Part 74

Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all?

Mrs. BAKER. Just a policeman and several people were down there around the tracks working.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the assassin?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard at the time?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building at all while you were standing there?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the windows in that building?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the interview that you gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you came up and said he saw everything; is that so?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have been later that afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all this?

Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission Exhibit No. 354.

Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had been sitting?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up real high--I presume he was up there on top.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce all come together?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down here--when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce.

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza?

Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't sound like it was too far off.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly from the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. Let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker, if we can.

Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle around it and its right in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On Elm Street in the right-hand lane.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere?

Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of Elm Street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of Elm Street toward the Dealey Plaza.

Mrs. BAKER. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across Elm Street there appears to be another tree just down from the wall.

Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there.

Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there?

Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign.

Mrs. BAKER. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the corner of Dealey Plaza closest towards the School Book Depository Building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here--between the sign and the tree.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and I have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of our record?

Mrs. BAKER. [Complied with request of Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you look at that picture and see if you can tell from it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the spot where the bullet hit?

Mrs. BAKER. It would be back in here behind this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been where you were standing or where the bullet hit?

Mrs. BAKER. I really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but it was right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as we look at this picture this is Baker Exhibit No. 1, starting from the left front, there are--there is a car down there and there is a Volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there are two cars immediately behind the Volkswagen and then there is a convertible out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think you might have been standing somewhere behind the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Either there or right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right in back around the second car behind the Volkswagen?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area and the trees that lie between Elm Street and the little street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository, doesn't it?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, where that thing might have hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It may not be in this picture--I don't know that it is.

Mrs. BAKER. I just can't tell--I would say it was over in here somewhere in this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Somewhere in about here?

Mrs. BAKER. It could have been further on up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will mark the place "X", but you think it might have been right along here or somewhere farther down. Now, is there a concrete divider somewhere here on Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Not until you pass the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not until you get down here towards the underpass and then there are concrete dividers here between Elm Street and Main Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Back up here toward the intersection at Houston Street, there is a curb on the side of Elm Street and that's all?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, you turn down from Houston Street and go right on down Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the second shot; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure of that?

Mrs. BAKER. I hope I am--I know I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. In marking the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 that we marked, we were assuming, were we not, that the "X" was fairly near the first sign on the right-hand side of Elm Street going toward the triple underpass after the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. I think that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think that we will find that the "X" is--well, it is very difficult to tell the exact spot from which Baker Exhibit No. 1 was taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from the side of Main Street toward Commerce Street, then the "X" would not be in the right place, would it, if this lampost here that appears in the picture is actually at the end of the grassy spot made by Main Street and Elm Street, then the "X" that we have on Baker Exhibit No. 1 would be too far down toward the Triple Underpass to be in the right place where you saw it hit, isn't that right; do you follow me?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot, if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between Elm Street and Main Street, this "X" is very close to the Triple Underpass.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the street, did you?

Mrs. BAKER. No; not that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been much closer, up towards the Texas School Book Depository Building--near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. This right here are the steps--to the plaza.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer to the triple underpass than we had originally thought, because in the left-hand side of the picture you can see the steps coming down from the plaza.

Mrs. BAKER. It must have been right here in this area because these were the steps--I can't tell which sign is which, but I know there were four girls standing near the sign and it must have been back up here because there must have been another sign closer up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Hudson Exhibit No. 1, which was taken at the time of the assassination, it shows Dealey Plaza here and there are some steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture and they go down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past Elm Street here.

Mrs. BAKER. This would be the first sign here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign.

Mrs. BAKER. This one over here--the steps are already here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the steps are toward the background in Hudson Exhibit No. 1 and those appear to be the steps that are also toward the front left of Baker Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. BAKER. It was probably back over this way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, so the "X" on Baker Exhibit No. 1 is actually in the wrong place as far as these pictures here--it is not correct--it should be further back on up here.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will put a "Y" back up here toward the School Book Depository Building, and actually if you look at Commission Exhibit No. 354, you can see the steps coming right down to Elm Street.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the end of Dealey Plaza toward the Triple Underpass, and I think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left front foreground of Baker Exhibit No. 1.

Mrs. BAKER. That's the sign right in there--that big sign there, and I don't know--the sign would be here, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right, and the sign that we see in the very left front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward the Triple Underpass from the steps to go down to Dealey Plaza on the right-hand side of Elm Street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; this is confusing.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a bullet, it would have been the first shot?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anything else around the area of the Texas School Book Depository Building that day that you think might have anything to do with the assassination?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone passed out and I guess it would be to the left, coming down Elm Street over in this plaza between Elm Street and Main, because an ambulance pulled up and picked someone up--we never could tell who. This was before the motorcade ever got to Houston Street--I would say onto Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how long before the motorcade came did this ambulance come and pick up this person?

Mrs. BAKER. I'll judge--5 minutes--about 5 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The ambulance had already left the area about 5 minutes before the Presidential motorcade came?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you come to work that morning; do you remember?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, it could have been 6:30 or 7, because I rode with daddy; my daddy works behind the Depository for the Katy Railroad and if he had to be there at 6, then I got there at 6, but that morning, I couldn't tell you, but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's when I had to be there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Oswald on the morning of November 22 at any time?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Billy Lovelady?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 203, and I call your attention to a man standing in the doorway of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize him?

Mrs. BAKER. That looks like Billy.

Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like Billy Lovelady?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the picture to the right of the mark "A" in the picture?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And is standing directly against the side of the doorway of the building--of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. If you don't have anything else you would like to tell us about this that you think we should know and that I haven't asked you, I have no other questions at this point.

Mrs. BAKER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. ALTGENS

The testimony of James W. Altgens was taken at 12:45 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ALTGENS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Altgens, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one. If you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all right. You are entitled to 3 days' notice and you may actually have gotten 3 days' notice, but if you did not, I presume you are prepared to go ahead, since you are here?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; as a matter of fact I had more than 3 days' notice because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an additional week, so I had plenty of time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. ALTGENS. James W. Altgens [spelling], A-l-t-g-e-n-s.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. ALTGENS. 6441 Pemberton [spelling], P-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n Drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed here in Dallas at the present time?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity?

Mr. ALTGENS. Officially, I am hired as a wire photo operator, but they use me in three different classifications. I am a photographer and a news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. ALTGENS. The Associated Press, Dallas Bureau.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed by the AP?

Mr. ALTGENS. Approximately 26-1/2 Years.

Mr. LIEBELER. So one might say you are an experienced photographer and have a little experience in the area of photographic work?

Mr. ALTGENS. I would assume so.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born, sir?

Mr. ALTGENS. April 28, 1919.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. Here; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived most of your life here in Dallas?

Mr. ALTGENS. All except my service connected time.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have been advised that on November 22, 1963, you were assigned to take pictures of the Presidential motorcade; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do that?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of November the 22d?

Mr. ALTGENS. Would you like for me to take it from the time that I arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALTGENS. I arrived on the triple overpass at approximately 11:15 a.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad tracks that cross over Elm, Commerce, and Main Streets?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. As they run near the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. As well as in the opposite direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALTGENS. My original assignment was to make a pictorial scene of the caravan with the Dallas skyline in the background and the triple overpass was selected as the site for making that picture, and when I arrived on the triple overpass there was no one up there but two uniformed policemen and one of the uniformed policemen came over to me and asked me if I was a railroad employee and I told him, "No," and I showed him my press tag and told him I had a Department of Public Safety ID card showing I was connected with the AP--Associated Press, and he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but this is private property. It belongs to the railroad and only railroad employees are permitted on this property." And, I explained to him that this was a public event and I thought I would be privileged to make a picture from that area, and he says, "No. This is private property and no one but railroad personnel are permitted in this area."

This is a little extraneous but I wanted to point this out, and I said, "Well, it looks like you have got it pretty well protected from this area because I see you two uniformed policemen on this overpass and I see you have another uniformed policeman on the overpass on Stemmons," and he said, "Yes, and no one is permitted over on that overpass." So, then, I had to decide on another location for shooting my pictures, so I proceeded on across the triple overpass into the parking lot which is just behind the Book Depository Building and proceeded on down to Elm to the corner of Elm and Houston, crossed Elm going--is that east or south--I guess it is south on Houston. Yes; south on Houston over to Main and Houston. That seemed to me to be the most likely spot to make any pictures. Then I could, by advance planning, get away from that spot after I had made a picture or two and run across the Dealey Plaza and catch the caravan again down on Elm as it proceeded toward the triple overpass and probably get some more pictures, and that was my planning.

Well, I was at that site when the Presidential caravan arrived at that intersection.

Mr. LIEBELER. That intersection being the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets?

Mr. ALTGENS. Houston and Main.

Mr. LIEBELER. Houston and Main?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes; Houston and Main. When the caravan reached Houston and Main I made at least one shot--one picture--I don't have the roll of film with me now so I don't know exactly, but I know I had made an additional one or two pictures of the caravan coming down Main Street prior to that, but I got the one picture with the President waving into the camera. Mrs. Kennedy was looking at me at the time, just as I got ready to snap it the north wind caught her hat and almost blew it off, so she raised her left hand to grab her hat and I did not get her looking into the camera, but I got the Governor and Mrs. Connally and the President with the President waving into the camera.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was as they turned?

Mr. ALTGENS. This was as they turned into the sunlight.

Mr. LIEBELER. Turning into Houston Street; is that right?

Mr. ALTGENS. Turning right--headed toward the Book Depository Building.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right.

Mr. ALTGENS. I thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that I carry my extra lenses in and ran fast down across the Dealey Plaza to get down in front of the caravan for some additional pictures and I took this one picture----

Mr. LIEBELER. Wait just a minute now--at this point, as you ran across, you were along Elm Street; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Well, I ran across and reached up into--well, the curb area on the west side of Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir; and if I had a picture I could probably show you exactly where I was standing. I did show it to Agent Switzer, if that would be of any help to you.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I would like to locate that spot. I show you Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing.

Mr. ALTGENS. This is the Book Depository Building, correct?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

(The witness points to the School Book Depository Building.)

Mr. ALTGENS. This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated a spot along the side of Elm Street which I have marked with a No. 3; is that correct?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I that approximately where you were standing?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning from Main Street to the right on Houston Street, you then ran across this Dealey Plaza?

Mr. ALTGENS. Down this way; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Along the lawn part.

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the point marked No. 3 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?

Mr. ALTGENS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And at that point did you take another picture?

Mr. ALTGENS. I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much of course--at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.