Part 77

Mr. HOLMES. Now, he could have filled that out here. It could have been mailed to New Orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. He could have mailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed it. But they would have had to enclose it in an envelope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in Dallas, Tex., and just as sure as anything it has a New Orleans postmark on it.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; prior to the Dallas one, if we read the New Orleans one correctly.

Mr. LIEBELER. The New Orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an October postmark.

Mr. HOLMES. That is the reason I wanted you to read the memo, because the hours are down there and are different from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the New Orleans Post Office inspector, or an inspector in the office of New Orleans, has advised you that Oswald filled out a form 3575?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the regular forwarding order.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he did that on September 24; is that correct? Or September 25?

Mr. HOLMES. September 24.

Mr. LIEBELER. September 24, 1963, and his box down there was closed on September 26, presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to them under postmark of September 24, 1963. Now has the Post Office Department in New Orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you can tell, concerning this Post Office Department Form 3546, which we have marked Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A?

Mr. HOLMES. No; other than their postmark on there. There is no endorsement there. But you see, Lafayette Station is in New Orleans, and it looks like that was completed by the person at Lafayette Station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Inasmuch as that is exactly what it says.

Mr. HOLMES. If that were completed in some other post office, they wouldn't know that box was in Lafayette Station.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence that Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it?

Mr. HOLMES. No; that is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting.

Mr. HOLMES. That is my opinion, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office filled this form out?

Mr. HOLMES. They could have done it over a telephone instruction, long-distance telephone call.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, they could have done that from the records they had in their possession, because he already had filled out a Post Office Department 3575 instructing to forward mail from Post Office Box 30061 to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, which they had received, of course, on September 24?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in any event, we will add this to the pile.

Mr. HOLMES. It is an original card.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show Mr. Holmes has delivered to us the original card which has been marked as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A.

I don't think I have any other questions. I have cleared up the basic problems we had. Of course, you managed to raise a few more, and I appreciate that. Thank you very much. As I understand it at this point, Mr. Holmes, you have given to us or to the FBI, all of the papers that you found so far in your files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; you have every original document or item that I have come in contact with in this business.

Mr. LIEBELER. Between us and the FBI?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now it may be as you suggested----

Mr. HOLMES. Except Ruby's.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have given us a copy?

Mr. HOLMES. I have given you a good clear photocopy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. If you do come across any other papers in your files----

Mr. HOLMES. I will get in touch with Martha Jo [Stroud, assistant U.S. attorney in Dallas, Tex.].

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; let us know. Thank you a lot again.

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Frazier. I believe you have already appeared before the Commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his activities; is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you two or three questions that were not asked you when you appeared before the Commission. Your name is Buell Wesley Frazier?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the same Buell Wesley Frazier, as I understand, who has previously testified before the Commission about Lee Harvey Oswald and about how Oswald rode back and forth with you from Irving to Dallas; isn't that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think he came with you to work on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified in Washington that on that particular morning you saw Oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into the Texas School Book Depository Building and that also you saw that package in the car; isn't that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you described that package and you told us about what you saw in detail at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald with the package similar to the one you saw on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald carry a package from Irving into the Texas School Book Depository Building that looked anything like the package he had on November 22, 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him with a package that looked like that package any other time or at any other place?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOE MARSHALL SMITH

The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3-1/2 years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told.

Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office?

Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?

Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally?

Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings?

Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?

Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?

Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when I arrived at the scene.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Three of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?

Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?

Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?

Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.

Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which the shots were fired?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street?

Mr. SMITH. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston?

Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?

Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?

Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows?

Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.

Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.

Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?

Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.

I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the--let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you heard the shots?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?

Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?

Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--I don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?

Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.

Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?

Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?

Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.

Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait--let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.