Part 68

Mr. ADAMS. How did it come about that the remains of President Kennedy were taken to the naval hospital?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was my understanding that the President would be taken to a hospital. I don't recall any discussion of the reason specifically other than my assumption that the autopsy would take place at one of the military hospitals in Washington. And obviously there were two to select from, and the President being an ex-Navy man, it seemed just sort of normal to suggest Bethesda.

Mr. ADAMS. And you remained with Mrs. Kennedy during the entire trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did.

Mr. ADAMS. What was her condition?

Mr. O'BRIEN. She conversed a great deal with us. The one impression left with me from the entire trip and conversations with Mrs. Kennedy during the trip, participated in by all of us, was her great concern for us, really--her feeling that we had, as she put it, been with him at the beginning and we were with him at the end. We were all bereft. And I am afraid that the four of us who felt that we should be of some comfort to her were inadequate to the job in the sense that it was difficult for us to come up with anything that made much sense by way of being helpful.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any other general subjects of discussion as you made the trip up?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. What happened when you arrived?

Mr. O'BRIEN. A lift was placed at the rear door of the plane. The honor guard came up the front steps, through the plane, to the back compartment. We concluded that we would take the body off the plane.

Mr. ADAMS. You say "we." You mean Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and yourself?

Mr. O'BRIEN. General McHugh. And so we proceeded to do just that. We took the--lifted the coffin, with the help of the crew people, and placed it on the lift, and it was taken from there.

We--the three of us--four of us--McHugh was with us--got into a car. The Attorney General and Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance, if that is what it was. And we followed in a car directly behind that, went out to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. What did you do when you arrived there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We went immediately to an upper floor of the hospital, where we joined members of the President's family. General McHugh went elsewhere. And we then spent several hours in these rooms on, I don't know what floor of the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. When you referred to the President's family, what particular members were there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Mrs. Stephen Smith was there.

Mr. ADAMS. Mrs. Attorney General Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. I don't recall all the members of the family. The Attorney General--and there were--there was an occasional person that came and went during the night But that was basically the group.

We had coffee and received reports from time to time from General McHugh as to the length of time it would take for the trip from Bethesda to the White House. And the hours went on and on, until the early hours of the morning--perhaps 4 a.m.

Mr. ADAMS. And then what did you do?

Mr. O'BRIEN. We came to the White House, at which point several members of the White House staff, Mr. Shriver, were awaiting the arrival of the President. He was placed in the East Room. A brief prayer was given, and that terminated the evening.

Mr. ADAMS. I would like to ask you to go back again and give me your recollections of the President's views about the nature of the protection that should be afforded him, or what his attitude was towards security.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall any specific conversation I had with the President in this area. All I can say is that the President at all times was most interested in close contact with his fellow Americans, and in that sense he was quick to move to a fence that separated him from the people, he was quick to move towards people. He certainly moved quite freely. But I do not recall ever having a conversation or being present during the course of a conversation when the specific protective measures were discussed or what his views were relative to them.

Mr. ADAMS. Other than what you have said here, do you have any knowledge at all about the person who did the shooting, whoever it might be?

Mr. O'BRIEN. None whatsoever.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you have any other thing I have not covered that you would like to put in this record?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so. I believe that to the best of my recollection I have tried to carefully review all aspects of the matter, from departure from the lawn of the White House to arrival back at the White House. And I cannot call anything to mind now that I might have overlooked.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, finally, it is a custom in this Commission to make transcripts available to the witnesses if they want to read them before signing them, or if you would like you can waive that. That is entirely up to you.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would like to have the transcript.

Mr. ADAMS. Then we will send it along in the next few days, and when you have an opportunity to consider it, if you will just send it back to the Commission we would appreciate it.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I certainly will.

Mr. ADAMS. That closes this deposition.

AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID F. POWERS

The following affidavit was executed by David F. Powers on May 18, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_:

I, David F. Powers, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 21 and 22, 1963.

I traveled to Texas with the Presidential party on November 21, 1963, on AF-1. After a stop in Houston, we spent the night in Fort Worth, Texas. On the evening of November 21st, we were discussing the size of the crowd in the Rice University Stadium at Houston, and the President asked me how I thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was there. I said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came to see him before but there were 100,000 extra people on hand who came to see Mrs. Kennedy. President Kennedy then made a comment to Mrs. Kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that seemed to make her happy, although at that particular moment she was very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and on motorcades.

The next day we proceeded on to Dallas and arrived at Love Field at approximately 11:30 a.m. The President and Mrs. Kennedy were in high spirits and as they were leaving the plane I jokingly remarked to the two of them that they looked like Mr. and Mrs. America and that they should not both wave in the same direction as it would be too much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. They were the first to leave the Presidential plane (AF-1) and were greeted by Vice President and Mrs. Johnson (whose plane had already arrived at Dallas), along with other members of the Dallas reception committee. President and Mrs. Kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was standing behind an iron fence. I was assigned to ride in the Secret Service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the President's car in the motorcade. That Secret Service follow-up automobile was an open car with two Special Agents in the front seat, two Special Agents in the rear seat and two Special agents on each of the two running boards. I sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and Kenneth O'Donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car.

The crowd in Dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. In my opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas in 1960. Kenneth O'Donnell and I were observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate the local political situation. President Kennedy was sitting on the extreme right-hand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and Mrs. Kennedy was seated on the extreme left of the back seat. They were seated at the opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to the crowds on each side.

As we proceeded through Dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of occasions, but I do not believe it ever stopped. When we passed through the heart of Dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. We then turned off of Main Street onto Houston and made the sharp swing to the left up Elm Street.

At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m., which was the time we were due at the Trade Mart. I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart. Shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. I noticed then that the President moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. There was a second shot and Governor Connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the President's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. The total time between the first and third shots was about 5 or 6 seconds. My first impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but I also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple overpass. This may have resulted from my feeling, when I looked forward toward the overpass, that we might have ridden into an ambush.

At about the time of the third shot, the President's car accelerated sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. Mrs. Kennedy climbed onto the back of the car. Perhaps she may have been looking for help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. I think Special Agent Clinton Hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade.

We proceeded at a high rate of speed to Parkland Hospital. Upon arriving at the emergency entrance, I raced over to where President Kennedy lay and Special Agent Hill and I, along with Special Agent Kellerman, placed him on a stretcher. The three of us and Special Agent Greer pushed him into the emergency area. I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy the entire time at the hospital. She went in and out of the emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a chair right outside the emergency room door. I believe Ken O'Donnell went to call the Attorney General as soon as we arrived at the hospital.

I accompanied the President's body and Mrs. Kennedy on the trip from the hospital to the airport. Some seats were removed from a rear compartment of the President's plane and the casket was placed there. On the trip back to Washington, Mrs. Kennedy refused to change her clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. Upon arriving at Andrews Air Force Base, Mrs. Kennedy declined to take a helicopter to Bethesda Naval Hospital but instead chose to ride with President Kennedy's body in the hearse. Kenneth O'Donnell and I stayed with Mrs. Kennedy and the other members of the President's family at Bethesda until the early hours of the morning on November 23, 1963.

Signed the 18th day of May 1964 at Washington, D.C.

(S) David F. Powers, DAVID F. POWERS.

AFFIDAVIT OF CLIFTON C. CARTER

The following affidavit was executed by Clifton C. Carter on May 20, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, _ss_:

I, Clifton C. Carter, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of November 22, 1963.

Vice President Johnson and I had been in Texas during the week preceding November 22nd, and we had met the party of President Kennedy in San Antonio, Texas, on Thursday, November 21, 1963.

I was on the Vice President's plane (AF-2) when it landed at Dallas Love Field on November 22 at about 11:30 a.m. Vice President and Mrs. Johnson left their plane and joined the reception party which greeted President and Mrs. Kennedy, who arrived in the President's plane (AF-1). President and Mrs. Kennedy then shook hands with people in the crowd along an iron fence. While the Presidential party greeted the crowd, I went to the automobile where I was to ride in the motorcade. It was a Secret Service vehicle assigned to follow and protect the Vice President. Our car was right behind the Vice President's automobile, which was immediately to the rear of the Presidential Secret Service follow-up car, which drove right behind the President's automobile.

The automobile in which I rode was driven by a Dallas policeman. I sat in the middle of the front seat and held some radio equipment on my lap. Special Agent Jerry D. Kivett sat on my right and Special Agent Len Johns and someone else were in the rear seat. This was an unmarked Dallas police car.

Nothing unusual occurred on the motorcade route from Love Field to the downtown Dallas area. The crowds were very large and very friendly, except for two or three signs which contained derogatory comments about President Kennedy. I would estimate that the crowds were twice as big as they were in September of 1960 when Mr. Kennedy campaigned in Dallas. The motorcade slowed down at times, but I do not believe that it stopped.

The motorcade proceeded west on Main Street, made a right-hand turn onto Houston and then swung around to the left on Elm, proceeding slowly at about 5 to 10 miles per hour. At approximately 12:30 p.m., our car had just made the left-hand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building when I heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. Special Agent Youngblood, who was seated on the right-hand side of the front seat of Vice President Johnson's car immediately turned and pushed Vice President Johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the Vice President with his body. At that instant Mrs. Johnson and Senator Yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the Vice President, bent forward. Special Agent Youngblood's action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots.

I distinctly remember three shots. There was an interval of approximately 5 to 6 seconds from the first to the last shot, and the three shots were evenly spaced. The motorcade promptly accelerated and traveled at high speeds up to 75 to 80 miles an hour to Parkland Memorial Hospital. The President's automobile, the President's follow-up car, the Vice President's automobile, and the Vice President's follow-up car pulled into the emergency entrance at Parkland. Attendants from the hospital with two stretchers carried President Kennedy and Governor Connally into the hospital. At one point I briefly helped remove Governor Connally from the car onto the stretcher. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally had been taken into the hospital, Vice President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Special Agent Youngblood and I entered the emergency area and were taken to a small room where we waited. I went out on a couple of occasions to secure coffee. Congressmen Henry Gonzalez, Jack Brooks, Homer Thornberry and Albert Thomas came into the room where Vice President Johnson waited. About 1 o'clock Mrs. Johnson left the room, stating that she wanted to visit with Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally.

At 1:12 p.m. Special Agent Emory Roberts brought the news that President Kennedy was dead. At that moment the only people present were Vice President Johnson, Congressman Thornberry, Special Agent Len Johns, and I. Special Agent Roberts advised Vice President Johnson to return to the White House forthwith because of the concern of the Secret Service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate Vice President Johnson as well as President Kennedy.

Vice President Johnson then asked that Kenny (O'Donnell) and Larry (O'Brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning promptly to Washington. Kenny and Larry came down and told Vice President Johnson that they agreed he should return to Washington immediately. Vice President Johnson then asked me to try to alert some of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to Washington. I then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, and I was later driven to Love Field by a young Dallas policeman. By the time I returned to the Presidential plane (AF-1), Vice President and Mrs. Johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had already been made to have Vice President Johnson sworn-in as the President. I do not have any personal knowledge of Vice President Johnson's conversation with Attorney General Kennedy concerning the advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have Judge Sara Hughes participate in that ceremony. I was present at the swearing-in and shortly thereafter the President's plane took off for the Washington area.

The original conversations concerning President Kennedy's trip to Texas occurred on June 5, 1963 at the Cortez Hotel in El Paso, Texas. President Kennedy had spoken earlier that day at the Air Force Academy and Vice President Johnson had spoken at Annapolis. The President and Vice President met with Governor Connally at the Cortez Hotel to discuss a number of matters, including a trip by the President to Texas. Fred Korth and I were present when the three men assembled, but Fred Korth and I left during their discussion of the President's proposed trip. The first tentative date was to have the trip coincide with Vice-President Johnson's birthday on August 27th, but that was rejected because it was too close to Labor Day. President Kennedy's other commitments prevented him from coming to Texas any sooner than November 21st, which was the date finally set.

Signed this 20th day of May 1964.

(S) Clifton C. Carter, CLIFTON C. CARTER.

TESTIMONY OF EARLE CABELL

The testimony of Earle Cabell was taken at 9 a.m., on July 13, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Hon. Earle Cabell, mayor of the city of Dallas.

Mr. CABELL. Former mayor.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that right?

Mr. CABELL. I resigned in February.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which I understand was received by you on either July 8 or 9, written by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission; is that correct?

Mr. CABELL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CABELL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name for the record?

Mr. CABELL. My name is Earle Cabell.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence?

Mr. CABELL. My place of residence is 5338 Drane Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, I understand that you were formerly the mayor of Dallas, but you resigned about 2 or 3 months ago?

Mr. CABELL. I was installed as mayor of Dallas May 1, 1961, for a 2-year term. Was reinstalled May 1, 1963, upon reelection. Resigned that office on February 3, 1964, to become a candidate for the House of Representatives of the United States.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have? I simply want to get some background for the record.

Mr. CABELL. For the past 30-odd years I have been engaged in dairy products and food retailing in the city of Dallas and surrounding areas.

Mr. HUBERT. You still have that business?

Mr. CABELL. No; I am not connected with that business officially any longer. I retain my office at the former headquarters of that company, which is 4017 Commerce Street. I am on a retainer with the company in an advisory capacity.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, we are interested in a number of matters, but I think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment upon an interview of you by FBI Agents Warren Debrueys and George Carlson on December 12, 1963, which I have marked for identification as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked "Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Honorable Earle Cabell." I have signed my name under that and on each of these succeeding three pages I have marked my initials in the right-hand lower corner.

Exhibit No. 1 consists therefore of 4 pages. Mr. Cabell, I think you have had an opportunity to read this Exhibit No. 1; is that right?

Mr. CABELL. I have read it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if the exhibit, which is, as I have said, a report of an interview of you by the FBI agents named, is an accurate and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you?

Mr. CABELL. It is entirely so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any corrections or additions?

Mr. CABELL. I find no corrections or additions to make to that statement.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I would like you to state briefly just what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of Dallas, starting with you, I take it, as the top, on down at least to the police department.

Mr. CABELL. Under the charter of the city of Dallas, the city council is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the people at large as the mayor. He is the presiding officer and the spokesman for the council. The council does not have administrative responsibilities nor authority. The council is a legislative and policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other city officials or department heads.

The city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the appointment of the chief of police. The council, by ordinance, is not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct administrative action through or over any of the department heads appointed by and responsible to the city manager.

Mr. HUBERT. How many members compose the council, sir?

Mr. CABELL. Eight members, in addition to the Mayor.

Mr. HUBERT. They are elected?

Mr. CABELL. They are all elected by the citizens of Dallas at large. That is, they are all voted upon.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager, as I understand it, is appointed by the council or by the mayor?

Mr. CABELL. No; the city manager is appointed by the council, by council action.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager on November 22 through 24, 1963, was Mr. Crull?

Mr. CABELL. Elgin E. Crull.