Part 84

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your full name.

Captain LAWRENCE. Perdue [spelling]. P-e-r-d-u-e William Lawrence [spelling], L-a-w-r-e-n-c-e.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Lawrence?

Captain LAWRENCE. 1623 South Clinton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Captain LAWRENCE. In August--1911--August 18.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed with the Dallas Police Department?

Captain LAWRENCE. I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what is your rank?

Captain LAWRENCE. Captain of police.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long have you been with the police department?

Captain LAWRENCE. Nineteen years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you captain of police on November 22, 1963?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in charge of any particular department?

Captain LAWRENCE. Traffic at this particular time. I am in charge of the accident prevention bureau of the Dallas Police Department, but my specific assignment was traffic control for the Presidential motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a special 1-day assignment that you had?

Captain LAWRENCE. Well, in this particular case--it was for this particular occasion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any other person in the department who regularly was concerned with what you call traffic control?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; Capt. R. A. Thompson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why you handled the traffic control responsibilities for the Presidential motorcade rather than Captain Thompson?

Captain LAWRENCE. None that I know of; none that I can think of except that Chief Batchelor saw me and said, "I want you to get together with Lieutenant Southard." Lieutenant Southard works for Captain Thompson and we were to use my motorcycle officers and his corner men, so, because of the motorcade part of it, I assume that this was the reason that it was turned over to me. Normally on parade or a special assignment and such, this is under the jurisdiction of Captain Thompson, but because of the escort part of it, I am assuming that this was why it was given to me. I would like to also add that Captain Thompson and I work evenings on alternate Friday and Saturday nights, and I was scheduled to work daytime hours on Friday, November 22, and this may also be a reason I was given this particular assignment. Captain Thompson did work evenings on Friday, November 22, 1963, and Saturday, November 23, 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you participated in other traffic control projects in the past?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been involved in one that involved the President of the United States or any other important official who required special protection?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I had not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your experience in the Dallas Police Department, had there ever been a time when there had been a President or an important person who had come through who required special protection?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; but not in which I was directly assigned to any duties. When President Kennedy came to town to visit Mr. Rayburn at Baylor Hospital, Lieutenant Curtis was in charge of that detail and I don't know if I was on a day off or what it was, but I was not in charge of that detail at all. I made none of those arrangements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From whom did you receive your instructions in connection with the duties that you were to carry out?

Captain LAWRENCE. My immediate superior was Deputy Chief R. H. Lunday, and I received my instructions from Chief Lunday and Asst. Chief Batchelor; both of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you first told that you were to be in charge of this traffic control?

Captain LAWRENCE. The first day was on a Tuesday--November 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who told you at that time?

Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did Chief Batchelor tell you at that time that your responsibilities would be?

Captain LAWRENCE. He told me he wanted me to go over this route and to start working with the assignments of men to the intersections on the motorcade route, and he said that he had gone over this route and handed me a list of intersections that he wanted covered and the amount of men he wanted on each intersection and the reason he wanted more than one or two at certain intersections was because of the turning movements of the motorcade, but he also wanted assignments made to certain overpasses and told me the number of men that he would like to have stationed on the overpasses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you the names of the particular men he wanted on the overpass?

Captain LAWRENCE. He gave me the names of no men. He told me to make the assignments, and when he handed me this list, he was either with Chief Lunday or I went immediately to Chief Lunday and asked for the assistance of Lt. W. F. Southard because he--his men would be directly involved also in these assignments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice you have a list in your hand. Is that the list Chief Batchelor gave you?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's the list that Chief Batchelor gave me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you mind if we marked this and returned this for our file?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; not a bit. I would like to add that it was not requested that I bring any papers with me. I did bring with me some original personnel assignment notes for the purpose of refreshing my memory, and I see no reason why my superiors would object to any requests made by this Committee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now turn this over and I will state for the record that it consists of five small white sheets of paper, roughly 2-1/2 by 5 inches in size, and there are a number of handwritten notations on it and I'm going to mark this on the back.

Captain LAWRENCE. I believe this to be the handwriting of Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I'm going to mark this Capt. P. W. Lawrence Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1. In handing this memo to you, did Chief Batchelor say anything to you about what the men on the overpass were supposed to do?

Captain LAWRENCE. He was stationing the men on the overpass to see that no one else came onto the overpass so that no one would be over the motorcade when the President passed under it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than stationing people at intersections, were you given any instructions as to stationing men in between blocks?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after the 18th of November did you later receive further instructions from your superiors?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, sir, I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you next receive instructions?

Captain LAWRENCE. I next received instructions well, during the week we discussed this with Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor--certain assignments as far as the motorcycle escorts were concerned, and not directly at that time regarding stationing of any men on any particular corner.

I might add that when Lieutenant Southard and I went over this route, we found one intersection open and which was on Record Street, which raised our total--this is my writing here [indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, this is at the bottom of the second page and you have written in the word "Record."

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right--that's my handwriting and during that week I was next told, of course, to contact other people regarding the route connected with the motorcade to see that no trains would be coming across at the time that the Presidential motorcade was passing through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These were grade crossings that you are talking about?

Captain LAWRENCE. Grade crossing--yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of your first meeting with Chief Batchelor were you given any special instructions about the protection of the President?

Captain LAWRENCE. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the next time you received some instructions from one of your superiors?

Captain LAWRENCE. The next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the motorcade assignments--possibly 2 days before the President arrived--I asked how we would escort this motorcade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And with whom did you discuss that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Chief Lunday and Chief Batchelor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody from the Secret Service present at that time?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not at that time--no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you told about the purpose of the officers that were being provided, if anything?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was told that there would be these lead motorcycle officers, and that we would also have these other officers alongside the President's car and the Vice President's car, and some of the others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time I had prepared a list of 18 solo motorcycle officers, this included three solo sergeants.

I was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached Stemmons Expressway, Chief Batchelor told me that he wanted a solo motorcycle officer in each traffic lane, each of the five traffic lanes waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on Stemmons Expressway would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle officers to pull away from the escort and get up there on Stemmons Freeway and block the traffic, and some of these officers, he stated, would pull past the Presidential car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this include blocking oncoming traffic?

Captain LAWRENCE. This would stop all oncoming traffic on Stemmons Freeway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All the way to the Trade Mart?

Captain LAWRENCE. No, sir--this would stop all traffic that would be northbound on Stemmons, on--all northbound traffic on Stemmons Expressway, in the five lanes of traffic, so when the motorcade came onto the freeway, that no cars would be able to pass it, that the motorcycle officers would stop the traffic, and then the motorcycle officers after all the motorcade was headed for the Trade Mart, that then these motorcycle officers would slowly move up, but they would keep all the traffic behind--all the northbound traffic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, the southbound traffic would be permitted to run in the southbound lanes?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that conversation take place?

Captain LAWRENCE. That conversation took place about the 20th of November--2 days before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in charge of the security for the Secret Service. This was the first time I had attended any conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and I listened in on most of the discussion and I heard one of the Secret Service men say that President Kennedy did not desire any motorcycle officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he would want the officers to the rear. This conversation I overheard as Chief Batchelor was using a blackboard showing how he planned to handle this--how plans had been made to cover the escort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the President?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the Trade Mart than any other place and Captain Gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then chief Stevenson, I believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were they to be looking for?

Captain LAWRENCE. They were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. I assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when I was called up there, these people were already meeting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any instructions as to what the men were to do whom you stationed at the various intersections and elsewhere along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; I discussed this with Chief Lunday two or three times and Chief Batchelor two or three times before this meeting ever took place and we discussed the fact that maybe some demonstrators with placards might show up and that the officers stationed along the route should be instructed to be on the alert for any persons that might throw anything or make any movement that might endanger the President at all, and if there were any incident of that nature, that the person would be arrested immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any discussion between you and your superior officers about watching the buildings and windows in the buildings or the tops of the buildings?

Captain LAWRENCE. No, no instructions were given to me about my men watching the buildings--no, so, mine were more crowd control instructions--to watch the crowds, to keep them back, and to block off the traffic and to block off the streets on the approach of the motorcade and not to let them by--and to keep the crowds back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other men who were going to have other responsibilities?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes, it was my understanding that the other responsibilities in regard to security were to be handled by the special service bureau and the members of the criminal investigation division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they going to be stationed along the routes?

Captain LAWRENCE. It was my understanding that they would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever informed as to how many men would be in each particular location?

Captain LAWRENCE. I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With specific reference to Dealey Plaza and the area of Elm and Houston and the School Book Depository, did you have any idea of how many Secret Service or detective bureau people or CID people would be in that area?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever receive any advice or instructions from any member of the Secret Service about watching buildings or performing other functions other than the normal crowd controls which you have just mentioned?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you met with the Secret Service, what do you recall that the Secret Service did discuss?

Captain LAWRENCE. I sat in on the discussion and I did not participate in any at all, and from what I heard there would be sufficient personnel inside the Trade Mart--they were discussing this, and these detectives' assignments were not the ones that I was at that time primarily instructed in, so--I know that they had made some elaborate precautions, which no one discussed with me, but I don't remember all of the conversation that went on regarding that. I was particularly interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones that I was listening for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that the Secret Service man in there--when it was mentioned about these motorcycle officers alongside the President's car, he said, "No, these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward the car, if there was any movement at all where the President was endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun their motors and get between them and the Presidential car," and he mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and those words were mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But was that concept of the security and the safety of the President spelled out in any certain details?

Captain LAWRENCE. Not to my knowledge. Now, you see, I'm not familiar with some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau commanders. Now, I didn't know until that time who was going to be in charge at the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time is that that you have reference to?

Captain LAWRENCE. Sometime between 5 and 6 p.m. on November 21. I knew at that time that Captain Souter would be in charge, and when I was so advised, after this meeting I asked Souter if I could meet him down at the Trade Mart, and discuss how the motorcade would come into the Trade Mart, and they had discussed also about keeping an area open down there and it had also been discussed with me--I might add one thing that I had forgotten to say before--that there would be two officers remain with the Presidential car while he was in the Trade Mart. This was told to me by Assistant Chief Batchelor--to the best of my knowledge.

After this conference, I asked Captain Souter if I could meet him down at the Trade Mart and he said he would be down there and then I called Sgt. S. Q. Bellah [spelling] B-e-l-l-a-h. I called him on the phone at home and asked him if he could meet me down there because he was going to be the leading solo motorcycle sergeant. He met me at the Trade Mart with Stavis Ellis, another solo motorcycle sergeant, who was going to be leading the Presidential motorcade and I met with both of them down there on the evening of the 21st, so that I would know how they would come in the area and how they were to be escorted around in the area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said, that your principal concern then was keeping the motorcade moving smoothly?

Captain LAWRENCE. That's right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was no special attention brought on your part to the question of actually protecting the President other than from some impediment to the actual movement of the automobile.

Captain LAWRENCE. Mainly--my understanding was mainly that my assignment was for crowd control and, of course, security would be involved in it, as far as anyone making any movements in the crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you prepare a list of the assignments that you gave in stationing your men along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. I did and I might add another thing that I have overlooked here, that Chief Batchelor had also instructed me to have one man on a three-wheel motorcycle--to station this one man over the Stemmons overpass at Industrial, to make sure that no car stopped and no people stopped there who would be in a position to throw anything down when the motorcade came off of Stemmons Freeway to make its turn onto Industrial, and there would be a three-wheeler up there and he had specifically instructed me on that, which to me was security as well too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you given any general instructions to go out and look along the route for special security problems that might arise along the route?

Captain LAWRENCE. No; I was not, but I did do this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do in that regard?

Captain LAWRENCE. This is getting ahead, but after the detail was put out in the detail room and I had talked to the motorcycle officers and the motorcade officers and had given them their instructions, I then went out to Love Field with Maj. George Tropolis of the police reserves who is in charge of the police reserves and awaited the arrival of the President and to see that all the motorcycle officers were at the proper location, I had already given a copy of the detail to each one of the sergeants and their instructions and when we were out there at the airport, the weather cleared up and the officers put their raincoats, of course, in the motorcycle saddlebags and when the Presidential plane arrived and President Kennedy got off of the plane, I saw that there was going to be a brief ceremony there, and I knew that Chief Lumpkin was going to--I had been told was going to be ahead of this motorcade--I got in my car and tried to be a few blocks ahead of him to make sure that everybody was on their assignments, and, of course, the crowd, the huge crowd en route surprised me, especially in the residential area, that all the people had turned out to see the President. I didn't expect a crowd this big, and, of course, we had officers stationed at many intersections along the route, but not at every intersection until we got to the downtown area. Not every intersection was covered, but as I went along the route, this didn't look like it was necessary because the crowds already had blocked the streets, and no motor vehicle could have crossed some of these streets. As I came up to many of these intersections--I slowed my car down and I was in uniform, but I was driving a plain car which I drive, and I told the officers to keep the traffic in back of me moving and not let any vehicles cross because I could hear Chief Curry on channel 2 giving the location of the motorcade from time to time, and I knew a few blocks ahead of him would be Chief Lumpkin, and I knew that I would have to stay considerably ahead of him. Although I was not given this assignment--I proceeded on this route, and I followed it on down to the Trade Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did you first give instructions to the men who were actually stationed along the route as to what they should do?

Captain LAWRENCE. I gave them those instructions on the morning of November 22 and I had with me at the time--I had the detail with me and some notes that I had written. I first told the men the approximate time of the arrival of the President's plane at Love Field. Then, I went over the route that the motorcade would take to the Trade Mart and then the approximate time they were scheduled to be at the Trade Mart and then to leave for Love Field.

I stated that there would be some assignments which we would call assignment No. 1, assignment No. 2 and assignment No. 3. Some officers would only have one assignment and some would have two and some would have three, and that these assignments would be given to them by Lieutenant Southard, that there would be supervisors stationed along the route, cruising the route, and would be able to assist them. I then covered the supervisory assignments, telling them where these sergeants would be stationed along the route, and if anything came up they were to contact them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The men you assigned, from the instructions that you gave them, what would you expect that these men would do besides simply keep people from running out into the motorcade of cars?

Captain LAWRENCE. They are crowd control--for the motorcade to move and I also gave the men instructions that it would be no violation--for persons to carry placards, that we expected very little of this, but that they were to be alert to any unusual movements in the crowd so that no one threw anything at the President, that there would be no repetition of the Ambassador Stevenson incident, that President Kennedy was the President of the United States and entitled to the courtesy and protection of this office, and it was their duty to see that this was done, and if there were any violations of the law of any type, that they would arrest individuals immediately, and these were the specific instructions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if a man, captain, one of your men was placed at a station--was actually standing out there and acting pursuant to these orders, first of all, let me ask you what direction would he be looking; would he be looking toward the street or would he be turned around and facing the crowd?