Part 67

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't think even up to that point, as the motorcade started to move out in front of us, as each car seemed to move out from great speed, we were at all aware of--certainly we had no idea of the specific nature of the occurrence. And we just were, I think you would have to describe, very confused. I remember particularly a Negro man with a youngster in his arms running up the slope of the lawn.

Mr. ADAMS. On which side of the car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right. And that was typical of all kinds of movement, as we tried to determine what had occurred, and we just didn't know.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any radio communication in your car with the front cars?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; we did not. At that point, a photographer--we started to move a little more rapidly. Our driver intended to follow the motorcade and move out. The motorcade moved out with great speed in front of us. And a photographer jumped on the trunk of our car--it was a convertible--holding onto the edge of the seat, and pounding his fist on the trunk, and obviously in a most excited state. We did not get anything coherent from him. I do not think we really attempted to, because at that point, as he hung onto our car, obviously to try and keep up with the motorcade himself, our car moved out with great speed.

The driver lost sight of the car in front of him in a matter of two or three minutes. He had no idea where the motorcade was headed. And they, therefore, proceeded to take us directly along the highway, passed the trade mart, which was to be the location of the President's stop and speech following the parade route.

We pulled up in front of the motorcade, slowed down, and someone called out, He has been shot, he is draped over the back seat. And at that point the driver concluded that perhaps his destination should be the nearest hospital. And he started to move out with great speed toward this hospital. And as we came closer to it, it became obvious that that was our destination, because then you saw the cars, the motorcycle police, and what-have-you. As we arrived at the hospital, there was a great deal of commotion at the front.

Mr. ADAMS. I think you misspoke yourself. You said you pulled up in front of the motorcade. I think perhaps you meant to say you pulled up in front of the trade mart.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Trade mart--I am sorry.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, just to make it perfectly clear, did you see the President or Governor Connally at the moment that they were shot?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. How long would you think it took you to go from the point where you heard the shots to the hospital?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say overall it could approach 15 minutes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what was your estimate of the rate of speed of your car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say 60 to 70 miles an hour.

Mr. ADAMS. When you arrived at the hospital, what did you do?

Mr. O'BRIEN. When I arrived at the hospital, two of the Congressmen that had been in the motorcade, obviously, therefore, in a car ahead of my car, because they had arrived, came over to the car as we pulled up, and asked me to follow them immediately. There was a large crowd--I will correct that--there were many people in front of the entrance to the hospital, and the entrance was being guarded by police.

Congressman Thomas and Congressman Brooks went up to the officers at the door and said, "This is a Special Assistant to the President. Let him in." So he immediately opened the doors, and I went through, with the two Congressmen, who asked a hospital attendant inside the corridor the direction in which to go. There was a little confusion in the corridor as to direction, and we headed at first in the wrong direction, and were again rerouted. And in a matter, however, of a couple of minutes from the entrance of the hospital, I arrived behind these swinging doors with glass panels, and my first--I saw to my right sitting--yes--sitting in a chair, and to my left, in this corridor sitting in a similar chair--to my right Mrs. Kennedy, to my left Mrs. Connally.

Mr. ADAMS. You didn't go in through the emergency entrance, then? You went through----

Mr. O'BRIEN. Apparently not. I am not sure of the entrance. But I just don't know. I assume that was not the emergency entrance.

Mr. ADAMS. And you said that Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were sitting there more or less together?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No. They were sitting--obviously chairs had been placed outside the door in each instant--one door to the left as you walked through these swinging doors with the glass panels--one door to the left that was closed, one door to the right that was closed. And outside of the door--this was a fairly wide corridor that ran down perhaps through three rooms on each side, these first two rooms right and left, the President had been placed in the emergency room to the right and Governor Connally in the emergency room to the left. Both doors were closed at that moment.

Mr. ADAMS. Was there anyone with Mrs. Kennedy at the time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Powers and Mr. O'Donnell were standing there.

Mr. ADAMS. Were you accompanied all the way up to this point by the two Congressmen you mentioned before?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The two Congressmen did not go through the doors with me. They left me at some point several feet from the doors, when it was determined that I was being taken to the right location.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, at that point, you knew that--from the Congressmen and from others, that the President had been shot?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. Then did you go up to Mrs. Kennedy or Mrs. Connally, or what did you do then?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I immediately engaged Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers in conversation.

Mr. ADAMS. Can you recall that conversation?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Neither Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell had a clear idea of the situation at the moment, but Mr. O'Donnell certainly gave me a positive indication that there was little or no chance.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy at that point?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not have any conversation other than attempting to comfort her, asking her if there was anything we could do--brief moments of that nature. But conversation was extremely limited.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know where the Vice President was at that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not see the Vice President in the hospital. I was given to understand by Mr. O'Donnell he was down the corridor--again, if I did an about-face, headed across in the other direction--that he was in a room across the hall.

Mr. ADAMS. How long did you stay there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Until the President was taken from the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. You stayed there with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. During that whole time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. During that period General McHugh at one point, Malcolm Kilduff from the press staff from time to time came in and out, Mrs. Lincoln, Dr. Burkley came in and out from time to time.

Mr. ADAMS. Was Dr. Burkley also in the emergency room?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. As we stood there, they moved equipment, heavy emergency equipment into the emergency room, and there was a great deal of what you would just envision--scurrying around of nurses and doctors, a great deal of activity.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you go into the emergency room yourself?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not.

Mr. ADAMS. Taking it from the point that you arrived there in the corridor where Mrs. Kennedy was seated, how long a time passed before it came to your knowledge that the President was dead?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I cannot recall the length of time I had with specific knowledge. My impression is I had perhaps at the outset in the first seconds or minutes, I had some doubt this had occurred.

I think perhaps what happened is that it penetrated, without a specific statement by anyone. I just had to conclude this had occurred, and it became obvious. At that point, however, Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Donnell, and I were not at all sure that this had penetrated with Mrs. Kennedy for a few minutes.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember anything about a priest?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do. I recall that Mr. O'Donnell told me that he had asked the staff, or it might have been a Secret Service man, or hospital staff person--in any event--someone to immediately secure a priest. There was no priest on the premises. And he had assumed perhaps a priest was en route, because by that time the knowledge that something serious had occurred certainly had become known through police radio and what-have-you.

But the priest arrived in a relatively short time. I don't know the specific time. But it didn't seem to be an awful long time. And, as a matter of fact, my recollection is that a second priest arrived, and then a third priest.

Mr. ADAMS. And you don't know who they were?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not.

Mr. ADAMS. During this interval, between the time that you arrived where Mrs. Kennedy was seated and the time it was officially determined that the President was dead, do you recall any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No conversation other than, "Is there anything we can do for you?" Or a conversation of that nature in very brief and occasional sentences--no conversation as such.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. Powers stay with you all that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; he did.

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. Did there come a time when Mr. O'Donnell left?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell, at one point we discussed the situation--and Mr. O'Donnell at one point determined that he should cross the corridor and advise the Vice President of what the situation appeared to be at that moment. And as I recall, it was the conclusion that this was an extremely serious matter, we hadn't any formal advice or official advice on the situation, but the seriousness of it should be imparted to the Vice President.

He left briefly for that purpose, I assume, and returned to the position where we had been standing.

Mr. ADAMS. How did it come officially to your notice that the President was dead?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Again, I just don't know. It was a matter of standing for what seemed to be an interminable period of time--I have no idea the specific time--and, again, I cannot recall a specific instance when an announcement was made. It was more just finally having what gradually became obvious penetrate with you, it was, that it was an actuality.

Mr. ADAMS. How was the fact conveyed to Mrs. Kennedy? Do you remember that?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't remember a specific conversation by anyone with her. People came to her, hospital staff people, doctors from time to time that would lean down and whisper to her. I don't know whether at one of those occasions this was specifically stated. I think, again, perhaps it was just gradually we all came to a conclusion.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, at any rate, after the fact was--had, as you well put it, had penetrated, what happened next, as far as you know?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Our concern, in our discussions--Mr. O'Donnell and I discussed what should be done. Our major concern was that obviously you just could not leave Mrs. Kennedy sitting in this chair, drenched in blood. Something certainly had to take place.

In that context, we felt steps should be taken to remove the President from the hospital. And someone, either Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell, had suggested at one point during the several minutes, that Mrs. Kennedy might want to retire to a room a couple of doors down the corridor. Our attempt to bring this about was not successful, because she started to walk and then turned around and said, "I want to stay with him." And she went back to the chair.

Mr. O'Donnell, at a point in these proceedings, issued the directions to the Secret Service to secure a coffin. As I recall it, the coffin arrived in a very reasonable time. Whoever handled those arrangements certainly did it--carried out his responsibility well, because--again, time had a way of going on, and it is hard to determine a matter of minutes. But the coffin arrived, in any event, and was wheeled into the room.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell leave at this point--did he leave Mrs. Kennedy and go somewhere else, do you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. He, as I recall, again, went to the room in which the Vice President was waiting, to tell him specifically that the President had died, and to discuss with him the steps to move the Vice President out of the hospital and to the airport and on to Washington.

Mr. ADAMS. Did Mr. O'Donnell come back and tell you about that discussion?

Mr. O'BRIEN. He came back and told me that he had advised the President, and he had had a discussion with the President. And I don't remember any of the details of it.

Mr. ADAMS. That covered two basic points--that President Kennedy's body was to be removed from the hospital forthwith, and the other was that the Vice President was to return to Washington?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. What were the reasons that led to the decision, if you know, that the Vice President would return to Washington?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe it was in the context of the death of the President, what steps, if any, were necessary for the Vice President to assume the responsibility of the office forthwith, and our great concern about the situation in which Mrs. Kennedy was being left in this corridor, without any plan for taking care of her. So I think the basic idea was to leave the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. Was there any discussion as to whether there might or might not be some general conspiracy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not with me.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. I must add, however, that during the course of this, that none of us had any knowledge of actually what had occurred. And I am sure that some of us gave thought to what might still occur. We just had no idea. And we felt that certainly the first step was the protection of the new President and the taking care of Mrs. Kennedy as best we could. We tried to give some clarity of thoughts to the steps that were necessary.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, you discussed these problems with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers, I suppose.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And anyone else?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe so.

Mr. ADAMS. I will take you back to the point where the coffin arrived. What happened then?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The coffin was wheeled into the emergency room. At that point, a man arrived on the scene who, I assume, was the coroner, or someone representing the coroner's office. I do not know his name. And he stated that the President could not be taken from the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. Was this in Mrs. Kennedy's presence?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall this conversation took place just outside those swinging doors with the glass panels. And I would--I believe, therefore, that she did not hear this conversation.

Mr. ADAMS. Now, at the time the coffin was wheeled into the emergency room, what did Mrs. Kennedy do? Did she enter at that time, or at any time, so far as you recall?

Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is that she did enter the room, but I don't recall it was at that time, and I am not sure what specific time.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, going back to this official who said the body could not be removed--you were present at that time with Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what happened with respect to that discussion?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, Dr. Burkley, the President's physician, entered into that discussion. And as I recall he and this official went into a little room just outside these doors and carried on further discussion that seemed to involve members of the hospital staff and others. And the discussion went on for a period of several minutes. Burkley--Dr. Burkley was quite exercised. It was apparent that this fellow was not going to--he was going to be adamant in his position. And very soon another official arrived on the scene that was described to me as a judge.

Mr. ADAMS. Does the name Brown refresh your recollection?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't know as I heard his name. But he was then described as the judge--a judge, and the indication was that he, therefore, was in a higher position of authority than the other official that had been carrying on this discussion with Dr. Burkley.

He was equally adamant. The reference was made, either specifically by him or by someone in the official group, that this had to be treated as just another homicide, and that no other--no special considerations could be given to the problem. That, of course, increased our concern about Mrs. Kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we could envision Mrs. Kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or even longer. So, therefore, it was our determination that the President should be taken from the hospital.

Mr. ADAMS. This was the determination of you, Mr. O'Donnell, and Dr. Burkley?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.

Mr. ADAMS. Then what happened?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The casket was brought out from the emergency room, wheeled out through these two folding doors. And the members of the Secret Service gathered around it. They had made a determination on their own as to the exit. An ambulance was waiting. Preparations had been made by the Secret Service to accomplish this. And we all--Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers and I, General McHugh, and two or three members of the Secret Service proceeded to push the coffin down this corridor.

My recollection is that objections were still being raised by some or all officials. My recollection is also that we paid little heed to it.

Mr. ADAMS. These were vigorous objections, I gather.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say they were. And the only very minor problem that occurred in reaching the exit was that the priest who was third in point of arrival was still present. The other two priests had departed after expressing their condolences to Mrs. Kennedy. But this priest was standing in the corridor and was rather insistent that he formalize some prayers at that point. And I suggested to him that he step aside. Our concern still was whether or not there was going to be an effective block put in our way.

Mr. ADAMS. And who accompanied Mrs. Kennedy at that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I believe in the grouping behind the casket that at one time Mr. O'Donnell, another time me, and another time perhaps Mr. Powers--but among us we escorted her along.

Mr. ADAMS. Then when you finally got the casket out through this corridor, and got it into the ambulance, how did you go to the airport?

Mr. O'BRIEN. In a car that was parked alongside the ambulance. The driver in the car--Mrs. Kennedy went into the ambulance. And Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, and I went into the back seat of this car.

Mr. ADAMS. Was this a police car?

Mr. O'BRIEN. It was an official car of some sort.

Mr. ADAMS. At that time do you know whether or not the Vice President had left the hospital?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know.

Mr. ADAMS. Had he arrived at Love Field by the time you got out there?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

Mr. ADAMS. And what happened when you arrived at Love Field?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, again the Secret Service and those of us in the official party that had arrived at the field--I guess specifically again the three of us--helped to move the coffin up the steps of the plane. It was a difficult job, because the steps, of course, were the normal set of stairs for a plane, and, therefore, it was too narrow to accomplish this without some difficulty. But it was brought onto the plane.

At that point I noticed that seats to the left of the door had been removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. We placed the coffin on the floor. Then I looked up, and the President and Mrs. Johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment from that area of the plane.

Mrs. Kennedy came aboard and was seated in the remaining two seats at a table to the left in the rear compartment, and Mrs. Johnson and the President went over to her.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you know how it came to pass that the President was sworn in at that time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The President and Mrs. Johnson, after a brief discussion with Mrs. Kennedy, went into the Presidential compartment--I guess that is the best way to describe that section of the plane--this would be where the President's chair and desk are located. He asked Mr. O'Donnell to join him.

During the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we were going to immediately depart. There was some confusion for a couple of minutes about departure. I was not privy to that. And the President asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in--that he had secured the advice of the Attorney General, which, as I understood it, was a preference in his view to have a swearing in ceremony immediately. And that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes.

So while we awaited the arrival of the judge, the President, Mr. O'Donnell and I, joined by Mrs. Johnson, after a couple of minutes, sat at this table with the four seats, and just discussed the fact that the departure would take place immediately following the swearing in ceremony. And during that period we briefly discussed the first step of the President to insure continuity, and either just before the swearing-in or immediately following it, the President discussed with Mr. O'Donnell and me his desire that we stay, as he put it, shoulder to shoulder with him.

The judge arrived----

Mr. ADAMS. During that interval, who was staying with Mrs. Kennedy?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Kennedy had at that point gone into the restroom adjacent to the bedroom in the compartment.

The judge arrived in minutes. And it was suggested that those in the--I guess the best way to describe it--the front of the plane, those who could move into the compartment, including those representing the press, a single photographer was brought aboard. The wording of the oath was available. The judge took her position. The President said that he certainly wanted Mrs. Kennedy with him at this moment. I went to the bedroom. The door to the adjoining restroom was closed. I went out and asked Mrs. Lincoln if she would see if Mrs. Kennedy was available. She went in and came out with Mrs. Kennedy, and she took her place to the President's left, Mrs. Johnson to the President's right, the others grouped around. I stood behind the judge, and just as the judge was to start the ceremony, a member of the crew handed me a small Bible in a white box. I took the Bible from the box, interrupted the judge just momentarily, and handed her the Bible. She completed the ceremony.

Then everyone immediately settled down. The judge departed from the plane, the photographer from the plane. Everyone settled down, and we took off without further delay.

Mr. ADAMS. As a matter of detail, do you happen to know what happened to the Bible?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know.

Mr. ADAMS. The plane then departed immediately?

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

Mr. ADAMS. And----

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. O'Donnell and I went to the rear compartment where we joined Mr. Powers and General McHugh. Mrs. Kennedy was seated in one of the two chairs. Mr. O'Donnell took the other chair. The three of us stood. The plane took off. And we remained with Mrs. Kennedy for the duration of the trip to Washington.

We consulted, or were consulted by General Clifton and Mr. Moyers on two or three occasions during the trip, on arrangements for the President's activity upon arrival here in Washington. One suggestion was made that we--that they call in for a meeting of the White House staff. But that was discarded as impractical at this point. Arrangements were made, however, which Mr. Moyers checked with me, on the calling of the bipartisan leaders to a meeting with the President, and arrangements were put in effect for the President to meet the Under Secretary of State in the absence of the Secretary and other officials here.