Part 78

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?

Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.

Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. I don't remember; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.

Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?

Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I don't recall who the officer was.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?

Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and checking the cars.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not?

Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. It is back off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.

Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. They merge.

Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?

Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think the Commission should know.

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WELCOME EUGENE BARNETT

The testimony of Welcome Eugene Barnett was taken at 3:50 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNETT. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney for the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Pursuant to the rules of the Commission governing the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. I know you did not get the 3 days' notice because of schedule difficulties that we had, and you were just advised of it this morning, I believe. I assume, however, that since you are here, that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without having an attorney.

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. BARNETT. Welcome Eugene Barnett.

Mr. LIEBELER. When and where were you born?

Mr. BARNETT. July 12, 1932, New Hope, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are apparently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department, isn't that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Dallas police?

Mr. BARNETT. Eight and a half years.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that you were assigned to the area of Elm and Houston Streets on November 22, 1963; is that correct?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you received instructions to go there, when you received them, what you were told, and what happened? Would you tell us what happened on that day, in other words?

Mr. BARNETT. We made detail around 9 o'clock. We were instructed to be at our assignments at 10. We were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and I was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at the President's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the President came by. Then when the President came by, I heard three shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back, you got to the area around 10 o'clock; is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go when you got there?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, there were three of us assigned to that one corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other officers?

Mr. BARNETT. Who were the other officers?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BARNETT. J. D. Smith, and another officer named Smith. I don't know his initials. E. L., I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you divide your duties among yourselves when you got there, or had you been specifically instructed as to what each one was supposed to do?

Mr. BARNETT. We divided our duties.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you do that?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, as best I remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. We were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which corner did you station yourself at? I have a picture here of an aerial view--you can sit down--Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Of course, you can recognize the intersection of Elm and Houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not?

Mr. BARNETT. I was right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. At No. 1?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty much into Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. To stop the traffic that was coming?

Mr. BARNETT. South on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. South on Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; Elm Street is so wide, and I helped these officers here stop this traffic here.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have written the No. 4 on here before and it is kind of hard to read. You also helped to stop the traffic that was coming down here in the area of No. 4, which would have been the traffic on Elm Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was standing right about this position right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right about No. 8?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically, were you given any instructions when you left that morning when you made detail, to observe and scan the windows of the buildings around that area?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; we weren't, but that is just one thing you always do. It is understood that you have the buildings to watch.

Mr. LIEBELER. But there were no specific instructions given to any of the officers, so far as you know, when they left that morning, about watching the windows in the area?

Mr. BARNETT. I don't see any use in being instructed on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, regardless of that fact----

Mr. BARNETT. There was no instructions; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now from where you were standing at position 1 prior to the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on the entire south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building; were you not?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at those windows?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you look up at those windows before the motorcade came? Can you tell us with what frequency?

Mr. BARNETT. I looked up twice. Maybe once at 11, probably a few minutes after 11--probably a few minutes after 11. It was raining part of the morning, and when I found out that the people in the building were going to come outside and watch the President, I looked up at the building, and then I looked at all the buildings, and there were no windows that I noticed open then. But after a few minutes before the President came by, I didn't look any more. I started watching the crowd.

Mr. LIEBELER. So just before the motorcade approached, you moved over and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd, so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade came?

Mr. BARNETT. I couldn't. I was too busy. [Referring to picture.] I got this in the wrong place. It needs to be about this position right here, instead of here. I was right here. I got it too far, but I could see the President's car from the position I was, so I had to be right here [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. You are satisfied you were further out into the intersection?

Mr. BARNETT. Right there [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking]. In the general vicinity of No. 9?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that right?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. BARNETT. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any echo in the area from where you were standing?

Mr. BARNETT. What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides the shots?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. BARNETT. No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there would be nothing else until the next shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of the shots hit the President?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, when the first shot--I was looking at the President when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down, but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was ducking then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9, you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks?

Mr. BARNETT. One or two officers. Two officers, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BARNETT. That is all I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to where they came from?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think about them?

Mr. BARNETT. When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from?

Mr. BARNETT. Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; because I was standing too close, was the reason. And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building. To me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building?

Mr. BARNETT. I ran to the back of the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ran down Houston Street?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?

Mr. BARNETT. It is around the corner from Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go in the building?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down, and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to the door.

I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You thought they had been fired from the top of the building?

Mr. BARNETT. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the fire escape?

Mr. BARNETT. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building?

Mr. BARNETT. Not a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you went around behind the building?

Mr. BARNETT. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the building and I saw officers going west.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going west down that little street there in front of the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here searching.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on our Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. BARNETT. When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming back toward me, started back toward me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were still back near the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, J. D. Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't actually go into the building at the time?

Mr. BARNETT. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out?

Mr. BARNETT. It was around 2-1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2-1/2 or 3 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you let anybody out of the building after you got there?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; until they were authorized.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and out?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let them out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it was possible that people could have left the building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and Officer Smith stationed yourselves there?

Mr. BARNETT. When I went to the door to get the name of the building, there were people going in and out then.

Mr. LIEBELER. There were?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was as quickly as 2-1/2 minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? Do you think it was that quick?

Mr. BARNETT. I believe it was 2-1/2 minutes probably from the time I ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes. Then it took me 20 or 30 more seconds before I got to the front there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So your recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door?

Mr. BARNETT. Three minutes at the most.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else?

Mr. BARNETT. Sergeant Howard.

Mr. LIEBELER. You remained there at the door for how long?

Mr. BARNETT. Until 3 o'clock. Close to 11:30 to 3--close to 12:30 to 3.

Mr. LIEBELER. At which time you were relieved from duty?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; from that position I had to go back to my regular assignment at Commerce and Akard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime?

Mr. BARNETT. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, on television?

Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all?

Mr. BARNETT. None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that intersection.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to any other officer in the department that remembers seeing him in the area at all?

Mr. BARNETT. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time?

Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, I heard other officers that went up in the building and talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Officer Baker was one?

Mr. BARNETT. I haven't talked to the officer.