Part 9

Mr. BELIN. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the suspect in the car.

Mr. HILL. Officer Bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right rear.

Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat on that side.

Mr. BELIN. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?

Mr. HILL. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.

Mr. BELIN. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.

Mr. HILL. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. When did he identify this to you?

Mr. HILL. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's"

Mr. BELIN. When did he do that?

Mr. HILL. As soon as he handed it to me.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. HILL. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already in the car and seated.

Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?

Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before?

Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.

Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully?

Mr. HILL. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.

Mr. BELIN. Who put that name in there?

Mr. HILL. I did.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do that?

Mr. HILL. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?

Mr. HILL. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.

Mr. BELIN. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; that is what it says.

Mr. BELIN. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or something "C15" on it, too, is that right?

Mr. HILL. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that is.

Mr. BELIN. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in the car, he handed this gun to you?

Mr. HILL. Right, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was said and what was done?

Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.

Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?

Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.

All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever mark those?

Mr. HILL. I can say that I marked all six of them.

Mr. BELIN. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a dash behind it.

Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third floor.

Mr. BELIN. What is that?

Mr. HILL. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.

Mr. BELIN. When was it removed?

Mr. HILL. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until we arrived at the station.

Mr. BELIN. Who took it out of the gun?

Mr. HILL. I took it out of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your initials?

Mr. HILL. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed them.

Mr. BELIN. Was this an empty shell or live bullet?

Mr. HILL. That is a live round.

Mr. BELIN. For what caliber?

Mr. HILL. A .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked Q-177.

Mr. HILL. That appears to be Q-177.

It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH running together, the initials CK on it also.

It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit 145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself.

Was this also something that you took out?

Mr. HILL. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that identification.

I see the markings on this--let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.

I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?

Mr. HILL. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to be Q-79.

It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's near the identification number that are legible.

And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is apparently on some of the others.

Mr. BELIN. Do you see your name on that?

Mr. HILL. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the shell.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of bullet is that?

Mr. HILL. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored coating on the lead inside the bullet.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-78.

Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with which I marked it.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-80.

Mr. HILL. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification number Q-80.

The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on it. And this one also is a plain lead shell.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there?

Mr. HILL. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number.

On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on this shell by me.

This is a .38 lead slug.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143?

What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed?

Mr. HILL. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as Commission Exhibit 143, by me.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession?

Mr. HILL. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at this point.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill.

You stated that this gun was handed to you by----

Mr. HILL. Detective Bob Carroll.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

After he handed you--handed the gun to you, will you tell us what happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you can, what happened in the car?

Mr. HILL. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, and turned left onto Zangs.

Within, I would say seconds--this is just a guess--after we got in the car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he got on the radio.

I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and weapon and are en route to the station."

Mr. BELIN. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, "Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the station." Was that----

Mr. HILL. Well, that would have generally been--that would have been----

Mr. BELIN. Would have been you?

Mr. HILL. That would have been me.

Mr. BELIN. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the No. 2 on it?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this point----

Mr. BELIN. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, "Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have been possibly right.

Mr. BELIN. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre."

And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight."

Did you say that?

Mr. HILL. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him?

Mr. BELIN. That is 531-550-2?

Mr. HILL. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. HILL. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Then it goes to 550.

Mr. HILL. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher.

Mr. BELIN. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." And then 531-2-3.

Mr. HILL. That would have been the dispatcher talking to----

Mr. BELIN. Someone?

Mr. HILL. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. BELIN. Two and three?

Mr. HILL. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made.

And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we had 223, who was Walker--that is Walker's call number, and 492, which was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me.

And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick up 223 car and take it back.

Mr. BELIN. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you advised who was in the car?

Mr. HILL. With us en route to the station.

Mr. BELIN. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was at 1:52 p.m.?

Mr HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?

Would that have been someone else?

Mr. HILL. That probably is R. D. Stringer.

Mr. BELIN. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?

Mr. HILL. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn't have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

Mr. BELIN. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in the car?

Mr. HILL. The suspect was asked what his name was.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. HILL. He never did answer. He just sat there.

Mr. BELIN. Was he asked where he lived?

Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."

Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.

I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.

And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.

Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?

Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.

Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. All right; when did you learn of his address?

Mr. HILL. There were two different addresses on the identification.

One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?

Mr. HILL. The man didn't answer.

Mr. BELIN. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station?

Mr. HILL. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is."

After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in a movie."

Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman."

And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," or something to that effect.

Mr. BELIN. Something to what effect?

Mr. HILL. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact words of it, I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right; then what was said?

Mr. HILL. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was carrying a pistol in a movie."

We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this--I did, before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to.

He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to.

And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be ashamed of."

And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him.

Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us.

Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.

At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in.

Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold on to it until later."

I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.

We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.

He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man named Lee Oswald."

And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees."

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."

And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.

Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.

I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.

He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.

This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself. And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.

I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.

By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.

The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.

When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.

Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.

And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.

Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.

Mr. BELIN. Were they there at the time?

Mr. HILL. They were there. They got there inside where we were about the time he was being handcuffed.

Mr. BELIN. All right, let me go back a minute now.

You left the suspect in the custody of homicide?

Mr. HILL. Right.

Mr. BELIN. In what office was he left?

Mr. HILL. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the homicide and robbery bureau office.

Mr. BELIN. Who was in there with him when you left?

Mr. HILL. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner.

However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office?

Mr. HILL. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain Fritz immediately in front of him.

Mr. BELIN. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left?

Mr. HILL. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner.

Mr. BELIN. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was Fritz'?

Mr. HILL. As far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in Irving?