Part 72

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the President looked toward his left; is that correct? Toward the side of Elm Street that you are standing on, or which way?

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although I couldn't say.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. In order to clarify some of the discussion we have had about the various number of slides, I want to mark a set of your slides as Willis Exhibit No. 1 and I have initialed a set of these, Mr. Willis, with my own initials, and I will ask you to do the same thing for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about when we refer to this exhibit.

(Mr. Willis marks initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We have already established that the picture that has been marked as Hudson's Exhibit No. 1 is a print made from the negative or from slide No. 5 on Willis' Exhibit No. 1; is that correct?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about the time the President was shot?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes; I did, after the third shot was fired.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody up there? Did you see anybody up there on those railroad tracks?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; I had noticed before the President's arrival that there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did see policemen up there?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among the spectators.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how many spectators would you say were up there? Was there a big crowd?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. But I would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe 2 dozen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired from that direction?

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. I saw people falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Across the street from Elm Street?

Mr. WILLIS. Across the street from Elm Street on the same side as the School Book Depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when I started to ring this building. I knew it came from high above directly across the street from me, and that is the one thing I was absolutely positive about.

Mr. LIEBELER. You made that judgment from the sound of the shots?

Mr. WILLIS. From the sound, absolutely. And this may be verified by the fact that I took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I notice.

Mr. WILLIS. I had no doubt about that, because I was that certain in my own mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any other questions about these pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about.

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of the presidential car.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is that far in the background, way in the back of the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street?

Mr. WILLIS. Yes; that would be the background.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think I would like to ask your daughter about three or four questions about what she saw of it. We might just bring her in while you are still here.

TESTIMONY OF LINDA KAY WILLIS

The testimony of Linda Kay Willis was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you as a witness. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Miss WILLIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I told your father, I am an attorney for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and I wanted to ask you two or three questions about that.

First of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please?

Miss WILLIS. Linda Kay Willis.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?

Miss WILLIS. I will be 15, July 29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father has told us that you were out in front of the School Book Depository Building along with your sister on the day of the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that correct?

Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there?

Miss WILLIS. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building?

Miss WILLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there?

Miss WILLIS. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"?

Miss WILLIS. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just stay right there, or did you go on down Elm Street?

Miss WILLIS. I stayed there. I was on the corner across from the courthouse when the motorcade first came down Main Street, and when it turned the corner on Houston, well, I followed along the street with the car, and then he turned the corner on Elm and I stood there where the Stemmons sign is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the President get hit in the head?

Miss WILLIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually saw the President get hit that way?

Miss WILLIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far away would you say that you were when you saw that?

Miss WILLIS. Oh, about twice as far as I am from here to this door. Maybe not quite that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. About 25 feet or so?

Miss WILLIS. About that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you saw the President get hit in the head, did you hear any more shots after that?

Miss WILLIS. Yes; the first one, I heard the first shot come and then he slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in the head.

Mr. LIEBELER. You only heard three shots altogether?

Miss WILLIS. Yes; that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you don't think there were any more shots after he got hit in the head?

Miss WILLIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots right away?

Miss WILLIS. No; when the first shot rang out, I thought, well, it's probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the President is in town. Then I realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then when I saw, when I realized that the President was falling over, I knew he had been hit. But I didn't know how badly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, I just wanted to ask you about whether you heard any shots after the President got hit in the head, and if you didn't hear any more shots, that is really all I wanted to ask you about. Thank you very much.

Miss WILLIS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF HELEN MARKHAM

The testimony of Helen Markham was taken at 10 a.m., on July 23, 1364, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony for the Commission pursuant to authority granted it by the President in Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the Commission because you have already testified before the Commission in Washington; is that right?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the Kennedys--President Kennedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer Tippit?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure, I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some questions about some of the things you told the Commission when you appeared before it on March 26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony before the Commission.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from New York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you, "Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr. Ball asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr. Ball asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?" And then you answered, No, sir."

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember giving that testimony at that time?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I haven't--I haven't never seen the man in my life.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to Mark Lane?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in here, I wouldn't know who he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never talked to him over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you were in Washington, before today?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me they were reporters, came to my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking to him yourself?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never even talked to her even.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation between you and Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript which we will mark as Markham Exhibit No. 1----

Mrs. MARKHAM. Let me tell you now----

Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make arrangements--I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so you can tell us whether or not that is your voice?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice.

Mrs. MARKHAM. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let me tell you this--there was someone one day--this was all to me--I was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore mentioned]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he told me he was from the city.

Mr. LIEBELER. From here in Dallas?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told me he was--now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was Captain Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the police department of the city of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a number, a telephone number--do you remember the telephone number at your office where you worked; were you working?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what the telephone down there is?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a number as that that you know of?

Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called this number here, Matthew 7-6797.

Mrs. MARKHAM. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I worked at was Riverside 8.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to know that.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he was from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me call the Secret Service.

Mrs. MARKHAM. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape.

Mrs. MARKHAM. All right.

(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m., as follows:)

Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you, Mrs. Markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the telephone some time ago?

The COURT REPORTER. How much of this tape recording do you want on the record here?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want any of this on the record now; however, I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape.

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I'll watch this.

(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, Mrs. Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record here begins with the question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began indicating her reactions.)

"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have your affidavit which you gave the police on that date.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would be good enough to talk to me?"

Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape recorder, Mrs. Markham.

John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to indicate by that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape?

Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked to no woman or no man like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you following it along, Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact transcript of the recording?

Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it says, Mark Lane. No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I got--nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize your voice here on the tape.

"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell you that." I don't have the time to.

"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had bushy hair.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that.

"Mr. LANE. You did not say that?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short.

"Mr. LANE. He was short?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy.

"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy.

"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather bushy kind of hair?"

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy.

"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.

"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did they bring you down to look at him?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup.

"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him.

"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup?

"Mr. LANE. Yes.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not.

"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing.

"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot Officer Tippit?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket.

"Mr. LANE. Yes.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers.

"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh.

"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not.

"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was closed--pretty close too.

"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned on it and placed his arms up against the car.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window.

"Mr. LANE. In the window?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all.

"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.

"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.

"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever it was, walked over to the car?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.

"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.

"Mr. LANE. He did what?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.

"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.

"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?

"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.

"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.

"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, because, you see, he leaned over in the window.

"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.

"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.

"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.

"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.

"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like that?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.

"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your affidavit, right?

"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point.

Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.

The REPORTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you mean by that?

Mrs. MARKHAM. This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with somebody?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from me. That was my boss that told me--the one that said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police department?

Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because--you see--I had got a call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this man. Now, he told me that.