half a day on Sunday, or this might have been the same day--I don't know--and Labor Day, because I was not here from the beginning of July until September.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that the last time you saw Oswald was on Labor Day, 1963, which would have been early in September?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the time that you went crabbing with him?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the occasion that you met him on Labor Day? What did you do?

Miss MURRET. They called up, or Lee called up and said that Marina wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. But my mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, so she told him to come in the afternoon. And this they did, about 3 or 4 they came over in the bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come over on the bus?

Miss MURRET. Yes; and then we took them back.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go crabbing with him? You did, did you not?

Miss MURRET. I think it was on a Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. So this would have been before July, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you have indicated that you were not in New Orleans during July or August of 1963?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who also went on this crabbing expedition?

Miss MURRET. Just Marina and I and he. I think the baby stayed at my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you can recall about that?

Miss MURRET. We went to the lake, and Lee was doing all the crabbing, of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so I just sat there with Marina. And then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and I got some cigarettes, and I remember she said that she didn't smoke, and that Lee didn't want her to smoke. So we came on back and Marina told him something in Russian, and he started to laugh. And he said, "Do you know what she said?" I said "No." He said, or he was saying that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you spend or you only could afford, I think he had two nets, and that was all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "You spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the French Market and got them for the same price." He said, "They are all alike, you know, Russians, American, typical woman." I just sat there with her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever catch any crabs that day?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that was said or that happened on that day that was worthy of any note?

Miss MURRET. She didn't say anything and he was walking up and down----

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee was?

Miss MURRET. And I was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only an hour and a half.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were not able to talk to Marina?

Miss MURRET. I said a little bit, but nothing--I mean, you couldn't really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you know, word for word.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the first place? Did Lee call you and ask you to take him, or----

Miss MURRET. No; I think that they were over there and he just said, I don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. I don't remember. And then they asked me, stopped and asked me if I wanted to----

Mr. LIEBELER. But when this started out, Lee and Marina were over at your house on French? And Marina and Lee left from there and went on this expedition?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to how Marina and Lee got along with each other?

Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probably I--and he seemed to--I don't know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute couple.

Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here?

Miss MURRET. Only what I read.

Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?

Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, "Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment or----

Miss MURRET. She didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment?

Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand----

Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low ceilings.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished?

Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very nice for the money, actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it?

Miss MURRET. Sixty-five.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in?

Miss MURRET. On Magazine--I don't know about Magazine, but I don't think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?

Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?

Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was--if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to?

Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program?

Miss MURRET. Yes; television.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about Kennedy on that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of President Kennedy?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the Negro?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing?

Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly--I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and August of 1963, and where were you?

Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and Panama.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel?

Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon?

Miss MURRET. No; public transportation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or subsequently?

Miss MURRET. On this trip, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a tourist operation?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?

Miss MURRET. My family.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you?

Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets.

So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was just a personal favor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this episode when you saw him on Labor Day?

Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile?

Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take his car and go by himself.

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did?

Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think it was in the park.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up Marina and take her back to Texas?

Miss MURRET. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee Co. sometime during the summer?

Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he lose it?

Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone.

Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, 13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.

Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in Japan?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did you go, and what did you do?

Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through, Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip?

Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher?

Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?

Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2 years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination?

Miss MURRET. At Juno.

Mr. LIEBELER. In school?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in connection with it?

Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Slightly!

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised?

Miss MURRET. Of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it?

Miss MURRET. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything?

Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the eyes of the world.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had?

Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to----

Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself?

Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human being?

Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee company?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job?

Miss MURRET. He said it was all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things or not?

Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity?

Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely intelligent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was?

Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?

Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?

Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?

Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.

Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. And I don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, I guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem?

Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on Marxism or communism?

Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?

Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street?

Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything----

Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you?

Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; however----

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know?

Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys, and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a Marxist.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?

Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination?

Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?

Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? Do you believe he did it?

Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.

Miss MURRET. I don't know of any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times?

Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?

Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET

The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly sworn testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. Did she receive those?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. You did read them?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, 1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you know, if anything, in that regard.

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Dutz.

Mr. JENNER. Dutz?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?

Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just stuck with me.

Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting?

Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a career of it, or anything.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you?

Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63.

Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans?

Mr. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family.

Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the way.

Mr. MURRET. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five?

Mr. MURRET. Five.

Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in Mobile, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.

Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb Co., is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now.

Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball player, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls.

Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics?

Mr. MURRET. Well, yes.

Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed?

Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball when he was in high school; did you know that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have.

Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys are right handed?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers.

Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her.

Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her?

Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife.

Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic?

Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance.

Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.

Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years.

Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore?

Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, but his firm is in that line of business.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding.

Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in that marriage?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they separated?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did.

Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see them pretty often.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What business was he in?

Mr. MURRET. The insurance business.

Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman?

Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his company.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street?

Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was right after he died.

Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the child? Did she go to work, or what?

Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of my business, so I didn't ask about that.

Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business?

Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, after Mr. Oswald died?

Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life.

Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right?

Mr. MURRET. Not too well.

Mr. JENNER. Not too well?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody that disagreed with her, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, to that extent.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did they go?

Mr. MURRET. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. To Texas?

Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went.

Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they left.

Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of 1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New Orleans? Do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old?

Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned to New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, or do you know?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.

Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when he returned?

Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.

Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New Orleans, didn't they?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans on that occasion?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that they were in New York; I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?

Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.

Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas, right?

Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost contact with them.

Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at Exchange Alley, didn't they?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them?

Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't remember what month, but it was about that.

Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood?

Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would like to stay with us until he found something.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then?

Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, "Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Not a thing?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion?

Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and bring them to the house?

Mr. MURRET. Did I help him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with any luggage, not that day.

Mr. JENNER. The next day?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a couple of days afterward.

Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of days later, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus station?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't remember it?

Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you don't recall it at this time?

Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at that time?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that sort of thing?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it?

Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get his luggage?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that.

Mr. JENNER. And you drove?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove.

Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge?

Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?

Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them.

Mr. JENNER. What else did he have?

Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes?

Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases?

Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you?

Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was contained?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared at your house after all those years?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the number is concerned, I don't know it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Marina?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and have her come over?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.

Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine arrived?

Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.

Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and everything?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two children with her.

Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come and visit you or your family at your home?

Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must have come in the daytime.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over?

Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the baby, and Lee.

Mr. JENNER. How did this come about?

Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made over to Mobile?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over there?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over there.

Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there?

Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were on the grounds.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. How about Marina?

Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in.

Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he was making.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?

Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the trip or the motel or anything.

Mr. JENNER. You paid it?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of Castro, on the mantel there.

Mr. JENNER. On the mantel?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested.

Mr. JENNER. Last summer?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In August it was there?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here?

Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio.

Mr. JENNER. The radio?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the radio instead.

Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the program?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an automobile?

Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach him to talk American to his little child.

Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that?

Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he didn't give me an answer to that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left Russia?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of Russia?

Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't disrupt anything around there.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him?

Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and she said, "I like America."

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this matter?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What do you prefer to do in that respect?

Mr. MURRET. I will waive it.

Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your deposition?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all the questions I have.

Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for anyone, especially for his mother.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that you had contact with him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like that. He wanted to do it all himself.

Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right?

Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET

The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, will you state your full name for the record.

Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them?

Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them?

Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey Oswald's cousin?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he not, D-u-t-z?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education here in the New Orleans school system?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?

Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. Louis University and Loyola University.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree?

Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in?

Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.

Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did have with him. Since I did live in the house and did----

Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street?

Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was?

Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am not too sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or can't you----

Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind of confused now on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and Oswald was there?

Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you gain an impression about that?

Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I couldn't, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort of thing is concerned?

Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in?

Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or something, you know, similar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of photography?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United States?

Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and wanted to come back to the States.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his experience in Russia? Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French Street for about a week? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or some place around there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job?

Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald apparently rented on Magazine Street?

Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him on getting a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car?

Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to start the car and so forth, what to do on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.

Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street over to the parking lot in the park?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French Street?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or anything. Nobody was in the park.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could have handled it, you know, the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car?

Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself without your permission?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was here in New Orleans, as far as you know?

Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit priest----

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along?

Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know?

Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, since that time?

Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all?

Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with my brother, you know, just asking him about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that?

Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?

Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene, indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?

Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned, there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought?

Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit priest?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for lunch----

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her?

Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually couldn't speak to her, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could speak English?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination----

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her use of the English language, did you not?

Mr. MURRET. Definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the assassination?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina together?

Mr. MURRET. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with each other?

Mr. MURRET. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty well. In fact, they had a television program on one day--I forget what it was, on a Friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in their relationship, as far as you could tell?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; not that I could see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics----

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald at all?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character from your observations and experience with him in 1963?

Mr. MURRET. In the summer of 1963?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I say, his appearance in general--I mean, just by looking at him, he just didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit. Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that, he wouldn't ask for anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of fellow?

Mr. MURRET. He was proud, there is no doubt about it. He was proud.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you form an opinion about his intelligence?

Mr. MURRET. He was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the right direction, I really don't know, but he was--but he improved particularly, you know, from the younger years that I had known him. He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive.

Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to speak well and was articulate?

Mr. MURRET. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual wouldn't use in conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time?

Mr. MURRET. At the time. Either that or my parents had told me. I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail?

Mr. MURRET. Nothing at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was on a radio debate over at WDSU?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not?

Mr. MURRET. Right. He sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after the radio debate?

Mr. MURRET. If I did see him, I didn't discuss it, you know, with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in connection with those events?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. To my understanding, she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mr. MURRET. Did she tell me that? That is my oldest sister.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name?

Mr. MURRET. Joyce O'Brien.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does she live?

Mr. MURRET. She lives in Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been involved in getting Oswald out of jail?

Mr. MURRET. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Oswald as a younger boy?

Mr. MURRET. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to hold any conversation with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he was when he was a kid?

Mr. MURRET. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic].

Mr. LIEBELER. What?

Mr. MURRET. Harmful.

Mr. LIEBELER. Harmful?

Mr. MURRET. Harmless.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Murret?

Mr. MURRET. I am 29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Twenty-nine?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the youngest member of the Murret family? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Lee Oswald's older brother, Robert?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you say, or how much contact did you have with Robert?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, that you can remember, was there?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I couldn't say. I didn't have that much contact.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would like to have you tell us.

Mr. MURRET. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, right away, he has a job located for you--in photography I think it was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did call Lee?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you reach him at the coffee plant?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything when you told him that this employment agency was looking for him?

Mr. MURRET. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was looking for. Other than that, that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the employment agency?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up, different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee own a suit of clothes?

Mr. MURRET. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went looking for a job?

Mr. MURRET. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only suit he had that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out at the place on French Street?

Mr. MURRET. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag.

Mr. LIEBELER. Something like an airline bag?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a soft----

Mr. MURRET. Right, just a small bag.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what color it was?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this point.

Mr. MURRET. O.K.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.

The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir?

Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista.

Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. PIC. I understand.

Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No. 11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission, upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack Ruby.

The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me, to my surprise, that you were very much alive?

Mr. PIC. I certainly am.

Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of deposition, as we are doing here today.

Mr. PIC. May I say something?

Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything.

Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January, that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was still alive.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance.

Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told him I didn't; and that was all.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the reports of his death were very much exaggerated?

So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the country, are you not?

Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way?

Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that right, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that took place when?

Mr. PIC. 1929.

Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people?

Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907.

Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate.

Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. Three years?

Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually terminated?

Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you separated?

Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple of years; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married to Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk.

Mr. JENNER. In what company?

Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son.

Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company?

Mr. PIC. I am, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has changed; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What do you do now?

Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department of the company.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company.

Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the company.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your own words what difficulty you had with her.

Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it come out to four.

Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence?

Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not.

Mr. JENNER. On either side?

Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time?

Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along, you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing off; which we did.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a nice girl at that time?

Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I had a rotten disposition, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening years; haven't you?

Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another "Jr.," or II or III?

Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him.

Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation?

Mr. PIC. After the separation.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the separation?

Mr. PIC. I was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate, and we did.

Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place?

Mr. PIC. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy?

Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered?

Mr. PIC. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child support to your son?

Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much as I could out of the salary I would make.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to her?

Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent monthly checks.

Mr. JENNER. In the same amount?

Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as alimony?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all.

Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall?

Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20 semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her.

Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a month, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry?

Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name?

Mr. PIC. Marjorie.

Mr. JENNER. What was her given name?

Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married.

Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow?

Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had died.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy?

Mr. PIC. Girl.

Mr. JENNER. What is her name?

Mr. PIC. Martha.

Mr. JENNER. How old is she?

Mr. PIC. 17 this July.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you?

Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex., or Brownsville; I just don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they refresh your recollection.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010 Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it.

Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic Avenue?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas?

Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year?

Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947?

Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue?

Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort Worth about then.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she was in Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments were finally stopped, is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950.

Mr. JENNER. In 1950?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved around quite a bit, as we know?

Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the check.

Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that, because I didn't know he was working.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the Coast Guard?

Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard. So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried, it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about the 1-year age, that I actually seen him.

Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old?

Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old.

Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never seen him?

Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time.

Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you haven't seen Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that.

Mr. JENNER. 37 years?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did you?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination, which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and her son, and all.

I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, "Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald?

Mr. PIC. No; I never met him.

Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl?

Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment?

Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time?

Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother never did tell him about his old man.

Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even know if he knows you are alive, do you?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things?

Mr. PIC. No; you never know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions.

Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr. Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was mentioned to me.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you want to waive that?

Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want a lot of publicity or anything, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and telling us what you know about it.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO

The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. The Commission will provide you copies of those documents.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice of his testimony. I don't believe you actually received 3 days' notice.

Mr. CARRO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But since you are here, I don't believe there is any question that you will----

Mr. CARRO. There's no problem.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire briefly of you today, Mr. Carro, concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald when he lived here in New York at the time he was approximately 13 years old, back in 1953-54.

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. CARRO. Well, my name is John Carro.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. CARRO. 56 Lakeside Drive, in Yonkers, State of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. CARRO. I am employed with the mayor's office here in the city of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are an assistant to the mayor?

Mr. CARRO. An assistant to the mayor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. CARRO. I was born in Orocovis, P.R.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. CARRO. August 21, 1927.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States?

Mr. CARRO. I came to the United States, I believe it was in 1937--'37.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you came to New York at that time?

Mr. CARRO. New York City; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have lived in New York City ever since, or its environs?

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I went to junior high school and high school, college and law school here. I attended Benjamin Franklin High School, Fordham University and Brooklyn Law School. I graduated from law school in 1952. In addition, I attended schools in the Navy, the hospital corps school, and I attended one year at NYU, the School of Public Administration, under the city executive program.

I am an attorney and have a B.S. degree from the University of Fordham.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here in New York?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; I have. I have from the time I was admitted to practice in February of 1956 been in the practice of law. Even at the present time, although I am not, myself, actively engaged, I maintain a law partnership where I practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were a probation officer, assigned as a probation officer to the Domestic Relations Court.

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New York?

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At what time did you first become so assigned?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I worked with the Probation Department of the Domestic Relations Court, Children's Division, from early 1952 'til 1954. I am trying to recollect--from 1952 to 1954. I believe it was up to October of 1954. It may have been around September of 1954. I'm not sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us, after 1954 did you hold any other public office or any other----

Mr. CARRO. Oh, yes; I worked from 1949 to 1952 as a social investigator for the city of New York. From 1952 to 1954 I was probation officer of the Children's Court. Then, in 1954 for about a month or so I was with the New York City Police Department as a probationary patrolman and left to join the New York City Youth Board where I worked as a social--I mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. I worked with the New York Youth Board for 4 years with their council of Social and Athletic Clubs, which is the common name given to the "street gang project."

From 1958 to 1960 I was appointed to the State Commission Against Discrimination. I worked with them as a field representative.

In 1960 to 1961 I worked for Mobilization for Youth, which is a privately financed organization with Federal, State, and city funds and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate director, and from 1961 to the present I have been an assistant to the mayor of the city of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does your job with the mayor at the present time relate to youth, or more generally----

Mr. CARRO. Yes, in the sense that I have liaison responsibility with the various social service agencies, which included the Youth Board, the Department of Correction and City Commission on Human Rights. I do a great deal of work with education and youth, and I am in charge of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own background experience have been so that I have represented the mayor on the President's Committee on Narcotics. I also have worked with the Mobilization for Youth. I have sat in for the mayor on some of the situations. I naturally tend to this kind of work.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you first become interested in this? Was this because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior to that?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I think it was a combination of both. I grew up in east Harlem, and I belonged to a number of organizations, and actually I desired to get social work experience, and when I went into the welfare department I found out that I would enjoy it much better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, I happened to read--I heard that probation work with youth--than welfare investigator, and while in probation I read about the youth board work, and I liked the idea of a detached worker approach, working in the streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court and had already committed a crime, and this is why I left the police department, in the thought that I would like to do that.

I have an interest in young people.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the time that you worked as a probation officer did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Yes, I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us everything that you can remember about that in your own words?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I was first assigned to the case, I believe it was about April of 1953. This was a petition that had been brought before the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, Lee Harvey Oswald, because of his truancy from school. He had been absent quite a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school; he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the Board of Education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out why the boy is not going to school. Apparently their efforts were fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had been asked to come into court with the boy.

My recollection, as I recall, is that initially the mother did not bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy, and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy be remanded to Youth House for what they call a sociological study. The case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible determination as to the case.

This is the instance that I came into the case. The judge having made a finding and ordered an investigation, I was the probation officer assigned to do the investigation in the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original finding that the judge made was that Oswald was a truant, and the first finding also ordered Oswald to be committed in the Youth House, is that correct?

Mr. CARRO. Remanded, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Remanded.

Mr. CARRO. Pending investigation, and for a sociological study while there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would the probation officer work with the boy while he was in the Youth House or basically after he got out of the Youth House?

Mr. CARRO. No, actually the probation officer's job would be then to develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court, talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling relationship, parental history, look into the school record. In this particular instance it was most important because there was a question of truancy. Also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background, his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court, get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed should happen in this instance.

Unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation officers do not make recommendations, in Children's Court the probation officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along with or reject or take it under consideration. This was aside from what was going on in Youth House.

In Youth House the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact, and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his off moments for 2 to 3 weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report, along with what the probation officer has been able to get from visits to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed, whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy, whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever the judge would deem in the particular instance.

Mr. LIEBELER. In this particular case you recall that Oswald was remanded to Youth House?

Mr. CARRO. Yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the Youth House because he had not even bothered to report to school. I forget whether he had just turned 13 or he was still 12, but in New York State we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at least 16, and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more, and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type--when I say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is. This is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do anything.

The judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he asked for the study at the Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who worked with Lee Oswald at the Youth House?

Mr. CARRO. No; I only know that--I did not know the staff by name. I had been there on some occasions, so I do not know specifically who. I know he was seen by the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, because they do send you their report afterwards, and I did receive a Youth House report, but I don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with Lee Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. How does it come that you remember receiving Dr. Hartogs' report?

Mr. CARRO. Well, because since he was sent there and he is the doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and Dr. Hartogs, I knew, was the one who did it for the court. He was the chief psychiatrist or so. All the reports were signed by him, almost, that came to us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Dr. Hartogs actually interviewed these children and talked to them?

Mr. CARRO. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or did he just administer the work of other psychiatrists, do you know?

Mr. CARRO. I don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the work for him. As a matter of fact, I don't know how many times he saw Lee or his mother. All we used to get is a report signed by Dr. Hartogs. I don't know if he personally saw this boy or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. What else can you remember of your contacts with Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Let me tell you my recollection of the Oswald case. As you can imagine, from 13 years ago, this was an odd thing, because I did not realize that Oswald was the person that had killed Kennedy the first couple of days. It was only almost--I believe it was after the burial or just about that time, while I was watching the papers, on the day that he actually was killed by Ruby, that I saw some pictures of the mother, and I started reading about the New York situation, that it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in Texas, 1,500 miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that you had 10 years prior or 12 years prior.

A friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "Carro, you know who that case is?"

And he said, "That was the case you handled. Don't you remember?"

And then we started discussing the case, and I remembered then, and what happened then is I felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with it. I was a probation officer and despite the fact that I was no longer one, I still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about something that I knew that no one else knew, and I went upstairs and I told the press secretary to the mayor. I told him the information that had just been relayed to me that I had been Oswald's P.O. and that I should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to Washington, so he told me, "Just sit tight and don't say anything."

The story didn't break in the papers--this was on a Tuesday or Wednesday--until Saturday when someone found out, went to Judge Kelley, and then there were stories Friday, Saturday, and the Post reporter showed up to my house on a Sunday evening. I don't know how he found out where I lived or anything else, but once he got there, I called city hall again, "Look, I got this reporter over here. What do I do with him?"

They said, "So apparently the story has broken. So talk to him." But the reporter it seemed, had more information than I had. He was actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're not going to quote, you know, paraphrase 13 years later what happened. I have worked with a great many children during that time, and I have done a great deal of work with youth. What did stand out, you know, that I really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that this was a small boy. Most of the boys that I had on probation were Puerto Rican or Negro, and they were New York type of youngsters who spoke in the same slang, who came from the Bronx whom I knew how to relate to because I knew the areas where they came from, and this boy was different only in two or three respects. One, that I was a Catholic probation officer and this boy was a Lutheran, which was strange to begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background. And secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from the average boy that I had on probation.

And, as I said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. He seemed fairly bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. He was somewhat guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything; he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. He seems to have liked his stay at Youth House, and this is not--how do you call it--not odd, because in Youth House they did show the movies and give candy bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it mean anything to me.

As I told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had any Marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that I was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty.

Actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that once we got him back to school, which I told him in no uncertain terms he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved. I think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the treatment for the boy, because I did make a recommendation that he--it seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and not wanting to relate to anyone, and that I thought he had the capacity for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution.

Now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the child, and I think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened herself. People do not always understand what group work and treatment and psychiatric treatment means. There are all kinds of connotations to it, and she resisted this.

We tried--or even before we came into the case, before the case came to court, I think she had been referred to the Salvation Army, I believe it was, and she had not responded. Actually, when the boy came back with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision per se to me. The matter was sort of up in the air where it would be brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to see if they would take him into Children's Village or Harriman Farms, and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around for placement for him. And the mother, I think, felt threatened about that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out of the State, and we told her she could not take him out without the court's OK.

As a matter of fact, I recall the case was put on the calendar before Judge Sicher in November of that year, 1953, when she was told, yes, that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the court, and to the Big Brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for working with. With that the mother took off in January, without letting us know, and just never came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that Mrs. Oswald had the idea that you were going to take the boy and place him?

Mr. CARRO. I think she might have had the idea because we certainly were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying, "Well, try Children's Village. Try Harriman Farms, try this place and try that."

I think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the boy would not work out, that he would be placed. This was one of the recommendations that I felt he should be placed, and the court also; something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know, marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a summary report in the file that he had been elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report to that effect. Do you recall anything about that?

Mr. CARRO. No. As a matter of fact, the one that I recall is that he neglected to salute the American flag in class, and the reason I never said anything of that to the newspapers is because I figured they would pick this up and say, you know, "See, 15 years ago he refused to salute the American flag. This is proof." And I did not want a newspaper headline, you know, "Oswald at the age of 12 refused to salute the American flag."

Mr. LIEBELER. That happens from time to time, I suppose, in children that age?

Mr. CARRO. The kind of reports that came back, he was a little disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that I would, you know, singly point out. He did not become president of the class that I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that you had the feeling that the possibility of Lee Oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment, which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a threat to or threatened the mother. What did you mean by that?

Mr. CARRO. Well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the boy's treatment process. She saw herself as removed, as this having nothing to do with her. Furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted that he go back to school her attitude was, "Why are you bothering me? You're harassing me. He's back in school. Why do you want him to go to the clinic for? Why should I go with him? Why do we have to see the Protestant Big Brothers for? He has brothers. What does he need brothers for? Leave us alone. I don't like New York. I was a woman of means in Louisiana when my husband was alive."

Here in New York she just felt that people were--this was just bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. Or she may have been as disturbed as the boy but we were just trying to get her involved in whatever plan we had for the boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. I wanted to seek your opinion on that.

Mr. CARRO. I think she was. Even at that time I said that she was so self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything, and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. The fact that a boy could stay out of school, I think it was 47 days before he went to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her inability to cope with this situation.

Then this plus, this idea--I don't know if she, in fact, came from wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she was a woman of means and all that, but in New York here, she had been downgraded to this kind of a thing. She mentioned that part of his problem was that when he first came to live here in the Bronx, they lived around the Grand Concourse, and I don't know if you are familiar with the Bronx, but Grand Concourse is an area of fairly middle class Jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a little below the level of the children up there. He did dress in levis and I think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same way, and she was working, as I think I recall it, in a department store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that I do not think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the feeling that Mrs. Oswald felt that if--I can say this because I have lived in New York for the last 7 years myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. I am really a New Yorker. Did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey New Yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business everything would be all right? In other words, it was just a kind of situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the city that was different from the way things were in Texas, maybe, or Louisiana, that this had----

Mr. CARRO. I don't have any doubt about it. I think she must have thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that in some other States--I was brought up in Puerto Rico, myself; if a boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the Big Brothers got involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why I said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss was all about. She said so, too. No question in my mind about that. I am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the State and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her she could not go without the OK of the court, that the boy was under the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the court felt that it was OK.

Mr. LIEBELER. She did advise you, however, before leaving the State, that she did intend to leave the State of New York, did she not?

Mr. CARRO. Well, she advised my colleague, Timothy Dunn, I was on vacation I think that month of January, she came in to see him, she was referred by the Big Brothers, who told her she could not leave without coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it would be up to the judge.

You see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit it. Routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to Newark, N.J., or, you know, Louisiana, that they are going to live with such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "I am moving out to Philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. You go up to the court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are. And this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing.

So she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this.

Mr. LIEBELER. But despite that fact she left the jurisdiction?

Mr. CARRO. I wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was returned "Moved, address unknown." I was asked about what happens then, and, well, there is very little that one can really do. We don't have extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone. This is about the sum total of what happened there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself try to find a place to place this boy?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of the psychiatrist, those that I had made were before the judge, and he went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost 9 months I spent in making referral after referral to the various institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines, because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that this boy did need this kind of help; and I mentioned that the tragedy of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age and his religion, the facilities that we had here in New York were taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the kind of help that he needed. It was either that it was a Protestant place and he was--well, he was a Lutheran, it was either a Catholic and he was a Lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated their being able to service him.

I remember, for example, that the Salvation Army got a referral, and they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the intensive treatment he needed. This was their reason for turning him down.

Children's village at the time, which could have given service to this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so on down the line. Finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at the same time receive the support of help from the Big Brothers, which was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and this is actually when the mother left. So that the boy was not going to be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the limits of the situation we had with the boy at home.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own psychiatric clinic. That is a different proposition from the Youth House, is it not?

Mr. CARRO. Yes. This is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on 22d Street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would be an outpatient-type situation?

Mr. CARRO. An outpatient-type of situation, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never actually did do that, however, because he left the State?

Mr. CARRO. No; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and having left the jurisdiction. I don't think they got to see him once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Oswald was more mentally disturbed than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time?

Mr. CARRO. Not at all, actually. I have handled cases of boys who committed murders, burglaries, and I have had some extremely disturbed boys, and this was one of the problems, this was just initially a truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent behavior. No; I would definitely not put him among those who acted as--I also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you know, greater in depth than those displayed by Oswald; and the behavior which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more extreme nature.

Mr. LIEBELER. Than his?

Mr. CARRO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a real mental problem or prone to violence or----

Mr. CARRO. No. He appeared to have problems, but one of the problems in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the New York Training School for Boys at Warwick? And the fact is that the New York Training School for Boys at Warwick is for delinquent boys who commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that attaches because he is under 16. You don't normally send a boy who just stays out of school. It is for boys who commit serious acts. And as a matter of fact, Warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive psychiatric help. And that is why he was not sent to the only school we have in the city, which is Warwick, for the more serious boy. More seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act. It is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm to other people. It is an act of omission, a failure to go to school rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property or injurying persons or other things. And this is one of the factors in here.

It was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children.

But here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going to school; he had no friends; he had--no agency was working with the family. He was on his own. He was just watching television all day. He wasn't mixing with anybody. He was an extremely introverted young man. He didn't want to go to school. So that in effect he had nothing going for him outside.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show any inclination to cooperate.

Mr. CARRO. She was ineffectual. She didn't want to cooperate and there was nothing that I as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say, "Keep him here in New York City. The mother will see him through, between his mother and I, this agency and I." There was nothing there out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him see these things through.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy himself, you would say?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance or psychotic disorder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that his particular type of truancy was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out----

Mr. CARRO. Fly kites or pigeons, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think it was different because Oswald just had a tendency to stay home and watch television?

Mr. CARRO. No----

Mr. LIEBELER. Wait, please----

Mr. CARRO. I am sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or did you think that the fact that he had this different kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on Oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of environment, the environment that he found himself in here in New York?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I don't think there is any question in my mind that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of environment. One of the things that probably influenced me in this is that I came to New York City when I was 9 years of age and when I came here I didn't speak a word of English, and I lived in what we call East Harlem, in an area where there was a Puerto Rican community within a Negro area, and I recall when I went to school there were four Puerto Rican boys in a class that was otherwise all Negro, and I used to virtually run home every day in the first 2 months I lived in the city, because at one point or another the Negro boys would be waiting for me outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that I had in my hands.

I remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and I don't think I was downstairs for 10 minutes with the skates--I don't think I was down there for 10 minutes before they took them away from me. And I just stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at 5 o'clock.

Then eventually I made friends with the other three boys, and when somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and I fought with the Negro boys until things worked out--and, as I remember, things didn't work out. I had to transfer to another school.

But I can see this kind of reaction taking place. You meet the situations. Either you meet them head on or you retreat from them.

Now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and to dress the same way or even comb his hair--you know, here the kids wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. There is no--that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that I recall that I asked him. He felt he wasn't learning anything in school and that he had other, more important things to learn and do.

Now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, I don't know--but it didn't--let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. I thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another fashion.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that some statements have been made, based apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people who worked with Lee Oswald here in New York when he was 13 years old, to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the assassination, or some similar violent act. Did you see any such indication in Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. No; naturally I didn't see it, and I would say that would be extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection or prediction. I have even, when I worked with the Youth Board as a streetclub worker, I worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that just keeps them on their marginal--what do you call--on this marginal living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from just blowing up or exploding altogether.

I didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would someday commit this act. I have seen it, let's say, in the Puerto Rican youth I am familiar with, the Negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and say, "I am me. I am alive."

I worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this Raymond Serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited him in jail he said, "Did you see my picture in the papers?" And the paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. And they don't realize that 2 days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest, the most remorseful kids. This is just the bravado at the moment. And this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's attention--most of these kids in private life come from broken homes, and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that motivated Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I am saying that this is a young man who apparently was trying to find himself and really had been--you know, he had been knocking about a great deal from here to Russia and everywhere, and he had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. Some people are prone to this.

I wouldn't speculate on what drove Oswald to do this. I would say in my experience I have encountered many a boy who will do things like this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want somebody to care for them. It is hard to say what motivated him. I don't really know. I had no inkling of that at that stage.

As a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the Service, just like his brothers, who were in the Service, and he said he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. But certainly these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things any normal boy of 13 years of age would do. There was nothing that would lead me to believe when I saw him at the age of 12 that there would be seeds of destruction for somebody. I couldn't in all honesty sincerely say such a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask this, Mr. Carro: After you became aware of the fact, after it was called to your attention that Lee Oswald had been under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to review the records of the case before you----

Mr. CARRO. No; I had no--there was nothing to review. Those kind of records were all kept in the children's court. The only recollection--and they were not furnished to me. The newspaper guy who came to see me seemed to have gotten, as I mentioned--there were five reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. I don't know. I am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he seemed to have a better knowledge. He was just in a sense corroborating what I may have said at a particular point and all that, with me, and I had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from me, who called me to say that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you yourself have not actually reviewed----

Mr. CARRO. I have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to refresh my recollection about.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you had not seen the court's papers or the petition that was filed, or the memorandum----

Mr. CARRO. No; the only thing that I might have seen, and I don't--an FBI agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and I don't know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down, as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little I could add to what was in the record there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The record that you prepared----

Mr. CARRO. Well, I noticed it was my handwriting. He seemed to have my record with him. I had no independent recollection or evidence outside of the records he had.

Mr. LIEBELER. The records which you would have prepared would be prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct?

Mr. CARRO. Correct, and I would have nothing to add now at this point as to what happened 12 years ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document that is captioned "Supplementary Facts and Explanations," which appears to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with Lee Oswald. This particular document I refer to consists of eight pages and I would ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the Youth House, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in connection with the court proceedings relating to Lee Oswald?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; as I just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form where you begin with the identifying information as to the child, the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record, family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version, which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer based on his getting together all this data.

And you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the actual study.

And then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded, who appeared, when, and I note that my signature--not my signature but my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time he was under the supervision of the court, right up to January 1954.

Just perusing over this, I know that this is the various reports that I made to the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it finally concludes with your statement----

Mr. CARRO. Yes; concluding with the last statement of the court action of March 11, 1954, before Justice Delaney, where there was no appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself, the probation officer, before the court, and that Mrs. Barnes reported that she had contacted New Orleans and received no information as to the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former associate thought that the family may have been living in California.

Justice Delaney discharged the case and Lee was no longer in our jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea; we attempted to find out; we wrote to Louisiana and New Orleans but couldn't get back any positive reports.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would this particular document, which I will mark as "Exhibit 1" on the deposition of Mr. John Carro, April 16, 1964, at New York--would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of the record as a special report?

Mr. CARRO. No; this would be part of the court record, and actually the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own small notations when the probation officer appears. And that is the docket. That is kept up in the courtroom in their files. These are the records--this is the actual record that is kept by the probation department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is just this initial report. You don't send in the day-to-day or the month-to-month, other subsequent actions. So that this is a separate report.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of the action taken?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is the record.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with the case?

Mr. CARRO. This is the record that the probation officer maintains while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or--all the contacts and any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here and make a small notation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Carro, I have initialed Exhibit 1 on your deposition for purposes of identification, and I ask you if you would also initial it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying it. I am correct in my understanding, am I not, that you prepared this report?

Mr. CARRO. Yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for one or two that may have been made by Mr. Dunn--and I refer to the entry of 1-5-54, while I was on vacation--those bearing the name John Carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked is a somewhat illegible copy.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow paper, which does not reproduce well. I will obtain the original and make it a part of the record. Can you think of anything else, Mr. Carro, about Oswald or your contacts with Oswald that you think would be of help to the Commission?

Mr. CARRO. Well, I think that there has been so much written on it that you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been able to get the actual records of these statements that I made at the time I wrote this. I doubt that I could really say anything at this point, 12 years later or so, that would be of any help to you.

Whatever I might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and I don't think that would be that valid. I think you have the original psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it is, and they are amply--I don't think that I could add anything independently that would be of help to the Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. In view of that, Mr. Carro, I don't have any more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. It is another example of the way the city of New York and the people who are associated with it have cooperated with the work of the Commission. The Commission appreciates it very much. We thank you sincerely.

Mr. CARRO. I appreciate very much your having me over here. I would like to offer whatever help I can, and I hope I have been of some help in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Carro.

Mr. CARRO. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RENATUS HARTOGS

The testimony of Dr. Renatus Hartogs was taken at 5:20 p.m., on April 16, 1964, at 7 East 86th Street, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Renatus Hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 1130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

The Commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, that each witness should receive a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony. The Commission will provide you with copies of these documents.

The rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that a witness may have counsel if he wishes. He is entitled to 3 days' notice, which I do not believe you had, but every witness is also entitled to waive that notice. I presume that you will waive the notice since we are here.

Dr. HARTOGS. That's right, sure, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you concerning the contact which the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald some time in 1953 or 1954.

Would you state your full name for the record, please.

Dr. HARTOGS. Renatus Hartogs.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Dr. HARTOGS. 7 East 86th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born and when?

Dr. HARTOGS. In Mainz, M-a-i-n-z, Germany, January 22, 1909.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you come to the United States, Doctor?

Dr. HARTOGS. On December 4, 1940.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received your education in Germany, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. In Germany, in Belgium. I have a Ph. D. from the University of Frankfurt-am-Main, which is Germany, and I have a medical degree from the University of Brussels Medical School, and then I came to the United States and I studied medicine again to fulfill the requirements of the New York State Education Department, and I have a medical degree from the University of Montreal Medical School. Then I have an M.A. from New York University, and that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what field is that?

Dr. HARTOGS. In clinical psychopathology.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are----

Dr. HARTOGS. I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State of New York, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. In the State of New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have taken the examination for the practice of medicine?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice of medicine as a psychiatrist?

Dr. HARTOGS. As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing here in the United States as a psychiatrist?

Dr. HARTOGS. In the States since 1949.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you practice medicine in Germany?

Dr. HARTOGS. In Belgium.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you practice in Belgium?

Dr. HARTOGS. 3 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of medicine?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, psychologist.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House of New York City, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you held that position?

Dr. HARTOGS. Since 1951.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are.

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number. As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not.

I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional public of New York City is invited.

So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason why I vaguely remember him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were also, as you have testified, the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953.

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much the same in 1953 as they are now?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately?

Dr. HARTOGS. Approximately I would say 300.

Mr. LIEBELER. A staff?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have about two staff members for every child.

Mr. LIEBELER. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were other psychiatrists.

Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, my staff?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your staff.

Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, I thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how many did you have in 1953?

Dr. HARTOGS. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously. Sometimes we had even four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff continuously.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions? Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York?

Dr. HARTOGS. Right now it is part of the probation department of the city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department. Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does the city of New York support it financially?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, the city of New York pays for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it still a private organization at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. At that time it was a private organization, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a citizen of the United States, are you not?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, since 1945.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us in general terms what the procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the Youth House; he goes to the Youth House.

Dr. HARTOGS. He goes to the Youth House, that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What generally happens to him then?

Dr. HARTOGS. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure drawings. That is a special test that is given.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who administers that, social workers on the staff?

Dr. HARTOGS. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right away from the beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy. Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own workshops for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health.

So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various departments.

Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the parents of the child who are invited.

Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents, I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist.

And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth House staff.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House?

Dr. HARTOGS. 30 hours per week.

Mr. LIEBELER. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you see during the period of time in a week, average week?

Dr. HARTOGS. During that, 10 or 12.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours with each child, is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still true?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen for about half an hour to an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. By you?

Dr. HARTOGS. By me, but then I have also to study the record which takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that counts about 2 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can remember about that interview in your own words.

Dr. HARTOGS. That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a mild charge as truancy from school.

This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is the reason why we discussed him in the seminar.

I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact with reality.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was?

Dr. HARTOGS. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you gave; is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. The seminar; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview with Lee Oswald itself?

Dr. HARTOGS. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the general subject matter of the seminar?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about the development, background and early history of the child; then the Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject matter for the seminar?

Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select these children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar prepared?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records relating to the seminar?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written down; it is purely informal.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only writings that would have been at the seminar would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court in respect of Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this youngster should be committed to an institution.

Mr. LIEBELER. What type of institution, do you recall?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the personality pattern disturbance; is that correct?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know?

Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that is the average stay.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say?

Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a training school. These are the three purposes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something like that?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is maximum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended that Oswald be committed to?

Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific institution. This is a prerogative of the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of institution to which you recommend a child?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this case what I recommended.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that he should not be placed in the community.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or placed on probation?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the FBI?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know the date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially dangerous?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had previous contact?

Dr. HARTOGS. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the wording?

Dr. HARTOGS. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used; potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the expressions.

Mr. LIEBELER. These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of work?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And not generally used by others?

Dr. HARTOGS. And by me generally in dealing with children.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that indicated this?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you learned or became aware that Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact?

Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did not know for sure, but it is possible.

And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said, "You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for sure that it was me, because they must have read a report.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy?

Dr. HARTOGS. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then reconstructed everything in my mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you have indicated, by recalling----

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, then I recalled everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any statement to television people in connection with this at all?

Dr. HARTOGS. About Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Dr. HARTOGS. No; on the day after President Kennedy died, the television people asked me to make a statement on television in general about why somebody might kill the President. I did not mention any name. I did not refer to any individual. I just made some general psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall approximately what you said?

Dr. HARTOGS. That a person who would commit such an act has been very likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to overcome his own insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world, which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general terms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had examined Lee Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was not?

Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They didn't know. They called me because they call me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or something like that. They did not know, and I did not know for sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. At that time neither one of you were----

Dr. HARTOGS. And they selected me. I mean it was a fantastic thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was purely coincidence?

Dr. HARTOGS. Coincidence that they selected me.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you made no reference at that time to the examination which you had made of Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. None at all. I didn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the report which you made at the time you examined Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that report since the assassination?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the recollection that you have given us as regards your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview with Oswald from the seminar that you recall having given?

Dr. HARTOGS. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything else that particularly impressed you about Oswald? The FBI report indicates that you were greatly impressed by the boy, who was only 13-1/2 years old at the time, because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. Do you remember telling that to the agents?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in control of his emotions. He showed a cold, detached outer attitude. He talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should I say, nonparticipating fashion. I mean there was nothing emotional, affective about him, and this impressed me. That was the only thing which I remembered; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you recall also that Oswald was a slender and pale-faced boy?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember what particular thing it was about Oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality disturbance? What led you to this diagnosis?

Dr. HARTOGS. It was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as I recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their opinions on his behalf. That is as far as I recall it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, his mental endowment?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; but that I don't recall for sure. It was at least average at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to mark "Exhibit 1" on the examination of Dr. Renatus Hartogs, April 16, 1964, in New York, a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report," indicating a report on case No. 26996; date of admission, April 16, 1953, exactly 11 years ago; date of examination, May 1, 1953, with regard to a boy by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have initialed a copy of this report for identification purposes, Doctor. Would you initial it here next to my initials.

(Witness complies.)

(Photostatic copy of document entitled "Youth House Psychiatrist's Report" marked "Exhibit 1.")

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you read the report and tell us if that is the report that you prepared at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right, that is it. Interesting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at the report that you made at that time?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies." Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On page 1, at the very beginning of the report, you wrote at that time, did you not, "This 13-year-old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy."

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the last page of the report there is a section entitled "Summary for Probation Officer's Report," is there not?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, did you not, "We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy?"

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. It contradicts my recollection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. As you now read your report--and it is perfectly understandable that it is something that might not be remembered 11 years after the event; I have no recollection of what I was doing 11 years ago.

Dr. HARTOGS. I did not know that I made this ambiguous recommendation.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you read this report and reflect on this report and on the boy, Oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the seminar or are you convinced that it was Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; that was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Oswald?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would not appear from this report that you found any indication in the character of Lee Oswald at that time that would indicate this possible violent outburst, is there?

Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't mention it in the report, and I wouldn't recall it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you would have found it, you would have mentioned it in the report?

Dr. HARTOGS. I would have mentioned it; yes. I just implied it with the diagnosis of passive-aggressive. It means that we are dealing here with a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade aggression hostility. I mean this is what I thought was quite clear. I did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact, as we read through the report, there is no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially dangerous" in the report.

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know where she has it from, but these are my words. I use it in other reports, but here it is not.

Mr. LIEBELER. "Passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in occurrence, are they not amongst people?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is not so common. It is the least common of the three personality traits. It is either a passive-dependent child or an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. The passive-aggressive one is the least common.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly what the passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves, what do they indicate?

Dr. HARTOGS. They indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile tendencies toward others?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes. But usually in a passive-aggressive individual the aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes, this can happen. I said here that his fantasy life turned around the topics of omnipotence and power. He said also that "I dislike everybody," which is quite interesting, I think, also pertinent.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated that his mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described as such-and-such. That would indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the mother?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right. I did not see the mother personally, but the information I have from the Youth House social worker's report.

Mr. LIEBELER. You indicated in the second sentence of the summary for the probation officer's report, "No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not?

Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say that "No finding of psychotic mental changes could be made"?

Dr. HARTOGS. This child was not suffering from delusions and hallucinations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you couple that with the concept of neurological impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality?

Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances of Oswald's home environment here in New York at the time he came?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that. If I were to tell you now that this boy came to New York with his mother, his father having died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and that they lived with the brother here in Manhattan on 92d Street for a short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the Bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department store here in New York or in Brooklyn, and the boy apparently found difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed differently, being from Texas, they lived apparently on the Grand Concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a generally middle-class Jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not dress in levis or quite so casually as Oswald did; that he was given some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the people did in New York, he spoke with a southern Texas accent and did not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report?

Dr. HARTOGS. No; I would not say. This was not the personality disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or conditioning; this was more deeper going. A personality pattern disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. It is not the result of recent conditioning.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reading your report, are you able to form an opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy?

Dr. HARTOGS. I mentioned it, I think, in the report, the lack of a father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved mother. Yes; I think these are the three factors.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the President?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you haven't already talked about?

Dr. HARTOGS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the report at the end of the deposition. I want to thank you very much for giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the Commission we want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. Thanks very much, Doctor.

Dr. HARTOGS. Okay.

"This 13 year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to Youth House for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is concerned. This is his first contact with the law.

"He is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely talking about himself and his feelings. He likes _the_ give the impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the effort of communicating. It was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of _awkwardness_ and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits. Lee told us: 'I don't want a friend and I don't like to talk to people.' He describes himself as stubborn and according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' Strongly resistive and negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at.

"Lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. His abstract thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. No retardation in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school. Lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the television all day long. He dislikes to play with others or to face the learning situation in school. On the other hand he claims that he is 'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. The discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional discouragement.

"Lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was born. Two older brothers are presently in the United States Army--while the mother supports herself and Lee as an insurance broker. This occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision of Lee and to make him attend school regularly. Lee is intensely dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. Lee claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food for supper. On such occasions she leaves it to Lee to prepare some food with what he can find in the kitchen. He feels that his mother rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. He expressed the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. Lee has vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power, through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and frustrations. He did not enjoy being _together_ with other children and when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to _the one_ of girls--he answered--'I dislike everybody.' His occupational goal is to join the Army. His mother was interviewed by the Youth House social worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to understand Lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. She does not understand that Lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a complete absence of any real family life. She seemed to be interested enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and help as regards her own difficulties and her management of Lee.

"Neurological examination remained essentially negative with the exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting from a mastoidectomy in 1946. History of convulsions and accidental injuries to the skull was denied. Family history is negative for mental disease.

"_Summary for Probation Officer's Report_:

"This 13-year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school--which brought him into Youth House. No finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. Lee has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' Lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted mother. Although Lee denies that he is in need of any _other_ form of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression that Lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into group psychotherapy. We arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. At the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. If this plan does not work out favorably and Lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy. The Big Brother movement could be undoubtedly of tremendous value in this case and Lee should be urged to join the organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the PAL or YMCA of his neighborhood."

TESTIMONY OF EVELYN GRACE STRICKMAN SIEGEL

The testimony of Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel was taken at 2:39 p.m., on April 17, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Siegel, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the Commission has promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he or she is required to give testimony. I know you didn't get 3 days' notice of this, but each witness also has the power to waive that notice, and I assume that you will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony since you are here. Is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to advise you also that the rules provide that if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your own expense, at such time as the Commission releases the transcripts, releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you wish. You don't have counsel here, and I assume you do not wish it.

Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I do not wish it. Will I be advised when the transcripts are released?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. The Commission understands that you were working as a social worker in 1953 and 1954, at which time Lee Harvey Oswald and his mother lived here in New York City. Before we go into the details of that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Evelyn Grace Strickman Siegel.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mrs. SIEGEL. 1347 River Road, Teaneck.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mrs. SIEGEL. New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. And am I correct in understanding that you did work in New York as a social worker?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working as a social worker?

Mrs. SIEGEL. In March of 1950.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you continue in that work?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I'm still working as a social worker.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the city?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; on a part-time basis.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mrs. SIEGEL. A.B., Hunter College; M.S., Columbia University, School of Social Work.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in 1953, at the time that you did have contact with the Oswalds, you had been doing social work for about 3 years; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. For whom did you work as a social worker?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still working for Youth House?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I'm not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you begin working for Youth House and when did you terminate your employment with Youth House?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I began working for them in January of 1952, and I left in August--well, I left Youth House for Girls, which is part of the same institution setup, in August of 1958.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you describe for us briefly the nature of the Youth House as it existed in 1953?

Mrs. SIEGEL. In what aspect?

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of institution was it? What kind of people went there? What was done with them there? Will you tell me?

Mrs. SIEGEL. It was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to Youth House for a brief period of diagnostic study. Upon their reappearance in court, so far as I understood it, those children who had been assigned for diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from Youth House, which was given to the judge.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a report was this? What was in it? What did it say?

Mrs. SIEGEL. A full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the Youth House psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the Youth House psychiatrist. All this material was then typed up and sent to court.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the Youth House psychiatrist?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Dr. Renatus Hartogs.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Dr. Hartogs personally interview each boy, or were there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and reported, do you know?

Mrs. SIEGEL. First of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by a psychiatrist or a social worker. Also, the caseload was shared from time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of Youth House, not by Dr. Hartogs alone.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Incorporated into the social worker's report was a report from those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors, so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those would be given to the social workers; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And used as a basis for the social worker's report?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Not as a basis for it but incorporated into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as a general proposition, the reports of people from the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social worker; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any contact during the course of your work as a social worker for Youth House with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. SIEGEL. After the President's assassination, the name meant nothing to me. As the biographies in the papers started to appear, and it was said that this boy was in Youth House in 1953, I believe it was, I had a vague stirring of memory, and I then said to my husband that somehow I have a mental picture of this youngster. At the time I attributed him not to me but to another worker. I somehow thought that he was assigned to another worker. But I had a picture of what he looked like, and the only reason that I think I remember him is that he was from Texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that was different from most of the children I saw, and he wore blue jeans, which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. And that was all I remembered about it. I remembered absolutely nothing about him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your recollection of Lee Oswald is still the same as it was at that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Sitting in the corner of my office, a slim, skinny little boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is to say, you have not been able to refresh your recollection?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And improve it at all?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since the----

Mrs. SIEGEL. No. I must have seen between 400 and 450 boys a year in those days. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to his mother at all?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not. I don't even know if I saw her. I am terribly curious to see my report again.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you know Dr. Hartogs?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, we were associated over a period of from 1952 to 1958--6 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen him since that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; we don't see each other socially at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't spoken to him?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the Oswald case; is that right?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I haven't seen him since I left Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that from time to time the psychiatrist, Dr. Hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the psychologists and other employees of Youth House?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I don't remember that Dr. Hartogs gave the seminars. We all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. I remember them vividly. I was a participant, myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. I didn't mean to characterize Dr. Hartogs' role as being the sole role.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there were seminars?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, there were seminars. Certainly. I misunderstood you. Yes; there were seminars which took place weekly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection that Lee Oswald was the subject of one of these seminars?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what the reason for Oswald's being remanded to Youth House was?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I only read in the paper that it was truancy.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no independent recollection about it otherwise at all?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled "Youth House, Social Worker's Report," which is dated Bronx, May 7, 1953, referring to case No. 26996. This report indicates that the social worker involved was Evelyn Strickman, which would at that time have been you; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And still is?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you this document, and tell me if that is the report which you prepared in connection with your work with Lee Harvey Oswald. Are you able to state whether or not that is the report you prepared?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is indubitably mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. These reports were prepared shortly after your contact with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of the interview, were they not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he was still at Youth House.

Mr. LIEBELER. The point being that the report would accurately reflect the interview that you had both with Lee Oswald and with his mother?

Mrs. SIEGEL. As accurately as I could; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was prepared on or about the time that you conducted the interview, was it not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Correct, yes; and shortly afterward.

(Document marked "Exhibit 1.")

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Evelyn Strickman Siegel, April 17, 1964, and I have initialed it for purposes of identification. I would ask if you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking about the same thing.

(Witness complies.)

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another report, which upon examination you will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic copies which I have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are.

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is my report. Just a minute. This is what I dictated into the record before I pulled from it the essential material which should go into the report to the court.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your actual contact with the boy and with the mother?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one you have in your hand?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other personnel; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the document to which we have just been referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey--Charge: Truancy," and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of 7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman" and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials--does it not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She read it also?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And we will mark the document Exhibit No. 2.

(Document marked "Exhibit 2.")

Mrs. SIEGEL. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an "E" like that. I don't know who did that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question, however, that this is the report prepared by you?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation into the record. I know--that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Sure. [Witness complies.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit 1 consists of six pages; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report which you prepared in connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed so that you could add anything other than that which is already set forth in the written report which you prepared at that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I can't add a thing to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say after reviewing the report that you prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in 1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of violence?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not prepared to say.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the material set forth in your report; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; I would say that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I am sorry, there is nothing I can add.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Not at all. It is a real tragedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Siegel.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; not at all. Thank you. Goodbye.

TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO

The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot do it at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice.

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement since you are here; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa Ana, Calif., for a period of time.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank?

Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number?

Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed?

Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, 71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. That is what that last 6 in that digit means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic training took care of that.

December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1962?

Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that?

Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line battery, Delta Battery.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook.

Mr. LIEBELER. First cook?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am working.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to establish your proficiency in the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military records.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language school.

Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where?

Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's no record of it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and my mother lives in California.

Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school.

Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to school in P.S. No. 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California?

Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the--about the 11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFI.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you then join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that?

Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2-1/2 months, and I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico?

Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My mother came when she was about 13.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now?

Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? Do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi or Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school in Jacksonville and Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military Occupation Specialty. Is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of aircraft running into problems.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort in the course of your work at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature of your work, you actually worked in a control room?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you would then challenge that aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself?

Mr. DELGADO. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft requesting it to identify itself were classified information?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter----

Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the capabilities of the radars, as I said before.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high----

Mr. LIEBELER. And how high----

Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets knew these things?

Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication charts, which is also a secret.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts?

Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?

Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This is all before Christmas, before I took my leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958?

Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't associate with too many people.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really developed until I went on leave----oh, yes. At the time he was--he was commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, and they all took over." It was a big joke.

So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he got transferred to mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts?

Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men----

Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.

He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified information that I know of out or see anybody about it.

As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use?

Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-1's

Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times?

Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in good shape, clean?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre. He always got gigged for his rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting gigged for one thing or another.

Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was basically a man that complained quite frequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do something?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oz?

Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't understand it like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately?

Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the time he came to Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a couple of guys stationed with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was two of them stationed with him overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else overseas other than Atsugi?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines for a while?

Mr. DELGADO. No; not that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines?

Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best firer on the line.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum----

Mr. DELGADO. Minimum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rank?

Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one?

Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.

Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely?

Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets.

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular lines; then we went to the pits, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in the line from you when you fired?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one?

Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I didn't want no competition.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won?

Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just five?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you?

Mr. DELGADO. I was--I shot about 192. I came in about third.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported----

Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the man down the pit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's score could have been fixed up; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both scorecards to correspond with each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been interviewed prior to this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times.

Mr. LIEBELER. About five times?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times?

Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a Spanish interpreter.

Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you speak?

Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man from England the way he speaks pure English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he spoke to you in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty in interpreting my Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that you weren't very proficient in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they talked to you? Were they----

Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two different fellows.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow, and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this Spanish guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you was when?

Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after Kennedy's assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November 22--I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice that you have just told us about?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the score.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a good rifle shot; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in the pool; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty high; that's about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at the base--is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the Spanish-speaking man was there?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time they came up.

Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a pot, but that is the same thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; pool.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning."

Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not come close to winning?

Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I always had an expert badge on me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the carbine--rather, this is the M-14, the new one.

Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be reflected in your military records, would they not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 files also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records. That's why they are so strict.

Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you were more than lucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You just have to take your chances.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like this?

Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.

Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other along.

You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him?

Mr. DELGADO. Just to qualify him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even in connection with this?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took second place?

Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I never got real close to any of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be a mistake; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been?

Mr. DELGADO. The address?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road--30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the Spanish-speaking agent was present?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you?

Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in Spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in Spanish into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him.

You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we make our mistake when we go--I think when we go abroad, because we try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, and that is not going to do.

If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone about doing it.

Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and----

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff.

As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of some sort, he couldn't hold his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and telling them something.

And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to answer him. I told him go see them.

After a while he told me he was in contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a--one of his, you know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the time. He always had money. That's why.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say?

Mr. DELGADO. He always had money, you know, he never spent it. He was pretty tight.

So then one particular instance, I was in the train station in Santa Ana, Calif., and Oswald comes in, on a Friday night. I usually make it every Friday night to Los Angeles and spend the weekend. And he is on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some people in Los Angeles. I didn't bother questioning him.

We rode into Los Angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small chatter, and once we got to Los Angeles I went my way and he went his.

I came to find out later on he had come back Saturday. He didn't stay like we did, you know, come back Sunday night, the last train.

Very seldom did he go out. At one time he went with us down to Tijuana, Mexico.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into that, tell me all that you can remember about Oswald's contact with the Cuban Consulate.

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I stated to these FBI men, he had one visitor; after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. It was a man, because I got the call from the MP guard shack, and they gave me a call that Oswald had a visitor at the front gate. This man had to be a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. So I had to find somebody to relieve Oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, 2 hours talking, I guess, and he came back. I don't know who the man was or what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing when he came back. He never mentioned who he was, nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did he talk to him, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. About an hour and a half, 2 hours.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he supposed to be on duty that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he had the guy relieve him, calling me about every 15 minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and Oswald was posted to walk 4 hours and he only walked about an hour and a half before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time to visit, because it was after 6, and it must have been close to 10 o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or otherwise, could get on post up to 9 o'clock at night. After 9 o'clock, if you are not military you can't get on that post. So it was after 9 o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night.

I don't think it could be his brother or father because I never knew that he had one, you know; in fact the only one I knew was a sick mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his mother was sick.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never asked Oswald who this fellow was that he talked to?

Mr. DELGADO. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did the shifts of duty run? This was a guard duty that he was on; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did those shifts run?

Mr. DELGADO. They ran, let's see, from 12 to 4, 4 to 8, 8 to 12, 12 to 4, 4 to 8, like that; and he was roughly on 8-to-10 shift, you know. Must have been about 9 o'clock when the guy called.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 8-to-12 shift?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and I had to relieve another guard and put him on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you connect this visit that Oswald had at that time with the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Personally; I did; because I thought it funny for him to be receiving a caller at such a late date--time. Also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from home, because I made it a policy, I used to pick up the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did I see one for him. But every so often, after he started to get in contact with these Cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a Russian paper, and I asked him if it was, you know, a Commie paper--they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this--and he said, "No, it's not Communist; it's a White Russian. To me that was Greek, you know, White Russian, so I guess he is not a Communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. It was a newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he received that prior to the time he contacted the Cuban consulate; did he not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he also started receiving letters, you know, and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little--like church, things we get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were they written in Spanish, any of them, do you know?

Mr. DELGADO. Not that I can recall; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe that these things came to Oswald from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, I took it for granted that they did after I seen the envelope, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was on this envelope that made you think that?

Mr. DELGADO. Something like a Mexican eagle, with a big, impressive seal, you know. They had different colors on it, red and white; almost looked like our colors, you know. But I can't recall the seal. I just knew it was in Latin, United, something like that. I couldn't understand. It was Latin.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know for sure whether it was from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But he had told me prior, just before I found that envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and one time he offered to show it to me, but I wasn't much interested because at the time we had work to do, and I never did ask to see that paper again, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what his correspondence with the Cuban consulate was about?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the conversation that you had about going over to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. No. The only thing he told me was that right after he had this conversation with the Cuban people was that he was going to--once he got out of the service he was going to Switzerland, he was going to a school, and this school in Switzerland was supposed to teach him in 2 years--in 6 months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over here in 2 years, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you the name of the school?

Mr. DELGADO. No; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far as I knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation that you and Oswald had about going over in Cuba and helping Castro was just barracks talk?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't seriously consider----

Mr. DELGADO. No; but that's when I started getting scared. He started actually making plans, and how we would go about going to Cuba, you know, and where we would apply to go to Cuba and the people to contact if we wanted to go, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. So you got the impression that he started to get serious about going to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. And about this time Castro started changing colors, so I wasn't too keen on that idea, myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Oswald about this change in Castro's attitude and his approach?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same reason I told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't getting the money from Cuba that we were before.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald basically took the position that you were getting a distorted view of Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was happening in Cuba. We were getting the distorted facts.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no definite way of knowing how much correspondence Oswald received from the Cuban consulate, do you?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he had received some correspondence?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether the Russian newspaper that he got came from the Cuban consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was getting that way before he even started corresponding with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald ever received any books or pamphlets or materials in any language other than Russian--aside from English, of course?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He had one book that was English, Das Kapital. I think it was Russian, a book, like I said. I go by Russian when it's big block letters. And he had one book like that. He spoke Russian pretty good, so I understand.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you understand that?

Mr. DELGADO. He tried to teach me some Russian. He would put out a whole phrase, you know. In return for my teaching him Spanish, he would try to teach me Russian. But it's a tongue twister.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any understanding of the Russian language?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Basically I wasn't interested in it. In order to learn a language, I think you have to be motivated. You have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and I had no need to learn Russian. And just the reverse of him. He wanted to learn Spanish. He had some idea of using Spanish later on. I'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Cuba, you mean?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that he has been in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty in getting into Cuba. They would accept him real fast. The fact that he was in Russia. Now, all these years in Russia, he could have come over to Cuba and learned some doctrine. That's where he got his ideas to start this Fair Play for Cuba Committee down in Louisiana. That must have been supported by Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know that he was involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Louisiana?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of his arrest.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge of that, though?

Mr. DELGADO. No. In one of the news pictures I seen him distributing pamphlets out in the street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald after----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in Germany until approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to--I knew that he was over there going to school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never did follow through. There was too much redtape.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why, but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not?

Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the Soviet Union before I got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. In November. As--when I got back, I saw the pictures all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the investigation there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that he was in Berlin, going to school?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this idea?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the Soviet Union?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict, you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to study there. He wanted to study psychology.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was--one was in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland--he couldn't have gone to Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very well have gone to the one in Berlin?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train him their way.

(Short recess.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they would train him their way?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said.

Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured this out for yourself?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. He could meet the average people from the streets and hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be understood. That's not too clear, is it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a 117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music, things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and things like that, he was a great fan.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or anything like that.

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how well Oswald could speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean?

Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a written test?

Mr. DELGADO. I told him off the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that?

Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that. That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far as basic conversation and debate; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him?

Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak Spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. This was small talk when we were talking Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo----

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home.

Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish.

Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom----

Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English?

Mr. DELGADO. In English.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple of other fellows went to Tijuana.

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was Spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him just what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your outfit?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Jersey?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?

Mr. DELGADO. Jones.

Mr. LIEBELER. Jones?

Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating?

Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C Battery?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta Battery.

Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do?

Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also. And there's another fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've teached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that. Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same amount of Spanish as Oswald knew?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much?

Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can use, and if you use them, let's see--how can I--well, the pasts and present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"--"I'm going to the theatre"--you know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way of saying it. The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase. I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that you use it now and not later?" Things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to put them in a sentence logically?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that?

Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the show I will go, or to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain.

Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned the Spanish words?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas known?

Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and made himself understood.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the kind you buy out there for about $2.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You mentioned before he spoke Russian.

Mr. DELGADO. Russian.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that time or highly proficient?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could speak it also.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do remember, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German?

Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been to Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian?

Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other language to any extent; he just used a few words?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was speaking.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words?

Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?

Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at Santa Ana too?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then?

Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught him--I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing that is happening now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to get you to change your story?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the proposition that Oswald understood Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say.

Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be at a tie with the Cuban government.

Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you get about the agents?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I am concerned.

If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6 months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me, I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months' time he could hold a conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself were not good at Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents' attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That is no practical use for him, you know.

I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a Spanish fellow--you are in Juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what I teach these guys, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and understand them; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking agent was there?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your Spanish to express yourself completely?

Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can I say it?--you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in Puerto Rico?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the United States?

Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then?

Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many times Oswald went to Los Angeles?

Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just once?

Mr. DELGADO. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as far as I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one occasion?

Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these people.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never asked him. It wasn't my business, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban Consulate?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of some sort.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on weekends at other times?

Dr. DELGADO. No; not that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only thing that you know----

Mr. DELGADO. That I am sure of was that one particular incident, one particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one occasion that you can remember; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me that, and I believe I gave him the same answer I have given you now, because the other time they had two men, that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else, you know. I was sitting in the old man's office, the commanding officer's office, you know, and I wasn't too at ease there either.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did not go with you to Los Angeles on every other week or anything like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No, no. I went every week to Los Angeles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Every week?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; every weekend that I was off, you know, roughly three weekends a month.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Oswald only accompanied you on one occasion?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of your own knowledge of any other times that he went into Los Angeles?

Mr. DELGADO. No. The only outstanding thing I can remember was that Oswald was a casual dresser. By that I mean he would go with a sport shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that Oswald enjoyed classical music; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he would often talk at length about the opera; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. I tried to be a listener, but I wasn't too interested.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to be interested in girls?

Mr. DELGADO. No; not to my knowledge. He didn't have a girl friend write him, I know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. And when we had no duty, him and I used to go to the show, you know, 9 times out of 10 I ended up paying for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about sports, did he ever show any interest in sports?

Mr. DELGADO. No. That is something I would like to bring up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. DELGADO. May I go on the record, because there was a statement I read in Life Magazine?

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. DELGADO. And it's erroneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did it say?

Mr. DELGADO. It is quoting a Lieutenant Cupenack, and he made a statement there in Life, last month, I believe it was. He made a statement saying he was Oswald's commanding officer, Oswald was on the football team. He was on the football team, that is the only true fact in the whole statement that he made. Also that he had a run-in with a captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he went off the team.

To begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant colonel. Lieutenant Cupenack was a supply officer. He seldom came in contact with Oswald, and when he did, it was only when Oswald was on details or when Lieutenant Cupenack had duty that particular night in the war room when Oswald was on. And as far as a captain being on the football team, the only captain we had was in the S-3 section where we worked, and he was too old to play football.

Lieutenant Cupenack played football. He was good. He was tackle. I remember I played against him plenty of times myself. And why Oswald left, I don't know. I don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did come out for football though?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents about this?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they ask about it?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I didn't tell them. I just couldn't see why a big agency like Life would not check into the story and let something like this, you know, get out. I mean it's all well, you know, to go along and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which article in Life Magazine this was? Was this the issue----

Mr. DELGADO. The big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the picture of him in the Philippines, and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one that they had Oswald's picture on the cover, holding the rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And right now he is an instructor of philosophy or psychology in Columbia University, I think it is, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. This lieutenant?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. I just thought it funny, him saying that he was commanding officer over Oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with Oswald. And you have been in the Army, a supply officer hardly ever comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald did not show any interest in sports?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I told them he didn't show any interest in sports.

Mr. LIEBELER. In spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the football team?

Mr. DELGADO. That is just one example, the football. But he never went out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you know. And myself, I didn't go out for sports either, just football and handball; and that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald a good football player?

Mr. DELGADO. Mediocre, he was so-so.

Mr. LIEBELER. What position did he play?

Mr. DELGADO. He played tackle or end, you know, never fullback, quarterback or anything like that, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of football teams were these?

Mr. DELGADO. Flag. Flag football.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is, the different companies or batteries?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, when Oswald went out for the team, it was in the battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for competition.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this regular football or just touch football.

Mr. DELGADO. Flag football.

Mr. LIEBELER. Touch football?

Mr. DELGADO. Touch football.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go back and tell us all that you can remember about this trip to Tijuana?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, it happened on one of our weekends off.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was it, approximately?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, you got me there. I would say about May, something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. In 1959.

Mr. DELGADO. 1959; right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember whether your trip to Tijuana was before the rifle qualification or after?

Mr. DELGADO. After.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much after?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, about 3 to 4 weeks. Within the same month period, because we were about just gotten paid, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Go ahead.

Mr. DELGADO. And these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, I can't remember their names, like I told the agents, I don't know why because they worked in a different department than I did there, never had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to Tijuana; so I had the car, and they asked me if I would take them down there. So I told them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, I will go for a free trip. So in the process of getting ready I asked Oswald if he wanted to go there, you know, and I have asked him to go to L.A. with me plenty of times and he never bothered going--I said, "Oswald, let's go to Tijuana."

He said, "Okay, fine." Like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of us were, in casual clothes.

We went down to Tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and all of a sudden he says, "Let's go to the Flamingo." So it didn't register, and I didn't bother to ask him, "Where is this Flamingo? How did you know about this place?" I assumed he had been there before, because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to get to this place, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the Flamingo?

Mr. DELGADO. Flamingo, right. And as far as I know it's still there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this outside of Tijuana?

Mr. DELGADO. It's outside of Tijuana. Have you been over there?

Mr. LIEBELER. No.

Mr. DELGADO. No. Well, it's the street before the bullring. You have got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about 1 mile, 2 miles out into the boondocks, the country. It's out in the country, about 2 miles away from the center of the town.

When we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he had known anybody, I told them no; the way it looked, he just had been there before, but nobody recognized him. The only things I can remember, like I told these agents, were the two contrasting bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have been at least 6-foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of these clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was really nice, a nice place.

Mr. LIEBELER. The bartender was a homosexual?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that apparent to you?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big girl. She was a good-looking doll. And that's about all.

Nothing eventful happened there. There is where the girls were telling stories, you know. They got these girls, you pick them up there, you know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about the same time I laughed, and he understood what they were saying.

Mr. LIEBELER. They spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did anything else happen at the Flamingo that you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. No; during the night though I had lost my wallet. That was when I went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the M.P. gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. I had to put in for a new I.D. card and what have you.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in Tijuana?

Mr. DELGADO. In Tijuana.

Mr. LIEBELER. The shore patrol had an office across----

Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right at the border?

Mr. DELGADO. Right at the border they have an M.P. shack, right in the customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money I had was gone.

Like I said, these two Negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did have to put in for a new I.D. card; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay in Tijuana itself or did you stay across the border?

Mr. DELGADO. No; we stayed in downtown Tijuana.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where?

Mr. DELGADO. Right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as I knew, Oswald had a girl. I wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me like he had one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any interest in the jai-alai games?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You stayed over only one night; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Saturday night?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Sunday you drove back to the base?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything about his trip down there, his experiences, that you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. No; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. The way of life down there was so poor, you know. They shouldn't allow a town like that to exist, things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald said that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention to the FBI the fact that Oswald had a copy of Das Kapital?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that in your testimony previously too?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other books that you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. He had Mein Kampf, Hitler's bible, but that was circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did I know he was reading Das Kapital. I said, well, the man had the book, and he said that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it.

So I told him in one instance I walked into the room and he was laying the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know.

He says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it.

Well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to put it down and greet whoever it is; and then I assume he is going to assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. It's the only logical explanation.

They didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did I actually see him reading the book, which I couldn't unless I sneaked up on the guy, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the FBI agent you are talking about?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that when you would walk into the room Oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and then he had this other book. I am still trying to find out what it is. It's about a farm, and about how all the animals take over and make the farmer work for them. It's really a weird book, the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny. But he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running the whole farm and the farmer was working for them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that what Oswald explained to you?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI about this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they know the name of the book?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI did not know the name of the book?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you want to know the name of the book?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is called the Animal Farm. It is by George Orwell.

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't tell me. I asked him for the thing, but he wouldn't tell me. I guess he didn't know. The Animal Farm. Did you read it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. Is it really like that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there is only one thing that Oswald did not mention apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing that the capitalist had done before. Didn't Oswald tell you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made the farmer work for them. The Animal Farm. Is that a socialist book?

Mr. LIEBELER. No.

Mr. DELGADO. That is just the way you interpret it; right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I think so. It is actually supposed to be quite an anti-Communist book.

Mr. DELGADO. Is it really?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. You and Oswald finally began to cool off toward each other a little bit; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I said, his ideas about Castro kept on persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being shown that Castro was reverting to a Communist way of government, you know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point came about when there was this one corporal Batista had in his army, very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in charge of mass murdering all these people, that Batista was supposed to have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's statement with no proof whatsoever.

So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," you know.

I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they started executing these people on just mere word of mouth.

Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher----

Mr. LIEBELER. More highly?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I come back he was already gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he actually got out of the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get away from Oswald before you went on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be under another guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never got mad at anybody?

Mr. DELGADO. Not physically mad, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted?

Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to the other huts.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before this question of your transfer ever came up?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let us review that for a moment.

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately----

Mr. DELGADO. 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave?

Mr. DELGADO. What?

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and left, or did you go on leave and then come back?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I went on leave and then came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come back to New York?

Mr. DELGADO. To New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them?

Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them about August.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July?

Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good weather.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually transferred to another hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive of that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up, and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a hardship discharge, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the Marines together about going to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never did?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least $800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to go through.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was?

Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los Angeles--the month, you want?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it----

Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle practice?

Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I don't think we had any political discussions at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these incidents, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after your leave before you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company. He was in a different quonset hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald "Comrade," or anything like that, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that?

Mr. DELGADO. Call.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?

Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No. Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get mixed up in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him Oswaldovich?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too?

Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit.

Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have too many close friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't?

Mr. DELGADO. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because he liked classical music and good books, now.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports and that sort of thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped out, Oswald the first one he seen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that?

Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who?

Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who might have known Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents, Holbrook or--something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a Corporal Botelho?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate California, a potato rancher.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these people?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not the right make--he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember mentioning him to the FBI agents?

Mr. DELGADO. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was Call?

Mr. DELGADO. At the time--at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. Corporal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Private.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight private?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't been promoted?

Mr. DELGADO. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he was court-martialed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who knew him from overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for?

Mr. DELGADO. No. After all this came out later, I read about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area?

Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the war room.

Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching----

Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were passing notes back and forth.

Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to talk, he would hand a note to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time?

Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men.

Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who had the aircraft on their scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes?

Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on the plotting board.

Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft.

Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there. Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks.

Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to Los Angeles every other week.

Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question about that at all?

Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he?

Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida. His parents were boatbuilders. He owned--his family owned a big boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them----

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?

Mr. DELGADO. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller, and he was also our platoon officer.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk?

Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant Lusk?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?

Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away.

Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said, "You're getting as bad as Oz."

But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on restriction at the same time.

Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be court-martialed for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?

Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him. We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you back.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say?

Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in trouble like that?

Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic. And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two guys defected.

Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it was a year later that these two guys from the United States, working for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me, and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing just how you go about doing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also defected to Russia at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year afterwards?

Mr. DELGADO. A year later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men did defect?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get there, now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States into Mexico into Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something to that effect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection isn't too clear on that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination that Oswald went to Mexico?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now?

Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him to cross over into Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to Cuba.

Mr. DELGADO. Or had any----

Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going to Cuba.

Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are confusing this as something that Oswald said before?

Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route was done in 1960 or 1961.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion?

Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist. That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was religious.

Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a Maker.

Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about religion?

Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school, you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He himself never went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever quote from the Bible or anything like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever make fun of the Bible?

Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men, you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all. Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show how wrong it was?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and I told them he was an atheist. That's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look silly?

Mr. DELGADO. No. That was typical of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he did that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the Socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. How did he phrase it--everything was common or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good thing?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people. If they worked for the military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning everything, and everybody worked for the state.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military, and like socialism, and still hate the military?

Mr. DELGADO. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that told him what to do?

Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, or he thought to be--he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, he wouldn't like anything you told him to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military?

(Short recess.)

(Question read.)

Mr. DELGADO. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's----

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that somebody should give orders like this and----

Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. From your association with him that he was intending to do any such thing?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that he planned to go to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before----

Mr. DELGADO. To Switzerland.

Mr. LIEBELER. To school in Switzerland?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once?

Mr. DELGADO. Once.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into any trouble? Do you remember that?

Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina would be the next best."

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he intended to go to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition treaties?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc, Roussel----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R. Roussel, Jr.?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was from New Orleans, right?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, right outside of LSU.

Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from Baton Rouge?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?

Mr. DELGADO. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you know, university--campus.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call--Call was discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from New Orleans?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc. Murray? What is his first name?

Mr. DELGADO. Don.

Mr. LIEBELER. Don?

Mr. DELGADO. Don.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your recollection on that?

Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I seen Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe Murray's command of Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, you know, that kind of talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to teach----

Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there, so we didn't have that much time together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on the post for a while after he came to----

Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and then his wife--he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call him Lee or----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name?

Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I didn't even know his name was Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in any kind of real program to teach him Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he wanted interpreted, that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in your outfit?

Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, Charley Brown, but I can't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. I gave them the name of who I thought--felt who the one or two colored fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the dark.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the FBI now?

Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--Watts, that is the name I gave him, not Brown.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his estimation.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were as smart as Oswald was?

Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The officers?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and politics.

Mr. LIEBELER. He used to enjoy doing this to the others, I could imagine.

Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just walk off, you know, and leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional beer. I never seen him drunk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any homosexual tendencies?

Mr. DELGADO. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two fellows they caught.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or did you ever discuss that with him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you know, and he'd argue that point.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was. Very seldom clowned around, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he had much of a sense of humor?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you know [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced?

Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS

The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission; and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.

And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people involved, who became involved in that tragic event.

One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our information that you had some contact with him while you were in the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089.

Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records, are December 18, 1954--that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what and who you are right at the moment.

Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And with a family?

Mr. POWERS. Of two children.

Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American?

Mr. POWERS. That's also correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you born?

Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers?

Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise?

Mr. POWERS. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first arose when I was en route to Jacksonville--rather from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine in charge.

Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time?

Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that?

Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them----

Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it.

Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.

Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping and Receiving Station, Keesler----

Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May 1956.

Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry, 2d of May 1957.

Mr. JENNER. 1957?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."

And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these marines.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in fact it was May 2, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. I mean previous to this May 2d order.

Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not?

Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to----

Mr. POWERS. Keesler----

Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in Mississippi, Biloxi?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And who were the others?

Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do.

Mr. JENNER. Read it, please.

Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?

Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694.

Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d?

Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schand, is it? Spell it, please.

Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you about.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did.

Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time?

Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"?

Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from then on were--ran relatively parallel?

Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.

I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi?

Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this attachment to Keesler.

I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age?

Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth?

Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was----

Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October 18, 1939?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any question about him?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful?

Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most of us.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given?

Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2 days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. So we reported for duty on that particular day.

Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, give his training, in Keesler Field.

Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was similar; it was the same in context.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men?

Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively parallel then?

Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in the classes that we did attend.

Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and warning operator course?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other aircraft warning devices?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military Occupation Specialty?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of--excuse me--coming out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and then after--

Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me.

Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may be somewhat faded or dim.

And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early warning system.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler?

Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we picked up our orders to go to California.

Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day?

Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June 19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July 1957." This is when we were--2400 hours--we were supposed to report in the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would be--June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20----

Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days.

Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then proceeded to California by commercial vehicle.

Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time?

Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was he a loner while he was at Keesler Field?

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to use.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general personality would alienate the group against him.

And to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come to a point that I don't--that he would come to a point in his life where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as I was concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were concerned, and I think possibly he was an individual that would come to a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other.

Mr. JENNER. On what?

Mr. POWERS. On a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, this is a personal opinion.

And I think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were in there in Mississippi.

He was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything.

He could easily be led, an individual that was influenced I think by education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an intelligent individual.

He had the name of Ozzie Rabbit, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Of what?

Mr. POWERS. Ozzie Rabbit.

Mr. JENNER. Ozzie Rabbit?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; now, this goes back to what I had said before that he was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. He would take the easy way out to avoid conflict. But then again, I'm trying to recall this in my mind, and I'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that is really true or something that I want to recall----

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I would like----

Mr. POWERS. About him.

Mr. JENNER. In your testimony, do the best you can to give me your impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that took place on the 22d of November, and what you read about this and thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report from you as we possibly can.

Mr. POWERS. I realize that. And this is why I say I'm not sure that it's really true or something that you want to remember. It seems to me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. You men were quartered together in the same barracks?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, in the same wing of this particular barracks. They separated the Marines from the Air Force as much as possible, although we did have Air Force personnel in the room with us, two in the room.

It seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a squabble and I can't recall what it was over, and this was the first time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, I can't recall, but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that something came up at this particular time.

He was a good student, as I recall. I can't say that he was any better than anybody else. But again, as an individual he appeared to be just as good as anybody wanted to be.

Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he finished this course seventh in a class of 30. Is that score somewhat of his ability?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say; at that time I wasn't qualified to say who was----

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the course of your studies?

Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say that either. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I did interrupt the witness when he was talking about his impression about Oswald. Would you read that back to me, please?

(Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Had he had this nickname, Ozzie Rabbit, did he acquire that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from Jacksonville to Biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at Keesler?

Mr. POWERS. I think it was attached to him at Keesler as any individual in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that most of us had with each other as individuals. We were brought together here at Keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other personally more than at any other time.

I think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind as well as the other people in the group.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to worry about him as competitively?

Mr. POWERS. I would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't any real significance attached to leadership. It was still--we were all the same rank. Of course, one being in the service longer, there was always a senior marine as far as I was concerned, and I was the marine in charge of this particular class if you--I think this is the way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and well, while at Keesler, I was promoted to corporal, which again was an advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any differentiation of privates.

I was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest relationship that we had there, I don't think there was any rank barrier or difference here.

I think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which we would get more in the infantry of the Marines. There a corporal is a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank said something.

Mr. JENNER. What was your rank when you were mustered out?

Mr. POWERS. Out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I was a sergeant.

Mr. JENNER. What gave you the impression that he had or might have had homosexual tendencies?

Mr. POWERS. Again, this is an unqualified opinion, and----

Mr. JENNER. Did you say "unqualified"?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, because obviously, I'm not qualified to say one is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their personality, I would say possibly his was similar to them in some respects.

Mr. JENNER. You found him a feminine----

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely related to other homosexuals that I had seen in my life up to that period of time.

Mr. JENNER. You said, in the course of your general statement, that your group had the impression that he might be easily led. Can you elaborate on that?

Mr. POWERS. Well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to lead. I felt--let's say that I felt he was easily led, and the group felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time he did not.

And I would say he was a group response--he was easily led; he was responsive to the group as a whole.

At the same time I felt that he was an individual such as I see today. I see individuals that they are fascinated by education, and of course, not knowing what his IQ was, and what his capacity for education was--still at the time he impressed me as an individual who was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so I would say he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own that he was an individual that you could sway.

Now, these are opinions that I have of him after being educated further myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that I'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and I think he is the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term.

I think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have.

I think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and he stood in his beliefs.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been teaching?

Mr. POWERS. This will be my third year of teaching now.

Mr. JENNER. What is the extent of your formal education beyond high school, if any?

Mr. POWERS. The extent of my formal education beyond high school was a Bachelor of Science Degree and presently working on a Master's Degree from the University, and this will either be in physical education or guidance; I'm not sure which way I'll go yet.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have your University of Minnesota education attendance after you left the Marines?

Mr. POWERS. I had 1 year at the university before going to the Marine Corps, and then I went after my service.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware when you were in the service, or this period about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school?

Mr. POWERS. Let's say I wasn't consciously aware of it. I was aware of the fact that I was one of the few boys or the individuals there that had a college education, and consequently also I had, after being in the Marines a short period of time, I had a firm belief in finishing my education.

And I think this here put--or any individual, not only myself, or any individual that had a college education, there was a number of them while I was in the Marines at that particular time that did have a college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. And I think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things of this nature, and at this particular time, I only had 1 year of college education.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any feeling with respect to Oswald, any disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further education?

Did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject?

Mr. POWERS. His opinions, is that what you're asking?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I think that the reason he was in the Marine Corps was there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, he felt this way about it. And he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he didn't care to go to school. And he'd just as soon go into the service to get out of the people's hair at home. This type of attitude.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your attention of any kind?

Mr. POWERS. No; I would not say so. There isn't anything that stays in my mind at this time.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return home and visit your folks during this----

Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Leave before you had to return? You had to be at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I gathered that you had the impression that he--during this period of time that, this leave period--that he visited New Orleans?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you brought New Orleans up, he used to--he used to go home to New Orleans from Biloxi there, as I recall again. This was only a short distance, between 50 and 71 miles, and he would go home on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on Friday, we were free as long as we were in class again on Monday morning, as I recall. And it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't in Mississippi or the Biloxi area on weekends.

I might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all weekend, and I think that you did mention New Orleans, that this possibly sticks in my mind as associated with New Orleans and him at Biloxi, Miss.

Mr. JENNER. When you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or more of you?

Mr. POWERS. As I recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at this particular period of time, I was married and my interests were somewhat different than the other fellows.

Mr. JENNER. Was your wife on the base?

Mr. POWERS. No; she was not. She was living with my parents back home in Minnesota, Owatonna. And my liberty usually consisted of going to the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, I would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, Bandoni and Brereton, they were quite close, and Camarata, that particular group, they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie around the beach, we would usually go over, and I don't recall Oswald going with us, and I don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. And this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he went to New Orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever around there.

Mr. JENNER. But even at night when you were excused from class, did he have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave card periods?

Mr. POWERS. Well, there were so many things. Normally, as I recall, it wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. Now, we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to the gym and work out or something of this nature, and I can't recall him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on Saturdays or something in the Air Force doing the inspection, and all the marines were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an Air Force inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home to New Orleans because I think it came once a month or something, and we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was anxious to go because inspection was Saturday morning, and he wanted to get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a fair statement, Mr. Powers, whether or not he went to New Orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the Biloxi area, is your impression?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully because I don't know what you mean by the "Biloxi area." At least he did not remain on the Air Force base. He left the Air Force base. Now, if he remained in Biloxi proper, the town, the community, I'm not sure.

But it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. He would be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base.

Mr. JENNER. Our records show that at the time he left Keesler to travel to El Toro, he was rated 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency. What is that? What do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure what the scale--I cannot recollect what the scale is. I think it was 5.0 is the top.

Mr. JENNER. You're right. And would 4.2 in conduct and 4.5 in proficiency be a pretty fair rating?

Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out of 30, it would be 4.5, which would be pretty good in the upper third of his class, so to speak. 4.2 couldn't be too far behind. So I would imagine on a five scale, 3.0 would be average. So 4.2 would be B plus.

Mr. JENNER. How did that compare with yours, by the way?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know what mine was.

Mr. JENNER. You don't?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't have any idea what my proficiency report was.

Mr. JENNER. I see. I take it that none of you boys traveled together to El Toro, you went by your own respective routes?

Mr. POWERS. Camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into Chicago together, and from there on, he went to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. And I continued on to Minneapolis in the plane there; there was another marine that went with us from, I think now, from Mississippi--from Biloxi into New Orleans. We went on the bus together.

Mr. JENNER. Was it one of your group?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. It was one of our group that was leaving. And I want to say, it was Bandoni----

Mr. JENNER. That's your best recollection?

Mr. POWERS. But once into New Orleans, it seems that Camarata and I--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the airport, and we continued on. Maybe there was three of us, I'm not sure. But it seems to me there was two of us, and I think we were at a movie theater, as my mind goes on. And we did run into some of the other fellows there.

Mr. JENNER. But not Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. I can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not.

Mr. JENNER. And El Toro is the Marine station----

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reporting date at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. My reporting date at El Toro was 2400, 12 July 1957.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of what Oswald did during the intervening period, that is, this leave period?

Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. Except possibly there was something that was stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned Texas and his mother. That's all that I can recollect.

Mr. JENNER. So that he might have visited his mother in Texas?

Mr. POWERS. It stays in my mind of Texas and his mother. Whether this is truly true or not, it sticks there. And what the relationship was, I don't know, or if he did visit her or when, I'm not sure. I think I was under the opinion that he was from Texas. He used to say--I want to say Dallas, but I'm not sure again if that is planted----

Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; maybe it was Fort Worth, but it was some place in Texas, but I can't say for sure with everything going; again I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of having been a boy in New Orleans up to his high school period, having lived for a while in Texas?

Mr. POWERS. Now, Texas and New Orleans are not associated in my mind. New Orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he used to go quite a bit when he was in Mississippi. But as far as, let's say, hometown, or home State, it was in my mind; it stuck it was Texas, but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is where he went.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you remain at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. We arrived the 12th of July in El Toro, Calif. This is when I reported in. Now, when I actually went overseas, it was in the August draft, I don't--to be truthful, I can't say when I went overseas. It was sometime in August, around the first of August.

Mr. JENNER. Could it have been the middle of August, August 15th?

Mr. POWERS. It's possible. I cannot say for sure.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I have no record of when I did actually.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Assuming that was the date, you were at El Toro approximately a month then?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your classification there?

Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "classification"?

Mr. JENNER. Well, our records show that Oswald was classified as a replacement trainee.

Mr. POWERS. That's probably what I was, too, a replacement trainee for overseas.

Mr. JENNER. What was Oswald's response or attitude toward higher authority?

Mr. POWERS. Up to this particular period of time, I don't think he showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what he was told and that was it.

I think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial exposure to the Marine Corps-type discipline.

Mr. JENNER. Were you with him during that period of time?

Mr. POWERS. I was with him overseas. Well, he was actually in the same unit as I was until I came home, and this is where I noticed that he had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. In other words, he took on a new personality, and now he was Oswald the man rather than Oswald the rabbit.

Mr. JENNER. This was after you boys got overseas?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think so. I think--this is when I noticed--it can be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. In other words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going to let anybody else get what he could have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything in the particular incident that you think might be helpful to the Commission during that 1-month period of time that you were at El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. At this particular time, I have no memory of the individual at all. It seems to me that he reported in after I did, I think, and this is where again something is in my mind of Texas. He said he was in Texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the most we got into--I think we got into an August draft, and I don't think he was in the same draft that I was in. I think I reported in and got in the July draft.

Now, again, I'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a different draft than I was, and we were all in the same barracks to start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late off his leave, he took an extra week or something.

It might be in my mind, I can't say for sure, but it still remains there, that he was in Texas or Texas was the area he was visiting or he took his leave in.

Mr. JENNER. Well, then, you were--you boys were shipped out from El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. For overseas?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was he on the same ship?

Mr. POWERS. Well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the same ship.

Mr. JENNER. From what port did you sail?

Mr. POWERS. In my--we left from San Diego.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the name of the ship?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't remember the name of the ship.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I uttered the name Bexar, B-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you?

Mr. POWERS. I think possibly, yes; I think it was on the Peter boats and Mike boats.

Mr. JENNER. What is a Mike boat?

Mr. POWERS. These are the terms given to these landing crafts.

Mr. JENNER. That were on the ship itself?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from.

Mr. JENNER. Now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the 21st of August, am I correct?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. From here I don't have any orders.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I think these orders are all in the group orders, and they are not given to individuals as such.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right. You went from San Diego to what port, what foreign port?

Mr. POWERS. Yokohama. Again, I'm not sure. I think it was Yokohama.

Mr. JENNER. Yokosuka rather than Yokohama?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. Yokosuka is probably the right one. I'm not sure now.

Mr. JENNER. What was the military base?

Mr. POWERS. That we reported to?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. Atsugi.

Mr. JENNER. A-t-s-u-g-i?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the Marine base?

Mr. POWERS. Navy base with Marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's primary mission is a Navy base.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were these same boys, Bandoni, Brereton, Camarata, yourself, Schrand, and Oswald, were you still a group?

Mr. POWERS. I don't think Bandoni was part of the group; no. He must have been because I have pictures. I don't think that he----

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these taken during the course of your time in the Marines which Oswald appears in?

Mr. POWERS. Just the one picture that I have of him appearing is a class-type photo when we got out of Keesler Air Force Base, and it shows Marine and Air Force personnel that graduated.

I have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or anything like that.

Going back to your original question: Brereton was on it, and Camarata and Schrand--maybe Schrand came later, I can't say for sure. But Oswald and myself, but I think that Bandoni went on the east coast, but Brereton went to Iwakuni, which is another Air Force--rather Marine base, and Camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in Japan, down in the harbor somewhere. I used to call him on the phone once in a while and talk to him.

And Brereton, I think--no, by gosh, maybe Bandoni was down at--no, that was Mike Cainey. We were flying between the Philippines, and if he would stop in at Iwakuni, I would stop in and see Mike.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mr. POWERS. Iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of Japan.

Mr. JENNER. I-O-W-C----

Mr. POWERS. I-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, I think. Iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. I think it's -i. I don't know. I'm lost, where I was. It seems to me that Brereton was over there, too, at Iwakuni, but I don't recall if I possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football trip or when I was flying down to the Philippines after wrestling season.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us about the trip over to Yokosuka, the life on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the platoon or group to Oswald.

Mr. POWERS. At this particular period of time, now, you're starting to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was brought about by my becoming a corporal, and I wasn't assigned some of the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, and I recall I didn't have to do anything going over, and there were some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, I can remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much proficiency to beat me. And he would sit and play, and we would maybe play--usually we played 1 game a day, and sometimes we would play 4 to 8 hours, playing chess.

Mr. JENNER. Four?

Mr. POWERS. Four to eight hours playing chess. And I got to a point where I beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased when he would win.

And again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. He was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his life.

And he used to read quite a bit. I remember we got these paperbacks, and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up westerns or anything like that. Normally, it would be a good type of literature; and the one that I recall was "Leaves of Grass," by Walt Whitman. And he had it for a period of time, and I would want to read it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. I think I still have the book.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the titles of any other books that he read?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, I'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that I recall these titles is because I still have most of these paperbacks that I kept quite a few of these, and they were the "Age of Reason," and "Age of Enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, I'm not sure. But I think there is something on the "Greatest President of the United States," and democracy, and books of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you obtain these books?

Mr. POWERS. They were given to the troops--I'll use that for a lack of a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where they got them, I don't know. I think they probably just picked them up and it was standard procedure, I assume.

Mr. JENNER. They were books that were distributed through the Marines?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you could read them or not as you saw fit?

Mr. POWERS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that you do recall Oswald did read "Leaves of Grass"?

Mr. POWERS. Right. Whether he read the other books, I'm not sure, but this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug store or something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. These were books which you were interested in?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; these were books which I was interested in mainly because the image that I held at that time that I was more educated than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for my own personal satisfaction as well, I read these books, and I think this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--I say "we," the people that had more education than the average marine there.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a voracious reader?

Mr. POWERS. What do you mean by the word "voracious"?

Mr. JENNER. Did he read a great deal?

Mr. POWERS. I can't truthfully say. I think everyone at that particular time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had in the Marine Corps. Mainly, you are in a limited space and this was the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself this way.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it it was not your impression, then, at least at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to reading as distinguished from what other Marines were doing in that regard?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I don't know. It seems to me when we were in Mississippi that he did read some--he was doing further reading than other--what the normal individual was doing at that time. I can't recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did this to----

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned poker, so I assume that you played poker on the trip over?

Mr. POWERS. I don't play. I don't play cards.

Mr. JENNER. Well, were there poker games, however, on the way over?

Mr. POWERS. I imagine there was. There was card games to some nature, whether it was poker or something, I don't know. To be truthful, I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald engage in the card games whenever there were----

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether he did any gambling?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of this man during this period of time?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "All the Marine Corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of the Marines, you might be good gangsters?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he made that statement. Now, whether it was at this particular period of time or not, I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. You do recall that he made that statement?

Mr. POWERS. That statement was made and I think it was--he was probably parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. And I think it was--this was a common statement, but as I recall, he--he did say this.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. But now when we were playing chess at one period of time, whether it was on the ship or not, I'm not sure, possibly it could have been in Japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, however, that this you might classify as some griping----

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Over the Marines?

Mr. POWERS. This would be normal.

Mr. JENNER. Or something similar?

Mr. POWERS. You wouldn't attach any significance to it. Someone would say, "The Marine Corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance to it.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Atsugi is about 35 miles from Tokyo, isn't it?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, what was your assignment?

Mr. POWERS. We were assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 1, and assigned to crews within this squadron.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some abbreviation for that?

Mr. POWERS. MACS 1, M-A-C-S 1.

Mr. JENNER. And you were headquartered at the naval air station at Atsugi, Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald--what did he serve as? I mean, was he a radar operator?

Mr. POWERS. I assume he was a radar operator. From here I lost almost total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. I played football during the fall and during this period of time we would play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the Philippines, and I stayed in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't go to the Philippines?

Mr. POWERS. I did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron went down to the Philippines, they went down, oh, I don't know, probably sometime in November, and I stayed down and played football, and then after that, I was wrestling--I wrestled for a while, and then out of the blue came orders to go to the Philippines, and from that time, I think this was sometime in the middle of January----

Mr. JENNER. What was the function of MACS 1?

Mr. POWERS. It was a squadron composed of a radar group.

Mr. JENNER. About how many men?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, in estimating, I would say 100 personnel at the most, and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that?

Mr. POWERS. You would not actually control the aircraft by flying it yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, and turn 90° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in range or where he could see it visually, and they took over.

Mr. JENNER. And you would be communicating with him in some fashion?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, when we were in Atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. You called it a "bogey" coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, if it didn't have the identification system on.

Mr. JENNER. And were these simulated enemy----

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I would say in our operations that they were in the Philippines, as I recall, it was all simulated. When we were in Japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--I think is the term that they used--and maybe it would be a Russian aircraft or Chinese aircraft straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft after it and go up and take a look-see. And that is as far as I knew.

Mr. JENNER. And so while you were in Japan, you would be actually looking for hot bogeys?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I actually never spent that much time on the site. I was playing football or----

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. So as I recall, that is what we used to do.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald play football?

Mr. POWERS. No; he was not athletic in any form.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't engage in any athletics?

Mr. POWERS. Not while I was in contact with him; no.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned when you boys were in Keesler you sometimes went to the gym. Did he go to the gym and work out?

Mr. POWERS. I can't recall that he ever did; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, in the Philippines?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And when was that?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, it was in the middle of January or February.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?

Mr. POWERS. Of 1958; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And where in the Philippines?

Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point.

Mr. JENNER. C-u-b-i?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; Cubi Point.

Mr. JENNER. And what was the nature of that installation?

Mr. POWERS. This was just temporary quarters for the squadron. They were caught in between. They were at an operation early in November and then this--something----

Mr. JENNER. That would be November of 1957?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. Something flared up, I believe, in Indonesia, somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a particular period of time; and then there was another operation going to start in February or sometime, or March, and they just----

Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to Japan, and then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore at Cubi Point. And they just set up a temporary base and continued the operation out of there. There was actually no radar site setup at that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the next operation.

Mr. JENNER. And during your stay at the Philippines, were you ever at Subic Bay instead of Cubi Point?

Mr. POWERS. Cubi Point and Subic Bay are at close proximity. Cubi Point is the landing actually, and Subic Bay is the harbor, and you can almost call it one actual installation as far as I was concerned, but they were designated--Cubi Point was the landing strip and Subic Bay was the landing area.

Mr. JENNER. In some of Oswald's autobiographical material prepared either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at Subic Bay, and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where he got that, and now you explained it for us.

Mr. POWERS. You traveled in between both, as far as they had the swimming point there; I remember it was at Subic--isn't it S-u-b-i-c?

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to say it.

Mr. POWERS. I thought it was Subic; I'm probably wrong.

Mr. JENNER. I won't say that you're wrong. I think you're right. It's Cubi Point and Subic Bay.

Mr. POWERS. Yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. They were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was for the aircraft.

Mr. JENNER. Now, was the same group that we--that you described earlier that came from Jacksonville, Fla., still together at Cubi Point when you rejoined the squadron?

Mr. POWERS. All but certain elements. I think the people in my particular group that originated in Jacksonville, the only people that were left was Schrand, Oswald, and myself. And the rest of them were dispersed in Japan or the Far East area or in the United States somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. And did an incident occur with respect to Mr. Schrand?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he was--this happened after I arrived from the Japanese mainland. He was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to death. Now, I have never seen the official report or anything, but the scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty.

Mr. JENNER. Were these also sometimes called riot guns?

Mr. POWERS. Riot guns; yes. And that is the only thing that--significance I attach to it other than he was either leaning against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway.

Mr. JENNER. Was there--you don't know what the official finding was with respect to----

Mr. POWERS. No; I do not. I never had access to anything of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt about it?

Mr. POWERS. No; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. Other than that, we couldn't--as I recall, we could never realize how a guy could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way [indicating], and "boom," it went off.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in that incident?

Mr. POWERS. Not to my recollection at all.

Mr. JENNER. When I say "you," that includes Oswald.

Mr. POWERS. Not that I know of; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Weren't there some instructions in connection with the use of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the chamber free of slugs?

Mr. POWERS. I'm almost sure--again I can't say for sure, but it seems to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, I'm not sure; it seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your chamber itself should be kept free.

Mr. JENNER. To avoid accidents?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think this was the rule because you would have to click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as happened.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with your radar scanning assignment?

Mr. POWERS. We were not trained to do it; no. They had the assigned personnel do it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything in this connection with respect to guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this happened again, I think, after the rest of the squadron left to go back to the Japanese mainland, and some of us were assigned temporary duty in Cubi Point there. I believe there were two of us, or three of us from the squadron.

Mr. JENNER. Who were they?

Mr. POWERS. Murphy; I believe, was one of them; and Private--Private, First Class Murphy, and I don't recall the other individuals, who the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. And as it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a U-2 aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which Oswald was included in, for the mainland.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald was included in a group that had returned to the mainland?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald still at Cubi Point when Marine Schrand was shot?

Mr. POWERS. I believe he was; yes. The whole squadron was there then, so he must have been there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. But Schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection with these special airplanes of which you now speak?

Mr. POWERS. Well, no; I don't believe so. I can't say that for sure, what it was regarding. But I don't think so. I think they were on the site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that the Air Force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went up. I think this is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a--did you have an assignment when you were shipped to Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; this assignment came between when I originally flew in to Cubi Point and then the squadron went on another operation where they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we went down to Corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or 6 weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland.

Mr. JENNER. Was Oswald part of the group that was assigned to Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you do at Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. We participated in a--I think it was the 3d Marine Division in the operation of military exercises.

Mr. JENNER. The same sort of thing that you had been doing back in Cubi Point?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated aircraft, scanning for it.

Mr. JENNER. Any incident occur during that period involving Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. No; nothing that I recall. Something sticks in my mind about being on mess duty, but I can't recall what the incident was. I have a picture of it in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. You did mention to the FBI when you were interviewed that he was on mess duty, and I assume in the first place he was not on mess duty all the time while he was in the Philippines, was he?

Mr. POWERS. No; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are assigned this duty periodically. I think you're assigned one week out of the year.

Mr. JENNER. This was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment?

Mr. POWERS. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you at Corregidor, a couple of months?

Mr. POWERS. I want to say 4 to 6 weeks, but it could have been longer.

Mr. JENNER. What was your means of transportation to and from Corregidor?

Mr. POWERS. LST.

Mr. JENNER. That's landing ship tank?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And when was this? Along about March of 1958, is that your recollection?

Mr. POWERS. I think it was; it was in this late-February-early-March period.

Mr. JENNER. When you returned to Cubi Point, you stayed there, but Oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I think they left out four, four of us stayed behind at Cubi Point.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do--did you return then to Atsugi?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. About when?

Mr. POWERS. I think it was in May.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1958?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir; late April or early May of 1958.

Mr. JENNER. When you reached Atsugi, was Oswald there?

Mr. POWERS. During this period of time, I think he was there, but it was shortly thereafter or just before I got there he was--he shot himself in the hand or in the leg or something. I don't remember which part of the body it was.

Mr. JENNER. In the left arm or elbow.

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. I couldn't truthfully say what it was. He was in a different part of the barracks and I think it was in the evening that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been.

Mr. JENNER. What was your information and what is still your information with respect to that incident? How it occurred, and whatnot.

Mr. POWERS. He was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it or what he was doing with it; I don't know. You see, this is what I recall: He was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, and he was hauled away, and I think he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon or something of this nature; I'm not sure.

They brought him up for court-martial. Whether he was actually court-martialed then, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. This was a privately owned weapon?

Mr. POWERS. I think so. All the less, it wasn't--I don't think it was a Government issue; I think it was a small caliber. I think it was a .22.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; .22 pistol.

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if any?

Mr. POWERS. Nothing. It--just the name again stuck to--"Ozzie screwed up again," or something. That was probably the general statement. I think this was the feeling of the group at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you used an expression "screwed up again." I'm going to ask you now what was the reputation of Oswald and the attitude of the squadron with respect to him----

Mr. POWERS. Well, going back to----

Mr. JENNER. During this period of time?

Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance sometimes.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during this period?

Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew----

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to get out of the service?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I want to recall it or something that is actually fact.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully.

Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure speculation?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on.

Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that because he had the unregistered or private weapon?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the tendency to recall something that----

Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else.

Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had been given some psychiatric attention?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is this in the area of guessing?

Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to substantiate it or anything of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves?

Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement to him again.

Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is that what you mean?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said that somewhere?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he wanted to stay in that particular country.

Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as soon stay in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or on weekends, you would have liberty?

Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the sergeant on duty and went on liberty.

Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty?

Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day.

Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends?

Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month.

Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Per month?

Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the Philippines, Operation Strong Back?

Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that?

Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play football; I don't remember what that was.

Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back?

Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have--yes, he was still in Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there.

Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you?

Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across----

Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol?

Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came after I left Japan.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en route most of June.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to him?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for an extension of his stay in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again attached any significance to it.

Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he did or not, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities?

Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was it. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular connection?

Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, Ozzie."

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language?

Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I relate--associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in Japan, but I'm not sure, though.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian language as such?

Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no.

Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language?

Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just brief glimpses.

Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a noncommissioned officer?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant?

Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or--I think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant before I left to come home, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation that he was not an aggressive person?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not from close relationships with him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand up for his own rights?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the States?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective appraisal during that first 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your presence?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or to any issues that I would recall.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you?

Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to.

Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other marines?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him that he would flare up once in a while.

Mr. JENNER. He would?

Mr. POWERS. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident----

Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back----

Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion?

Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it.

Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there anything mentioned about his being in Chicago?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or Milwaukee?

Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard that name associated with him.

Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself by and large?

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty at a different time.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated?

Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication with it----

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other individual in close relationship with the people that you are there with.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by name or----

Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type of thing. I'm not sure what it was.

Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that he did have.

Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines.

Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere.

Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as an odd-ball?

Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it--what an odd-ball means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's different.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different.

Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident.

And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it just followed him. And maybe--physically, like I say, he was not an impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed to be.

Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined?

Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent than most of them.

Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say "intelligence," education and the development of intelligence?

Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group or in the groups that he was in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that account?

Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic problems or school.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he was?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and the Browning automatic rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject that he had?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there and pondering a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I asked you this--to keep by himself?

Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself?

Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself.

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that because----

Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan because he was not a member of your platoon?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view?

Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not of the authority itself, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it probably.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado?

Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thornley?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall?

Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of----

Mr. POWERS. We used to call him Murph.

Mr. JENNER. Murray?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Osborne?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Call?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Botelho?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing?

Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present about religion?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. Camarata?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably recall.

Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the name of John E. Donovan?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now.

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in.

Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c.

Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you had contact with Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running around like him today that can be easily influenced.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also.

Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why----

Mr. JENNER. As far as you're concerned----

Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned.

Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN

The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present.

Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely.

The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of President Kennedy.

The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses.

Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these documents?

Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va.

Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown University.

Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio.

Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. For how long?

Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think.

Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in 1956.

Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service.

Mr. ELY. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were both members of the Marine Corps.

Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and I will interrupt with questions.

Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at El Toro?

Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I believe, 5 miles removed.

El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of "LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a radar base.

In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came into contact with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their contemporaries and how to get along with them.

I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on foreign affairs.

Mr. ELY. Who told you this?

Mr. DONOVAN. Bill Trail--William Kenneth Trail is his name--had served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine.

Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the relationship between you and Oswald.

Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding officer?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that crew I was the officer in command.

Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength.

Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men with whom you were in closest contact?

Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night watch.

During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. Often this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion to talk to him.

Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man.

Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. Most of them I had served with in Japan.

Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan?

Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you a common bond.

Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are interested in--usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in working with them to talk with them about all subjects.

You were constantly in communication with the center concerning aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, standing at the back of the radar room in off hours.

I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well.

Mr. ELY. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there is any point in going into that any further.

Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job?

Mr. DONOVAN. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions.

Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business.

He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always appreciate.

Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his quarters or his rifle or his uniform?

Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have occasion to inspect them.

But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in that respect.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I believe he was transferred to another hut.

Mr. ELY. But your general impression is that he was not especially----

Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy.

Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference to how he reacted to stress situations.

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he did it, no matter what you told him.

Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with regard to his job?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think that might be overstating the case in the other direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal.

Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald and his fellow enlisted men?

Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes.

Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing with his peers?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He read a great deal.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed to a Russian newspaper.

Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was one printed in the Russian language?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as gospel--although----

Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Was the paper printed in Russia, do you know?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know.

Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could.

Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its ideological content?

Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the international situation.

I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation.

His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you very much."

As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?"

In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia.

And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more knowledge than that man."

And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international affairs.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or situations which he questioned officers about?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly.

I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.

But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.

Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was not an unpopular belief at that time.

Mr. ELY. What did he say?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?

Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him saying it to anyone else.

Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody interested in other things?

Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared even that companionship with them consistently.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one interested in serious reading?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer----

Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and can talk to her.

Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn?

Would that ring a bell? You don't remember?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell.

Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his personality?

Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which Oswald did extensive reading in?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed to you, have been a mistake?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some philosophers.

Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.

I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew the name, and that was it.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention?

Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later action.

Mr. ELY. Hegel.

Did he mention Marx?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx, but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support anything in particular.

Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages other than Russian and English?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't believe he had a command of Spanish.

Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding German at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school anywhere?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly had the ability, if he had wanted to do it.

There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and the Secret Service.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend school in any foreign country?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had turned up in Moscow.

Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all anywhere outside the country.

Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so suddenly.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any other country specifically with regard to injustices?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or wherever I was talking with them about.

But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned that that was unjust.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and Central American family, and their regime as a family.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be done about problems in Asia or Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.

Mr. ELY. This is his opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an inordinate interest in competitive sports.

Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say, a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, at any rate, he stopped playing.

Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said.

Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.

Were you the captain of this team?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember him.

Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback?

Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.

Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had a slender build.

Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed and agility?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough.

Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be a really good football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high school in a good high school.

Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football?

Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated to a normal degree.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team spirit.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order.

Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.

Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's proficiency in firing the rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men in.

Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen.

I don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. If he had a score of 210, which would make him sharpshooter, I would assume that from the standing position he could hit a 10-inch bullseye 8 times out of 10.

Mr. ELY. Do you know how the score was recorded? Did the firer of the weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never. That is one of the things that makes this quite difficult. The men are on a firing range, a minimum of 200 yards distance, a maximum of 800 yards distance. When you are put into what is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. A staff NCO or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. And it is not impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. And I have no reason to suspect that he did.

Mr. ELY. In order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, and punch the target before the NCO got there?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct. You fired from a given position every day.

For instance, if you fired on target 17 during the week or two of qualification, you always fired on target 17. However, in the target area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of choice. The sergeant just said, "You men take target 1", "target 2," and so on. So it would be most unusual.

But I suppose it does happen.

Mr. ELY. Earlier in your deposition you stated, I believe, that you never heard Oswald wise off to any NCO. When speaking to the FBI, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's characterization?

Mr. DONOVAN. He was a wise guy in the sense that he could be disrespectful in a way that you would accept. He would in a very respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing with. We had one fellow on our crew, a S. Sgt. Cornelius Brown, and Sergeant Brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar that I have ever encountered. Sergeant Brown could barely write. He could read, but again barely read. He could read a newspaper.

But most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. And it was characteristic of Oswald to bait people, particularly on foreign affairs. He would listen interestedly, ask questions in an interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking about.

Mr. ELY. Do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I think his mind was made up. I think he wanted to ask questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a person in a position of authority. I think he tried to make it evident to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more intelligent than people who were in charge of him. And this in itself was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. I don't think that he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, whose opinion he particularly respected. He had his mind made up and was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone.

Mr. ELY. How did Oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of NCOs and officers?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks inspections much more frequently, and I don't think this particularly made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude.

Mr. ELY. Do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was brighter than the officers he was talking to?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think that they accepted the view that he was brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of world affairs. In respect to them, I think he knew more than they did, at least in facts.

I think they admired his ability to pursue Russian on his own and learn it. And I think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of intelligence.

Mr. ELY. While you and Oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any trouble of a nature which would require administrative action?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. ELY. Returning to this date that you had with this airline stewardess, did she tell you anything about Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. As I recall, the only thing she said was that he was rather strange. And I do recall that either she or her brother at that time mentioned that he does speak Russian and reads Russian newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Did she say in what way he was strange?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall in what way she said he was strange.

Mr. ELY. Did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when she was with him?

Mr. DONOVAN. I got that impression. But I think that they didn't share any common interest. I think he was truly interested in international affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses I have known.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall the circumstances under which Oswald left the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. ELY. Could you relate them to us, please?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that he got a hardship discharge. We offered to get him a flight--that is a hop from El Toro to some place in Texas, his home. He refused. We considered that normal in that if you take a hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. We offered to take him to a bus or train station. He refused. But that is not particularly unusual, either.

I recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before I got out of the Marine Corps, which was mid-December 1959, we received word that he had showed up in Moscow. This necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies.

He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.

If you had asked me a month after I left that area, I could not have told you any but our own. Had I wanted to record them, I certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. Unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, I doubt if he would have been able to recall them a month later, either.

Mr. ELY. You recall that various codes were changed. Now, at what level were these changed? Was this an action of your specific unit, or a fairly widespread action?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, I did not witness the changing in any other squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously between two or more units. Therefore, the other units had to change it. These codes are a grid, and two lines correspond.

And he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "AB," or whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to be.

Mr. ELY. Are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are changed from time to time, that is right.

Mr. ELY. Are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change?

Mr. DONOVAN. They are methodically changed anyway. There are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the MPS 16 height-finder radar gear. That had recently been integrated into the Marine Corps system. It had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. He had been schooled on those limitations.

It cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height.

He had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a TPX-1, which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. Radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. He had been schooled on this.

And that kind of stuff you cannot change.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald have any kind of clearance?

Mr. DONOVAN. He must have had secret clearance to work in the radar center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us.

Mr. ELY. Was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; they checked your card data. Within the center, which is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all positions of an enlisted man. At times, as I told you, he served as plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief.

Mr. ELY. Were you the one who picked the crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. I was in a rather favorable position, since I was the training officer and assistant operations officer, that I had first choice of crew chiefs. I always picked one of two men--either Sgt. Cornelius Brown or Sgt. Eugene Holmburg. I have already told you where Sergeant Brown is.

Sergeant Holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on active duty in the Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever pick Oswald to act as crew chief?

Mr. DONOVAN. There was occasion when Oswald acted as crew chief. If one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and Oswald was senior man present, he was crew chief. And I had no complaint about his work.

Mr. ELY. Did he show any special ability in this direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he was competent, very competent. And I think he did his job well. I don't recall anything coming up that he could not handle.

Mr. ELY. In acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated leadership qualities?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think he was a leader.

Mr. ELY. However, is it fair to say that any reservations you have about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide never to use him as a crew chief again?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief.

Mr. ELY. When the other men in the unit found out that Oswald was in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning transportation?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that I offered to help him any way I could, including financially. And you can talk to Sergeant Brown, but I believe that Sergeant Brown helped him, or offered to help him.

Mr. ELY. Did he accept these offers?

Mr. DONOVAN. He did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did not from anyone.

Mr. ELY. Did he give a reason for refusing them?

Mr. DONOVAN. He didn't need the help.

Mr. ELY. Did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no idea. I don't recall seeing any papers. Just word around the squadron.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get a discharge?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. I did know that his mother needed help. And, at that time, I recall that I believed he was a sole surviving son. Since that date I have read that he has a brother. At that time, as I recall, I believed him to be an only son, and his mother needed help.

Mr. ELY. Did you observe on the part of Oswald anything that could be termed mental instability?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; except that he had an extreme passion for this field of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they might have been limited to me, I don't know. But it is unusual when anyone is solely interested in one given thing.

Mr. ELY. During discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly angry, did he raise his voice?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he never raised his voice, but he could become passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in trying to get you to see what he saw.

Mr. ELY. But he always retained physical control of himself, in terms of pounding the table, screaming?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; I don't believe he became any more physically worked up than people we talk with every day.

Mr. ELY. Did you observe Oswald to complain about the Marine Corps any more than the average Marine complains about the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. Most guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on KP so many times, et cetera.

I don't recall those complaints from him. They may have come. The complaint he had was that the Marine Corps did not recognize his ability to to be in a position of command. I recall that on several instances I encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for NCO leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he ever took an OCS qualification exam?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall that he did.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall any interest on Oswald's part in music?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. Fine. I am going to run down a list of short questions like that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't remember. These are things that have been suggested to us.

Do you recall whether or not he played chess?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I do recall. I have played chess with him some nights. And, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. I won the base championship that year in chess. I know that on occasion he beat me. That was not a very big base. But he and I were comparable players. I think I beat him more times than I lost to him.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious beliefs?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in God.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall that he----

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of God.

Mr. ELY. Never mentioned the subject at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you were at Santa Ana?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his getting into any fights.

Mr. ELY. I believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you particularly interested in girls.

Was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his desires?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service for being homosexual. He was in no way tied in with it that I know of. His lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as an officer I cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about them.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he smoked?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall.

Mr. ELY. Would you say that he had a good sense of humor?

Mr. DONOVAN. If my sense of humor is good, he did not.

Mr. ELY. Did he attempt to be funny?

Mr. DONOVAN. He attempted it at times.

Mr. ELY. And, in your opinion, failed?

Mr. DONOVAN. And in my opinion he was a failure in that respect.

Mr. ELY. You have mentioned that he read a Russian newspaper. Do you remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would suggest an interest in the Soviet Union?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

However, I do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring textbooks to read concerning GATT, et cetera--at least at the time they were monumentally boring. And on occasion he would bring up one of these books--I don't recall which one--but say, "Are you familiar with this?" And it was my good fortune to have studied it. And he would ask about something. And in some respects he would ask you about a term he did not know. But he never would ask you about a concept, except in an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. But he would ask you what some word meant in economics. He was interested in international economics.

Mr. ELY. Could you state for the record what GATT stands for?

Mr. DONOVAN. General Agreement on Trade and Tariff.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall his having any nicknames?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. What were they?

Mr. DONOVAN. Ozzie.

Mr. ELY. Anything else?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. ELY. Did most people call him Ozzie?

Mr. DONOVAN. Or Oz.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the Cuban consulate, either in person or by mail?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of that.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether----

Mr. DONOVAN. Are you talking about then, or now?

Mr. ELY. I am talking about then, right.

Do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I think he took a couple of trips down to Tijuana, but I don't think those were for reasons of studying international economics, although they might well have been.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever tell you what he did in Tijuana?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never, and I never inquired.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether he took any trips to Los Angeles?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't know it, but I am sure he did, because it was common for all those boys to go in and out of Los Angeles or Hollywood, or up to Disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date or something.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice that he either took more trips than the average marine, or that he took fewer trips?

Mr. DONOVAN. I did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of the ordinary in that respect.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember his receiving any visitors while he was at Santa Ana?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not recall his receiving any visitors.

Mr. ELY. Does the name Lieutenant Cupenak mean anything to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. Means absolutely nothing to me.

Mr. ELY. Cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything to you?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, I knew a Lieutenant John Cuaka. C-u-a-k-a. That spelling is strictly phonetic.

Mr. ELY. Was he at Santa Ana at that time?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not believe he was. I knew him in the Philippines and in Japan. He was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with a GCA, standing for Ground Control Approach unit. But Cupenak doesn't ring a bell at all.

Mr. ELY. Finally, Mr. Donovan, I would like to get your opinion on which of the men who were at Santa Ana at the time that both you and Oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the personality of Oswald. I will mention the names that I have to you, and see whether you think----

Mr. DONOVAN. You mean which in the plural or singular? You want me to say which would be most----

Mr. ELY. I will read the names to you, and you can comment on them individually.

Do you remember a man named Thornley?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall the name at all.

Mr. ELY. All right.

How about a man named Lewis?

Mr. DONOVAN. Don't recall the name at all.

Mr. ELY. Botelho?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Botelho was a man in our squadron. I cannot recall his face. But I do recall the man being in our squadron. And he went by the nickname, normally enough, of Bo.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember whether or not he knew Oswald well?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Call?

Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do. He is from Allentown, Pa. I tried to look him up after my discharge. I was passing through his town. He was a corporal, later sergeant, I believe, buck sergeant.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. He must have. Call was another boy I played chess with.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize Call as an intellectual?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would characterize Call as being modestly intelligent--modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but in reference to his character concerning his intelligence.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Delgado?

Mr. DONOVAN. I certainly do--quite well. Delgado was on my crew. He was one of the boys that used to speak with the Mexican ham operators to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. And Delgado had a command of Mexican more than Spanish. Delgado was a very dependable boy.

Mr. ELY. Do you think he would be able to help us concerning Oswald?

Mr. DONOVAN. He could tell you much more about Oswald's personal life than I can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; Delgado played on the football team. He many times served on the same crew with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Murray?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, Murray was a clerk. He had a radar specialization number, but we used him as a clerk. And, as I recall, he wanted to go back to medical school. I think he was from the South somewhere, I believe. Very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether he knew Oswald well, or would it be fair to say that all the men on the crew would know him?

Mr. DONOVAN. Well, Murray I don't think you would say was on the crew so much. Murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in the office. Murray was married. And that puts him in a little different light, too. I think he was very happily married. At the end of the day he went home--whereas Oswald stayed in the barracks area.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember a man named Powers?

Mr. DONOVAN. The name rings a bell, but I don't really remember him.

Mr. ELY. Osborne?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Osborne was an acquaintance of Oswald's?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Osborne I knew quite well. He played football with us for some time. He must have known him. I don't know if he actually lived in the same barracks. He knew him. I don't know how well he knew him.

Mr. ELY. Now, you have mentioned Captain Trail to us, and also Sergeant Brown.

Mr. DONOVAN. Captain Trail was Lieutenant Trail when I knew him. I think he is now Captain Trail.

Mr. ELY. Yes. Can you think of any other names that neither you nor I have already mentioned?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; another fellow that I am sure knew him was a fellow named Elmer Ellsworth Randolph. And he is now a salesman for Brock Candy Co., somewhere in the Chicago area.

Another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--Fred Walker. He is a captain. I believe Walker knew him.

Captain Block, Robert Block, was the operations officer at that time. I don't know if he would remember Oswald or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall whether Oswald ever went to night clubs? Bars?

Mr. DONOVAN. I think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to drink beer. I recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on a disturbance and I vaguely remember him being there, but I would not swear to that.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended offpost bars or night clubs?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I would not.

Mr. ELY. Did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount, less?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believed not. However, after the assassination of President Kennedy, I talked to Lieutenant Trail on the phone and Trail told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in Japan.

Mr. ELY. But from your own----

Mr. DONOVAN. From my own personal knowledge, I do not know that he drank to excess.

Mr. ELY. But he did drink some?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't ever recall seeing him drink. But as I recall the conversation, I believe he did. But I don't know that for a fact.

Mr. ELY. Well, in that case, Mr. Donovan, I think that is all the questions I have for you.

Do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to figure out what sort of a man Oswald was?

Mr. DONOVAN. There is one name that you did not mention that I know that lived in the same barracks he did. Cpl. Sherman Cooley. He also served on that crew. I served with Cooley overseas, and in Santa Ana. Cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it.

The reason I remember his first name, it always struck me as strange that someone named Sherman would live in Louisiana.

Another boy's name is Dejanovich. That is phonetic. Dejanovich lived in Chicago, and after I was discharged from the service I called him on the phone a couple of times, passing through there.

Another guy that would know him is a boy named Jurarado, I believe. I don't know how much these boys knew about him. They are just people that were there at the same time.

Mr. ELY. Your mention of Dejanovich reminds me of a question I intended to ask you.

Do you recall any of Oswald's former marines calling him Oswaldovich, or anything that sounded like that?

Mr. DONOVAN. No.

Mr. ELY. Do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "Comrade?"

Mr. DONOVAN. No.

Mr. ELY. Well, if you have nothing more to add, Mr. Donovan, on behalf of the Commission, I would like to thank you for giving us your time and testimony. It has been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF ALLISON G. FOLSOM, LT. COL., USMC

The testimony of Allison G. Folsom, Lt. Col., USMC, was taken at 1:15 p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Colonel, would you please stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Colonel FOLSOM. I do.

Mr. ELY. My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. I have provided you with these documents, is that correct?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is true.

Mr. ELY. Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony.

You did not have 3 days' notice. However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that your presence here indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement.

Colonel FOLSOM. It is waived.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Colonel FOLSOM. Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Jr., U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. What is your job in the Marine Corps, sir?

Colonel FOLSOM. My primary duty is head, Records Branch, Personnel Department, Headquarters U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. How long have you held this position?

Colonel FOLSOM. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. ELY. Could you give us something of an idea of your background--what you did before you entered the Marine Corps?

Colonel FOLSOM. I was a student.

Mr. ELY. And how long have you been in the Marine Corps?

Colonel FOLSOM. I entered active duty in the Marine Corps 5 August 1935.

Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us in what connection that was?

Colonel FOLSOM. It was in connection with his record, which was requested by the Discipline Branch of Headquarters, Marine Corps, and they advised me of his renunciation, I would guess, of his citizenship, and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge.

Mr. ELY. I see. And that is the first time you had ever heard of him?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever meet the man?

Colonel FOLSOM. No.

Mr. ELY. All right. The primary reason that we have called you here, colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with Oswald, but because of your position. We have here Oswald's Marine records, and we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test scores and things like that.

Let me show you this document, which we will mark Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can tell us what it is.

(The document referred to was marked Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Colonel FOLSOM. It represents a photostatic copy of the official record held by the Marine Corps of Lee Harvey Oswald, former marine.

Mr. ELY. Our procedure now will be to go through the document which you have just identified. I have numbered the pages of this document in the upper right-hand corner.

We will ask you to explain things as we come to them. Starting on page 1 of Exhibit No. 1, first I wonder if you might tell us what Oswald's scores here under the category of Physical Profile mean.

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the classification of "A" indicates that there were no physical defects at the time he was examined--the date, 24 October 1956, I assume, was upon his enlistment.

Mr. ELY. Yes; moving down the left side of page 1, we have the abbreviation "PEBD." Will you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. Pay entry base date.

Mr. ELY. I note that the pay entry base date on Oswald's record has been changed from 24 October 1956 to 8 December 1956. Why would this be?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This was changed to reflect time lost due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. In this instance it was days lost due to confinement.

Mr. ELY. Also on page 1 it is noted that Oswald was a "UQ" class swimmer. What does that stand for?

Colonel FOLSOM. Unqualified.

Mr. ELY. Finally on page 1, at the bottom, there is written in the fact that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to "SA" action.

Colonel FOLSOM. Supervisory authority action in a court-martial.

Mr. ELY. I show you now page 3 of this exhibit. Could you tell us generally what this page of the record is.

Colonel FOLSOM. Page 3 of the Marine Corps Enlisted Service Record constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows conduct and proficiency markings.

Mr. ELY. In connection with these conduct and proficiency markings, could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned?

Colonel FOLSOM. The Marine Corps marks on a scale of from 0 to 5.0.

Mr. ELY. 5.0 is the maximum grade?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. And what would be the minimum satisfactory grade? Is there no minimum?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; there is none as such, because the markings are averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under honorable conditions.

Mr. ELY. Do you know what the minimum average for an honorable discharge would be?

Colonel FOLSOM. I believe--was the question under honorable conditions?

Mr. ELY. Well, what would be the minimum for an honorable discharge?

Colonel FOLSOM. 4.0.

Mr. ELY. All right.

Now, I would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically. I think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the various columns on this page. Now, the column on the extreme left is labeled "organization." I shall ask you about the ones which I think might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. There is an abbreviation here, after Oswald left Jacksonville, he was transferred to a unit abbreviated CASCO HQBN HQMC. Would you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. That indicates he was attached to the Casual Company, Headquarters Battalion, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, at that time.

Mr. ELY. Now, this would have been while he was----

Colonel FOLSOM. He joined on 4 May 1957.

Mr. ELY. Yes; I believe it was during the time he was at Keesler Air Force Base.

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; undergoing duty under instruction.

Mr. ELY. Moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an entry of 27 October 1957, which is abbreviated, "To Sk." What does that stand for?

Colonel FOLSOM. To sick. He was admitted to the U.S. Naval Hospital Yokosuka, Japan.

Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated "To Du" would mean return to duty?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. The entry directly below the To Duty entry which is abbreviated "SEMIAN" would indicate what?

Colonel FOLSOM. That it was a semiannual marking.

Mr. ELY. In other words, this is an entry strictly for marking purposes?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. And the entry directly below that is abbreviated "To Cnfd."

Colonel FOLSOM. To confinement. In this instance, serving sentence summary court-martial.

Mr. ELY. Moving now to the next column, labeled "Primary Duty," one abbreviation which recurs is "DUINS." Could you tell us what that means?

Colonel FOLSOM. Duty under instruction.

Mr. ELY. And the entry of 12 September 1957 has an abbreviation which I believe refers to the sort of job which Oswald was performing. Could you tell us what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. In this case he was a replacement trainee.

Mr. ELY. Well, that is the entry for 9 July 1957. That stands for replacement trainee. Could you tell us what the entry for 12 September 1957 is?

Colonel FOLSOM. It indicates that he joined Marine Air Control Squadron, No. 1, Marine Air Group 11, First Marine Aircraft Wing, Fleet Marine Force, care of "FPO" San Francisco. This is a mailing address for an organization in the First Wing which at that time was in Japan.

Mr. ELY. And what was the job that he performed?

Colonel FOLSOM. He was an aviation electronics operator.

Mr. ELY. All right. I think that with the help you have given us, anybody looking over this record which appears at page 3 and 4 of the Folsom Deposition Exhibit No. 1 could readily understand the progress of Oswald's service.

Turning now to page 5 of the exhibit, I notice that before Oswald was awarded his final MOS, he was awarded an MOS, that is a Military Occupational Specialty, of 6400. Do you know, Colonel, what that stands for?

Colonel FOLSOM. It is a basic MOS in aviation electronics, I believe.

Mr. ELY. Now, we have an entry at the bottom of page 5 of this exhibit which was later crossed out. Could you explain to us the meaning of that entry?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This is an entry that is additional information as to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. This entry shows that Oswald achieved a composite score for the second 1958 testing period of 113. The reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a summary court-martial.

Mr. ELY. Is there any way of evaluating his score of 113?

Colonel FOLSOM. It would be very difficult to reconstruct it. It is a composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and time in grade. And promotions are based on cutting scores established by Headquarters Marine Corps, which are promulgated to the field, and individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by their local organizations.

Mr. ELY. But the cutting score which is promulgated varies from time to time?

Colonel FOLSOM. It fluctuates. Well, it does not fluctuate--it is controlled by a staff agency at Headquarters, Marine Corps, to fulfill the needs of the Marine Corps by--in the varying grades.

Mr. ELY. Turning our attention now to page 6 of the exhibit, I notice here in the section labeled "Allotments" that toward the end of Oswald's Marine Corps career his mother received two allotments. These two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose--one being given a "Q" designation and the other being given a "D" designation.

Can you explain what the difference is?

Colonel FOLSOM. The "Q" allotment is one where a portion of it is provided by the Government, and the other portion by the individual. It is a dependency allotment.

The "D" allotment, I believe, is an additional voluntary contribution.

Mr. ELY. The "D" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to send out of his pay?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Immediately below the allotment section is the record of Oswald's firing of various weapons. We would like you to explain some of the abbreviations found in this record.

Under the column "Course" we see that at one point he fired the M-1 Rifle on a so-called "A" course, and, too, he fired it on a "B" course. Could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; the "A" course is the standard marksmanship qualification course used by the Marine Corps for the M-1 Rifle. The "B" course is a shorter course--by that, less rounds of ammunition are fired.

Mr. ELY. But both of these courses are such that one can record a score?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a result of the scores.

In the case of the "A" course, Oswald obtained a score of 212 which would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a sharpshooter. However, the score of 212 was erroneously designated with the abbreviation "MM" for marksman.

When he fired the "B" course, he is rated "MM" or marksman, and this is a correct designation in accordance with the score fired.

Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that when he fired the "A" course he would have been still in basic training at San Diego?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. This was on the 21st of December 1958. Did you mention what the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point?

Colonel FOLSOM. It would have been 210.

Mr. ELY. In other words, he was two points over the minimum for sharpshooter and the designation "MM" on his record was an error?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Am I correct in stating that the "B" course firing to which you referred occurred on May 6, 1959, at El Toro, Calif.?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. His record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a .45 caliber pistol, and at some times an M-1 rifle on a course designated "FAM." That stands for familiarization?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. And that means that no scores----

Colonel FOLSOM. No score is recorded. It is merely to familiarize the people with the operation of the weapon.

Mr. ELY. When you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the next highest, and expert would be the highest category?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 7 of the exhibit, which is titled "Military and Civilian Occupational Specialties and Education," I see hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses taken by Oswald, first while he was at Jacksonville, and then while he was at Keesler Air Force Base. Could you tell us the meanings of these two abbreviations?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; at Jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in aviation fundamentals school, course "P." And at Keesler Air Force Base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and warning operator's course. Both of these courses were of 6 weeks' duration.

Mr. ELY. I am a little curious about Keesler Air Force Base. Is that under the auspices of the Air Force rather than the Marine Corps?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; it is an Air Force School.

Mr. ELY. And do people from all branches of the service get trained there?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; we have cross training with all the other services.

Mr. ELY. All right. Now, moving further down page 7, we have the record of a Russian examination taken by Oswald on February 25, 1959. Could you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores achieved by Oswald mean?

Colonel FOLSOM. The test form was Department of the Army, Adjutant General's Office, PRT-157. This is merely the test series designation.

Now, under "understands" the scoring was minus 5, which means that he got five more wrong than right. The "P" in parentheses indicates "poor." Under reading he achieved a score of 4, which is low. This, again, is shown by the "P" in parentheses for "poor."

Mr. ELY. This 4 means he got four more questions right than wrong?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

And under "writes" he achieved a score of 3, with "P" in parentheses, and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong.

His total score was 2, with a "P" in parentheses meaning that overall he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout.

Mr. ELY. Page 7 also summarizes the results of the battery of classification and aptitude tests taken by Oswald upon his entry into the Marine Corps, specifically on October 30, 1956. This battery was composed of six examinations.

Oswald's scores I see range from as low as 92 to as high as 125.

Could you, Colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are, and what Oswald's scores in each of them means?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. I will take this in sequence.

The "RV" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, Roman numeral II-125 indicates that he was in the second category. Categories throughout the test battery run from I to IV, with IV being the highest.

The abbreviation "AC"--arithmetical computation--and the score Roman numeral III-108, indicates that he dropped into the third class.

"AR" is arithmetical computation, Roman numeral III-90, indicates that he was at the bottom of the Grade 3 in this area.

"PA" indicates pattern analysis, Roman numeral III-94 indicates that he was the bottom portion of the third group in this category.

Now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test score, the abbreviation "GCT" represents that definition. And as a result of Oswald's composite scores, he was graded as a Grade 3, Roman III-103. At that time, the Marine Corps average, I believe, was 107.

Mr. ELY. Would you explain the one designated "RCT"?

Colonel FOLSOM. The abbreviation "RCT" is--represents radio code test. There are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one being the highest. The minimum, or the range in Grade III is from 90 to 109. As Oswald achieved 92, he was in the bottom, practically, of Group III.

Mr. ELY. Which is the lowest group.

Colonel FOLSOM. Which is the lowest.

Mr. ELY. Now, directing your attention to page 8, which is a summary court memorandum: this relates, I believe, to his first court-martial, and in general is self-explanatory. I want, however, to ask you about one sentence which to me seems to be in error.

According to the notation made here on page 8, under the title "Convening Authorities Action Dated," it states that that part of Oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for 20 days would be suspended "for 6 months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for 20 days will be remitted without further action."

However, turning our attention down to Section 11, page 8, it was noted that on June 27, 1958, which would be the time of his second court-martial, "Confinement at hard labor for 28 days vacated on June 27, 1958."

So the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated. Am I correct in assuming, Colonel, that what it really means to say is that the suspension of the sentence was vacated?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

However, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence was for 20 days, and not 28 days, as shown under the subject entry.

Mr. ELY. Right.

So I suppose we have a typographical error, substituting 28 for 20 and we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated.

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. However, Colonel, what did happen is that when he was court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, that portion of it--unexecuted portion of the first sentence.

Mr. ELY. That is correct. Thank you.

On page 9 of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second court-martial. At this point, again, I think the page is in general self-explanatory. However, under the section marked "Findings" on each charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on Charge II he was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "On specification of" Charge I. Am I correct in thinking that is a typographical error and that it should be that on the specification of Charge II, he was found not guilty?

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. So the record should read, on page 9, that Oswald was found guilty on Charge I, which was a violation of Article 117 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly he was found guilty on the specification under Charge I, which was wrongfully using provoking words to a staff noncommissioned officer. However, on Charge II, which was a violation of Article 128 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him.

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 10 of the exhibit, the title of which is "Administrative Remarks" I note entries dated April 14, 1958, indicating that a request for an extension of Oswald's overseas tour had been received and approved.

Must such a request come from the marine whose overseas tour is involved?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. This must be a voluntary request from the individual concerned.

Mr. ELY. In other words, then, Oswald wanted to stay overseas longer than he was scheduled to have been over there?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes.

Mr. ELY. I note, also, on page 10 that this extension which had been approved was later canceled, on July 13, 1958.

Is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for this cancellation was?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a result of the disciplinary action.

Mr. ELY. So we might guess that because this followed his second court-martial, that was the reason?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes; and it followed it very closely.

Mr. ELY. Now, we will move all the way over to page 26, and I want to ask you about only one entry here--actually it is two entries relating to one event.

On January 19, 1959, the record discloses that Oswald departed El Toro for Yuma, Arizona, and that on January 26, 1959, he returned to El Toro from Yuma.

Is there any way of telling from this record for what purpose he went to Yuma?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The record shows that he departed MCS, MCAS, El Toro, for ADEX, 1-59, which is a designation for an air defense exercise, the first one held during 1959.

Mr. ELY. Turning to page 27, I just want to clear up one detail that might be confusing to somebody who has been in the Army rather than in the Marine Corps.

It is here noted that Oswald was, at least for part of his career, private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "E-2". Am I correct in asserting that in the Marine Corps a private is an E-1, a private first class is an E-2, your E-3 is a lance corporal, and your E-4 is a corporal?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. This is under the new rank structure.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 36 of Folsom Deposition Exhibit 1, I want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. This is one that is indicated for both the periods June 27, 1958 through June 30, 1959 and July 1, 1958 through July 24, 1958. It is an abbreviated CNF SSCM. What does that stand for?

Colonel FOLSOM. Confined, serving sentence--it should be summary court-martial, but let me look at the record.

Mr. ELY. You mean there should be three "S's"?

Colonel FOLSOM. I just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a special in here.

Yes--serving sentence, summary court-martial.

Mr. ELY. Turning now to page 106 of the exhibit, we have here a document relating to the high school level general educational development tests which were taken by Oswald on March 23, 1959. Page 106 reports the scores received by Oswald on each of these five tests, and also converts each score into a so-called United States percentile.

However, it does not make clear what the five areas in which Oswald was tested were. Could you tell us what they are?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The high school "GED" test covers five areas. One, English literature; two, English composition; three, social sciences; four, physical sciences; five, mathematics.

Mr. ELY. Is it the case that those five that you have just read off were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. The battery is administered in the sequence in which it appears on the report.

Mr. ELY. And am I correct in asserting that on this test Oswald received a rating of satisfactory?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct. I believe USAFI rates as satisfactory or unsatisfactory.

Mr. ELY. Right.

Well, that is not entirely clear. We have a rating code printed in the lower right-hand corner.

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, they have two passing ones--satisfactory, and "D" with distinction, and "U", unsatisfactory.

Mr. ELY. So he could have received a higher rating than he did?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is correct.

Mr. ELY. Finally for this document, turning to page 120, we have a rather imposing score sheet which relates Oswald's scores while he was in training at Jacksonville, Florida. Could you explain the meaning of these numbers insofar as you can?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, the first column indicates the number of hours devoted to the subject. In the first instance, 37 hours to mathematics, two examinations were given, he achieved a score of 67 on the first and 54 on the second.

The last--the next column indicates his average score for that subject.

Twenty-five hours physics, score, 75 and 77.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you know whether those scores you just read are on a scale of 100?

Colonel FOLSOM. I do not know. But from the mathematics I would assume they are, particularly since they say that 62 is a passing score.

Mr. ELY. I see.

Now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right, which you say represents his average. It is his average on the previous test carried out to three digits without the decimal point.

Colonel FOLSOM. That is correct. This report was prepared on an electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret.

Mr. ELY. Yes. But I do see that that makes sense in terms of the individual scores.

Colonel FOLSOM. Do you want to go through all of these?

Mr. ELY. No; I don't think that will be necessary, now that you have explained the principle by which the scores are recorded.

Colonel FOLSOM. Under the heading "Indoctrination Test Scores" this is a test, an Army test battery, which in this instance was administered by the Marine Corps at a Navy installation. It consists of a reading and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and pattern analysis. The "GC" is an abbreviation for "GCT".

These are raw scores.

Mr. ELY. The ones designated RV, AC, AR, and PA?

Colonel FOLSOM. And the scores indicated are raw scores, which converted to the Marine Corps scoring on the general classification test shows that Oswald achieved a score of 105 on this test battery, and a score of 106 on the Marine Corps test batter. So the correlation is quite close.

The column headed "B" indicates year of birth. And the "G" column indicates the number of years of schooling--in this case, nine.

Mr. ELY. All right.

Colonel, I would finally like to show you a document which has already been introduced in evidence before the Commission in connection with the testimony of Marguerite Oswald. It is, therefore, designated Exhibit 239.

This exhibit is a photostatic copy.

Could you tell us, Colonel, of what it is a photostatic copy?

Colonel FOLSOM. It is a Photostatic copy of the U.S. Marine Corps Scorebook for use with the U.S. Rifle, Caliber 30 M-1.

Now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification.

They are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the weather on the day that the entries are made. This is referred to in the Marine Corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. That is, he may--this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired.

Mr. ELY. This book, then, is used by the individual Marine prior to his firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will do well on his record firing?

Colonel FOLSOM. This is the purpose. And it should be maintained even on the day that he fires for record.

In this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather limited. As a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the purpose for which it was designed.

Mr. ELY. Is it possible, Colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook, assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning the marksmanship of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, yes. But very generally. For instance, at 200 yards slow fire--on Tuesday, at 200 yards slow fire, offhand position----

Mr. ELY. You are referring, are you not, to the page designated 22 in Oswald's scorebook?

Colonel FOLSOM. Right--well, 22 as opposed to 23. He got out in the three ring, which is not good. They should be able to keep them--all 10 shots within the four ring.

Mr. ELY. And even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than that if he were a good shot?

Colonel FOLSOM. Yes. As a matter of fact, at 200 yards, people should get a score of between 48 and 50 in the offhand position.

Mr. ELY. And what was his score?

Colonel FOLSOM. Well, total shown on page 22 would be--he got a score of 34 out of a possible 50 on Tuesday, as shown on page 22 of his record book.

On Wednesday, he got a score of 38, improved four points.

Do you want to compute these?

Mr. ELY. I don't see any point in doing this page by page.

I just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his career he was not a particularly outstanding shot.

Colonel FOLSOM. No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates--as a matter of fact--that he did well at one or two ranges in order to achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter.

Mr. ELY. In other words, he had a good day the day he fired for qualification?

Colonel FOLSOM. I would say so.

Mr. ELY. Well, Colonel, as far as I can see, that is all the testimony that we need from you with regard to these records. No doubt there are ambiguities in the records which I have not caught. I have asked you about the ones that seemed most confusing to me.

Can you think of anything else that you would like to add for the record?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; I believe that the record is rather complete. There are no missing documents from this official record. The photostatic copy contains everything that is in the original record.

And I do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary court-martial records.

Mr. ELY. But you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention during your testimony today?

Colonel FOLSOM. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. All right.

In that case, Colonel, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much for giving your testimony. It has been very helpful.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GEORGE DONABEDIAN

The testimony of Captain George Donabedian was taken at 2:15 p.m., on May 1, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. ELY. Will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain DONABEDIAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Please be seated.

My name is John Ely. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

Is it correct that I have provided you with copies of these documents?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes.

Mr. ELY. Under the Commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony.

You were not given 3 days' notice.

However, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice requirement.

Captain DONABEDIAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Captain George Donabedian, Medical Corps, U.S. Navy.

Mr. ELY. And what position exactly do you hold?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Staff medical officer, Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. You are an M.D., is that correct?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; I am.

Mr. ELY. How long have you held the position of staff medical officer?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Since July 1959.

Mr. ELY. Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, had you ever heard of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Captain DONABEDIAN. No; I had not.

Mr. ELY. You, like Lieutenant Colonel Folsom, were called in to give us some help in interpreting the records of Lee Harvey Oswald--in other words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the man.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Right.

Mr. ELY. I will show you now a document which I have just labeled "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1."

(The document referred to was marked "Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1" for identification.)

Mr. ELY. Doctor, could you tell us generally what this document is?

Captain DONABEDIAN. This is taken from the health record of the marine.

Mr. ELY. It is, in other words, a photostatic copy----

Captain DONABEDIAN. A photostatic copy of a medical document which each military person has. We have the physical examinations on entrance, and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service, which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the inoculations he receives.

Mr. ELY. I have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper right-hand corner. Because it was previously part of a larger document, Commission Document 82, the pagination of Donabedian Deposition Exhibit No. 1 runs from 132 through 171.

Doctor, I would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page 147 of this exhibit, and dated July 12, 1958.

Could you explain it?

Captain DONABEDIAN. "Bleeding from the rectum. For the past 1 month has noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. This a.m., one to two drops bright red blood dropped into stool. Bowel movement light brown and very hard. Examination."

Mr. ELY. The copy at that point becomes illegible.

Captain DONABEDIAN. "Slight irritation and moderate." Anyway, they gave him treatment with mineral oil.

Mr. ELY. And what was the overall diagnosis?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Hemorrhoids was the diagnosis.

Mr. ELY. And what did you say the treatment was?

Captain DONABEDIAN. The treatment was mineral oil, rectal suppository.

Mr. ELY. All right. I would like to show you now an entry which is on page 40, but which is chronologically later than the one to which we just referred, and that is the entry dated----

Captain DONABEDIAN. 10-6-57. "Urethritis acute. Nonvenereal."

Mr. ELY. Before we get into that, could we discuss the entry of 10-10-58?

Captain DONABEDIAN. "Sigmoidoscopy." I don't know what this number is, unless the number of the procedure. They discharged this man on 10-13-58.

Mr. ELY. Do you believe that relates to the hemorrhoids?

Captain DONABEDIAN. He may have had some trouble with the lower bowel, or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding.

Mr. ELY. I would like at this point to refer you to pages 152 through 156 of this exhibit.

I shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning.

Captain DONABEDIAN. On 9-10-58, slight burning on urination. "Has urethral discharge."

Mr. ELY. Well, if you cannot read it, there is no point----

Captain DONABEDIAN. Then they took a smear.

Mr. ELY. What is the purpose of a smear?

Captain DONABEDIAN. A smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present.

And on 9-23-58, report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. A culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. And the sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that particular bacteria that is causing this. And erythromycin was the drug of choice.

On page 154, on 16 September 58 he evidently went to one of the outlying dispensaries, and they said "Send to the mainside for smear," which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear taken.

September 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They sent him to the lab for a smear.

And here it says, "Gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular morphological resembling neisseria gonococci."

Mr. ELY. Could you tell us, Doctor, generally, what that means?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which causes gonorrhea. And it says here morphologically resembling this germ--since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to prove this or disprove it.

And here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like 400,000 units, four times a day, for 3 days, and said "Return on Monday in the p.m., for a repeat smear."

Then on September 30, 1958, "Still has profuse discharge, somewhat clearer, received course of penicillin ending 2 days ago."

In other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. So for this profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, four times a day, and return Monday for smear and culture.

Then on September 22----

Mr. ELY. I believe the last item was September 20.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Then September 22, 1958, urethral discharge, and it says "September 23" underneath--"urethral discharge, smear and culture."

The smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. The culture showed micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. This is the type of bacteria that gives a dark-greenish color discharge.

Mr. ELY. Does either the results of the smear or the results of the culture say anything about whether or not Oswald had gonorrhea, or can we tell?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Not in this one.

The one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea--on the 16th.

Mr. ELY. We would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out, you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear rather than a culture?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Most of the doctors use this. They may take a smear, and they find that--intra and extracellular diplococci, they treat the patient for gonorrhea.

Now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue chloromycetin," I guess it is four times a day. Yes; it was four times a day. And then continue four times a day. And something was given. And they wanted him to return again. I cannot tell what this is. Instructions, probably. Some instructions were given.

On September 29, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a smear. And that was--"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were noted."

The note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much heavy lifting." They must have given him light duty for 3 days. "To repeat smear, 1 week."

October 6, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge. They took a smear. The report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive cocci."

This is not gonorrhea. "Heavy discharge with occasional burning. Has been doing heavy lifting recently."

"Some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the urination"--although this says dysurea--"has been doing heavy lifting recently."

October 24, 1958, the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave him pyridium, one tablet five times a day--one gram five times a day.

No--"return in 5 days."

They just gave him pyridium, and "d" means to duty, and return in 5 days.

"Smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram positive cocci noted."

The next date is hard to tell. Something--"qid for for 5 days."

The next thing is hard to tell.

Mr. ELY. All right. That entry is illegible.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Page 156. He was admitted to the sick list, 9-16-58, diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." This is No. 0303. And in handwriting----

Mr. ELY. That is my handwriting, so we will disregard that.

Captain DONABEDIAN. The chief complaint is urethral discharge. "Present illness. Patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging sensation on urination. Past history--previous venereal disease. Physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn discharge from the urethra. Laboratory. Smear reveals gram negative intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling gonorrhea."

Unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not absolutely be certain.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that under this previous history column it mentioned "previous VD." Does that mean that Oswald had had it prior to this time?

Captain DONABEDIAN. At another time, in his past, whenever that would be. It could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't notice in these records. But he could have had it before he came in the service. VD could be any venereal disease. There are five different kinds.

Mr. ELY. But you have not seen any reference in his medical records to any prior case during his military career?

Captain DONABEDIAN. No; except those that we reported within those dates.

Treatment was procaine penicillin, 900,000 units, intramuscularly for 3 days.

Now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like 400,000 units. It is most apt to be 900,000 units.

Mr. ELY. It should be noted page 156 contains typewriting rather than handwriting as the other one did. And I believe this entry on page 156 is something of a summary.

Captain DONABEDIAN. This is a summary. He was admitted on 9-16-58, and discharged on the same day. But they readmitted these VD cases for statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have been in contact with this. And he was sent to duty under treatment and observation.

Mr. ELY. Would it be fair to say, Doctor, summarizing your testimony as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a typical case of gonorrhea?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Yes; it does.

Mr. ELY. Nothing extraordinary about it? But it certainly does seem that he did have gonorrhea at this point?

Captain DONABEDIAN. Right.

Mr. ELY. These medical records also contain entries relating to the gunshot wound received by Oswald in connection with the .22-caliber pistol he had stored in his footlocker. I believe those entries are self-explanatory. Also, in filling out his own forms on physicals, Oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he was a child. This, also, I think, is something we don't have to go into at this point.

Doctor, I will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned which seems to you extraordinary--anything over and above the normal marine's complaints.

Captain DONABEDIAN. No; not offhand. He had a sore throat, which many boys have in the service. He had a cold. And he had one other infection, otitis media, in 1957.

Mr. ELY. That reference appears at page 150.

Captain DONABEDIAN. And they give him penicillin, 600,000 units, 5 days.

I see nothing else.

Mr. ELY. In that case, Doctor, we will thank you very much for helping to explain these records for us.

Captain DONABEDIAN. Thank you.

AFFIDAVIT OF JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO

The following affidavit was executed by James Anthony Botelho on June 3, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, _County of San Benito, ss_:

I, James Anthony Botelho, 820 West Alisal Street, Salinas, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from January 8, 1957, to January 8, 1960. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald from about March to September 1959, while we were both attached to Marine Air Control Squadron No. 9, Marine Corps Air Facility, Santa Ana, California.

Oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to Cuba to train Castro's troops because of the money he would earn.

I shared a room with Oswald for approximately two months prior to his discharge. He was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless spoken to, and his answers were always brief. He seldom associated with others.

Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe he said was published in San Francisco. It was common knowledge that Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines kidded him by calling him "Oswaldskovich". Once, when I called him up "Oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that I refer to him as "Oswaldskovich". At times Oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to "American capitalist warmongers."

At times I discussed Communism and Russia with Oswald. My impression is that although he believed in pure Marxist theory, he did not believe in the way Communism was practiced by the Russians. I was quite surprised when I learned that Oswald had gone to Russia.

Generally, Oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either unironed or sloppily ironed.

As far I know, Oswald seldom left the post. On one occasion he and I went to a movie in Santa Ana; on other occasions we walked around Santa Ana.

Although Oswald did a good deal of reading, I do not remember what sort of books he read. We both enjoyed classical music. I still have some of the classical records we purchased together. I recall that he particularly enjoyed Tchaikovsky's "Russian War Dance". Oswald played chess with both me and Call. Oswald was not a very good chess player, although he was better than I was.

It was my impression that Oswald was quite intelligent. He performed his job no better and no worse than the average Marine; he made no effort to obtain perfection. His superiors had to "keep after him" in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. This surveillance made him all the more belligerent. In my opinion, one was likely to get better results from him by treating him politely.

I do not recall Oswald's engaging in any fights, except for nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks.

It is my impression that Oswald's clearance was taken away from him; for this reason, I believe he was made company clerk at Santa Ana. I believe that before Oswald requested his hardship discharge, the Sergeant Major was planning to take steps to "straighten Oswald out."

Although Oswald may have drunk at times, I never observed him to be intoxicated.

I do not remember Oswald's studying Spanish or German nor do I recall any remarks concerning his religious beliefs.

I remember Oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke Russian. I believe Oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason unable to get in touch with her thereafter. I have no recollection of his receiving any visitors.

Signed this 3d day of June 1964, at San Juan Bautista, Calif.

(S) James Anthony Botelho, JAMES ANTHONY BOTELHO.

AFFIDAVIT OF DONALD PETER CAMARATA

The following affidavit was executed by Donald Peter Camarata on May 19, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CALIFORNIA, _County of Santa Cruz, ss_:

I, Donald Peter Camarata, 601 Burlingame Avenue, Capitola, California, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That Lee Harvey Oswald and I were concurrently stationed at the following military installations while we were both members of the United States Marine Corps: Keesler Air Force Base in Biloxi, Mississippi; the Marine Air Stations at El Toro and Santa Ana, California, and possibly the Naval Air Station at Jacksonville, Florida. Although I served in the Far East, Oswald and I were not in the same unit at that time.

While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played records of Russian songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks.

Either en route back to the United States or subsequent to my return, I heard a rumor to the effect that Oswald had been in some way responsible for the death of Martin Schrand. I have no personal knowledge of any such involvement. I do not remember who told me of this rumor, and am not even certain that I heard it from more than one person.

Oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other Marines. I would not characterize Oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he simply did not often choose to be with his fellow Marines off post.

Oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. Although he apparently resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average Marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. However, he generally followed such orders.

Although I have no firm impression of the level of Oswald's intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe he was intelligent.

I know from rumor that Oswald received a newspaper printed in Russian. I was informed by my fellow Marines that one of his superiors--either the First Sergeant or a Lieutenant--asked Oswald why he read this paper.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying or speaking either Spanish or German: of any remarks on his part concerning Communism, Russia, or Cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women on his part; or of his receiving any visitors.

Oswald was nicknamed "Oz".

Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at Santa Cruz, Calif.

(S) Donald Peter Camarata, DONALD PETER CAMARATA.

AFFIDAVIT OF PETER FRANCIS CONNOR

The following affidavit was executed by Peter Francis Connor on May 22, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF CONNECTICUT, _County of New Haven, ss_:

I, Peter Francis Connor, 27 Flaum Drive, West Haven, Connecticut, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That, while I was in the Marine Corps, I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. I observed that he was not personally neat. I remember that while Oswald was in Japan, he wore an expert rifleman's medal.

I never heard Oswald make any anti-American or pro-Communist statements. He claimed to be named after Robert E. Lee, whom he characterized as the greatest man in history.

Although Oswald engaged in several fights--one of them with a Robert Demurs--I have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was.

Oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow Marines, nor did they choose to associate with him. He often responded to the orders of his superiors with insolent remarks.

I have no recollection to how much Oswald drank.

I was of the opinion that Oswald was intelligent. He read a great deal, but I do not remember what sort of books he read.

Oswald was nicknamed "Harv." This was a shortened version of his middle name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it.

I have no recollection concerning Oswald's religious beliefs, his attitude toward women, or what he did off post.

Signed this 22d day of May, 1964, at West Haven, Conn.

(S) Peter Francis Connor, PETER FRANCIS CONNOR.

AFFIDAVIT OF ALLEN D. GRAF

The following affidavit was executed by Allen D. Graf on June 15, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF NEW YORK, _County of Erie, ss_:

I, Allen D. Graf, 31 East Utica Street, Buffalo, New York, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from 1948 to 1961. While stationed in California, I was Lee Harvey Oswald's Platoon Sergeant.

Oswald often complained about the Marine Corps; he seemed to me to resent all military authority. He also seemed narrow-minded, refusing to listen to the views of others.

Once, at the rifle range, I had a long discussion with Oswald concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the Marine Corps. He explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to eat. He felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a premature age. He remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around."

Oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring Communism or opposing capitalism.

It was difficult to judge the level of Oswald's intelligence, because he seldom stated his opinions. However, with regard to his job in the Marine Corps, Oswald learned quickly.

Oswald went to a great many movies, and did not often engage in sports.

It is my recollection that Oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in the "high expert" range.

Oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper--if indeed he had a temper--in check.

I have no recollection of Oswald's studying foreign languages; of where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. Nor do I remember his having any dates.

Signed this 15th day of June, 1964, at Buffalo, N.Y.

(S) Allen D. Graf, ALLEN D. GRAF.

AFFIDAVIT OF JOHN RENE HEINDEL

The following affidavit was executed by John Rene Heindel on May 19, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF LOUISIANA, _Parish of New Orleans, ss_:

I, John Rene Heindel, 812 Belleville Street, New Orleans, Louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from July 15, 1957, until July 15, 1961. I was stationed at Atsugi, Japan, with Lee Harvey Oswald.

I recall that Oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of authority.

While in the Marine Corps, I was often referred to as "Hidell"--pronounced so as to rhyme with "Rydell" rather than "Fidel." This was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. It is possible that Oswald might have heard me being called by this name; indeed he may himself have called me "Hidell." However, I have no specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name.

Although I generally regarded Oswald as an intelligent person, I did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or international affairs.

While in Japan, Oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming intoxicated. He was willing to do so because he did not greatly care whether or not he got back to the post on time.

Oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow Marines.

Oswald generally went on liberty by himself; I therefore do not know what his activities off post were.

I do not recall Oswald's being called by any nicknames.

Although our Marine Air Group was sent to Formosa for a period of time, I am unable to remember Oswald's being there.

Signed this 19th day of May, 1964, at New Orleans, La.

(S) John Rene Heindel, JOHN RENE HEINDEL.

AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID CHRISTIE MURRAY, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by David Christie Murray, Jr. on May 15, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF FLORIDA, _County of Duval, ss_:

I, David Christie Murray, Jr., 1419 Pinewood Road North, Jacksonville Beach, Florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say:

That I served in the United States Marine Corps from approximately October, 1956, to October, 1959. I served with Lee Harvey Oswald in MACS-9 at the Lighter Than Air Station at Santa Anna, California. Part of the time I was stationed at Santa Anna, I was married and therefore during that time lived off the base. While at Santa Anna, I served also with a Marine named Nelson Delgado, whom I had previously known while I was stationed at Parris Island, South Carolina. My impression is that at this time Delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts.

Oswald did not often associate with his fellow Marines. Although I know of no general explanation for this, I personally stayed away from Oswald because I had heard a rumor to the effect that he was homosexual. I personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am not sure that I heard it from more than one person. Oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual.

Oswald complained about orders given him more than the average Marine