Part 73

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking you what the police did.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your affidavit.

Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked to?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this tape recording is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before?

Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's voice on the tape now is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city police.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the officer roll the window down.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?"

You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with me?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my work.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that he was from the police department; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape?

Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking.

Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a man answered the telephone.

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he was from the police department when he called?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.]

Mr. LIEBELER. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you want me to look at?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show you--I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time and I don't know what it even means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, 1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas 21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr."

We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't have any trouble identifying it in the future.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Just my initials?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; just your initials.

(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It gives a post office box is all I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or anything like that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs--you never know who it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--RI 9-3195; did you notice that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I called that number off of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whose number that is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I believe it was either the police department--I don't know, but I called.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also have a telegram you want me to look at?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what you think about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows:

"Dear Mrs. Markham:

"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report on the findings of the Warren Commission.

"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction and will contact you personally concerning our request.

"I look forward to talking with you.

"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service U.S. Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319."

When did you receive this?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well----

Mr. HOWLETT. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this--she called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, was engaged with the Commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that right, as he indicated?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Now, this man--Buck Pennington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever you think--he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you think it would be all right?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to.

Mr. LIEBELER. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he thinks you should do.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Would you write that address down?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward.

Mr. HOWLETT. That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do that or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will handle that aspect of it.

Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that correct?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do anything like that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; may I use a pencil?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I just wrote Markham down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't have any other questions at this time.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, that just worries me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Because he told me he was from the police department. It never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I was going to get fired if I didn't get back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, will I get in any trouble over this?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to the telegram].

Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That was dirty in that man doing that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I would think that's right.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he's not no better than Oswald--that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD BAKER

The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BAKER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were married on February 1, 1963?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else?

Mrs. BAKER. That's me.

Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs. Donald S. Baker?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November 24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but you had already been married at that time; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. I married this year.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964?

Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964--I'm sorry.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964.

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Last year?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him around the building?

Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at all?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what you did?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, we came out of the building across the street at approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President waved and he got down----

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the motorcade came along?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front of the Depository and then there is--I don't know what you would call it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not?

Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't--I have never seen one.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with some trees on it; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes Elm Street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a triangular plot of grass.

Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in the street--Elm Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street that runs right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass.

Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle, is that Main Street?

Mrs. BAKER. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were standing?

Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that the Texas School Book Depository is located?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the pavement.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise came from when you first heard it?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there where he was--where the President's car was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time you heard the first noise?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it had gone when you heard the first shot?

Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President?

Mrs. BAKER. Not too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard the first shot; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture there?

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right."

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see that sign?

Mrs. BAKER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing?

Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.

Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.

Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first sign?

Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit the street--what did it look like when you saw it?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you saw hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side--near the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?

Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane--I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?

Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?

Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right.

Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets?

Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. BAKER. Three.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware that they were shots?

Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?

Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza--the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind there--this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and we didn't see anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what you mean?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street that runs in front of the School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right?

Mrs. BAKER. Yes.