Part 65

This was done very rapidly, as I recollect. It seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with the casket. I remember just before they arrived I got Dave Powers and said there was a little room in the back that we ought to just take Mrs. Kennedy under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought the casket in, because I thought that might be the final blow. And we did, and--but she knew what was going on. She came out and said, "No, I want to watch it all." And she stood in the doorway, and thanked us for our attempt at being compassionate.

And then they took it in, and put the body in the casket.

We were then all prepared to go. The agents told me the ambulance was ready, and they were prepared to move.

We--the casket was brought out about halfway, and a gentleman arrived who said that we would not be allowed to remove the body from the hospital until the necessary papers had been signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who he was?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect who he was. I think he was--maybe from the coroner's office. My assumption is he would be.

But he took this position. We asked--I don't recollect who transmitted the message--that they speed this up as much as possible, and give us some idea how long it took to accomplish this. And they went out into this other little room where there were some telephones, and proceeded to call whoever it was necessary to call to get this permission.

We waited about 10 or 15 minutes, and Dr. Burkley and General McHugh were in the room, and Mr. O'Brien at some time. I went out again and asked them if they had an answer, and nobody seemed to be able to answer the question as to how long it might take, and whether it was a week or an hour.

So I was getting more concerned about Mrs. Kennedy's state all the time--although she appeared composed, as she had from the beginning.

Then a gentleman did arrive who has later been identified for me as a Judge Brown, who was on the telephone calling someone. It had been my assumption that upon his arrival that he had the power to permit us to depart. Dr. Burkley was talking to him in a very agitated manner. And the gentleman was very calm and cool and collected. If my recollection is clear, he said something to the effect that as of now this was just a homicide case, and there were certain things that had to be carried out, one of which I interpreted as an autopsy.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it, Mr. O'Donnell, if you recall, who said this was just another homicide case?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My feeling is it was Brown, but I really would not be--in the excitement of the moment, the discussion of the autopsy, the signing of a certificate from the hospital, and the treatment of this as a homicide case, I would not want to be unfair and misinterpret who might have said it.

My recollection is it was indicated to us that the President is dead, the hospital has to perform certain functions, and the law must be met, no matter who it is, at this moment. In my own mind, when they said autopsy, I realized we were talking not about hours, but perhaps even days, which was an impossible situation for Mrs. Kennedy.

I talked to Dr. Burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could have a doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, and that we would bring him immediately to the Naval Hospital, and that they could perform whatever necessary chores, and there would be no separation physically from the hospital and the performance of their autopsy.

They refused to consider this.

I in my own mind determined that we had no alternative but to just depart. So I went back in the room. I told Mr. O'Brien, and whoever else was assembled there, that we were going to leave. I notified the Secret Service and General McHugh, and told them to get ready to depart. We went in and took the body out. Mrs. Kennedy stood right behind it, I think totally unaware of the problems that were then existing, so perhaps confused as to the speed with which we were attempting to depart.

We pushed the casket out through the hall. This first gentleman that had come in, who, I presume, was from the coroner's office, shouted very loudly, "You can't do that, you can't leave here now." Nobody paid any attention to him. We pushed out through another set of swinging doors. I remember a Catholic priest was between this and the doorway, and was praying. It was most disconcerting because we were concerned at all times that some moment they would say stop, and I hated to think what might happen to Mrs. Kennedy if she had to go back and go through this all over again. So we brushed them all aside and came out the same way we had come in, through the same doors.

There was an ambulance there. Andy Berger was seated in the driver's seat. Several agents were there. The body was put into the ambulance, Mrs. Kennedy got in with it. We climbed into a car alongside of it, and we took off for the airport. I told the agents if they would signal ahead, that there were agents at the airfield, and that as soon as we came through the gate, they were to close the gate and let nobody else in.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the gate at the airfield?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall approximately what time you left the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I haven't the vaguest idea.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any idea how long it was after you arrived at the hospital that you left the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I wouldn't--it was a couple of hours. But I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long did the trip take you from the hospital back to the airport?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I am guessing totally at time. I would think it seemed about 15 minutes. It wasn't a long period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The drive was uneventful. We went through the gate. We arrived at the Air Force--I didn't know whether it was 1 or 2, to be honest, until I saw the members of the crew. And they unloaded the casket. I remember they had a very, very difficult time getting it up, because of the narrowness of the ramp. It was very difficult for the Secret Service. It seemed at moments it might almost tumble; it was frightening.

We got on the plane. And the seats had been taken out on the left side, so they could lay the casket down. The casket was placed down. I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not President Johnson had been sworn in at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. At that time I didn't know President Johnson was on the plane. I did not know whether he had been. Subsequently I realized he had not been.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific discussion, to your knowledge, or consideration, to your knowledge, of holding the Presidential plane until Mrs. Kennedy and President Kennedy's body arrived on that plane before departing for Washington?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There has been no discussion of that to my knowledge. Once the President--the Vice President left, I left him, I had not seen him again. I had been notified he had departed, I had been notified that he arrived, and that was the last I heard of it, until I got on the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, after arriving on the airplane?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I say, I told General McHugh to have the plane take off, still all of us under the assumption or apprehension that at some moment we either might not be granted clearance to take off, or that the hospital may have in some way gotten the police to intercept us--the difficulty of that to Mrs. Kennedy was incalculable. I was in a highly desperate strait to get that airplane in the air and back to Washington. As I say, I told General McHugh to tell the pilot to take off.

There was a delay of 2 or 3 minutes, and nothing happened. So I headed up for the cockpit myself, and I ran into McHugh in the meantime who said that President Johnson was aboard, and that he had ordered the pilot to delay, to hold up until he was sworn in. That was the first I knew he was aboard.

I would like to correct that. I must have known he was aboard, because I am sure he must have greeted Mrs. Kennedy as she came aboard. And he and Mrs. Johnson. But I don't have a clear recollection of that in my own mind.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when President Johnson was sworn in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived back on AF-1, what did you do between that time and the time the plane was airborne?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson took Mrs. Kennedy into the President's room on _Air Force 1_. I remember she was reluctant to even go in there, but she persuaded her to. And----

Mr. SPECTER. Who was reluctant to go in?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy. And I went up, and the President and I carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that I had asked for the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion between him and me. He said to me that he had called the Attorney General, and that the Attorney General had indicated that it was, if not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn in prior to the aircraft taking off. I didn't describe what I saw as the problems. I realized it was an inevitable delay. So I don't believe I commented on it. I just listened to him. We sat there.

I went up and talked to the pilot, to make sure they didn't let anybody on the plane, or put the ramps down for anybody, except the judge, under any circumstances. About 10 or 15 minutes later the judge arrived and the swearing in occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon after the swearing in was the plane airborne, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was almost immediate--as soon as he was sworn in, the plane taxied out and took off.

Mr. SPECTER. On the return flight to Washington, where did you sit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I sat with Mrs. Kennedy almost all the way. We came back--Mr. Powers, Mr. O'Brien, and I stayed in the back compartment. And then Mrs. Kennedy and I--I sat down with her, we sat that way all the way back. The President called me up on one or two occasions and asked me to stay up in the cabin, wanted to talk to me, but I felt I had to stay with Mrs. Kennedy. So I sat with her the whole trip.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We reminisced.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have anything to eat on the trip back?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I think we both had a drink. I tried to get her to take a good strong drink. I had not much luck.

Mr. SPECTER. She drank part but not all?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I recollect, she just wanted to talk. She talked all the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then after your arrival in Washington, D.C.? Or did you come back to Andrews Air Force Base?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We arrived at Andrews and meanwhile the Attorney General had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made that decision, by the way?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. That the autopsy should be performed?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. The question is where the body went. We didn't tell her there was to be an autopsy. And the choice was Walter Reed or Bethesda. He being a Navy man, she picked Bethesda.

Mr. SPECTER. She chose Bethesda, as between Bethesda and Walter Reed?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She did.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made the decision there would be an autopsy, if you know?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know who made the decision. I just think we all agreed--we arrived at Bethesda. The Attorney General was there. I think it was just our assumption that this was a necessary part.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from Andrews Air Force Base to Bethesda Naval Hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. By car.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time did you arrive at Andrews, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't remember. It was dark. That is all I do recall.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long was the car trip from Andrews to Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 45 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after your arrival at Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When we arrived at Bethesda, we went immediately to some room, reception room, where the family was.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We stayed there, I would think, until 3 or 4 in the morning. We wanted to stay there until Mrs. Kennedy got back to the house.

We drove back to the White House with her.

Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you leave her at the White House?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think 4 or 5 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. After that, did you go home?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Who all was present with the family at Bethesda?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was Mr. O'Brien, Mr. Powers--I don't recollect anybody else outside the family.

Mr. SPECTER. Who from the family was there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As I remember, Jean Kennedy, the Attorney General and his wife, I think Pat and Eunice. There were some other people. Really there were two--there was one room inside, in which they were in, and there was one out in the reception.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on the balance of the itinerary in Texas after the planned luncheon at the Trade Mart at Dallas on November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We were leaving Dallas and going to Austin, and Governor Connally had arranged one or two receptions, and then a large dinner in the evening, a fundraising dinner, and then the President was going to depart from there to the Vice President's ranch, and stay with them through Saturday, and then come back to Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the estimated time of arrival at the LBJ Ranch about 10 p.m., on the evening of November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be about right.

Mr. SPECTER. With the plan then being to depart for Washington on the 23d, Saturday?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's attitude, in a general way, about Presidential protection--that is, President Kennedy's attitude about Presidential protection, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, his general attitude was that the Secret Service--that there was no protection available to a President of a democracy such as the United States from a demented person who was willing to risk his own life; that if someone wanted to kill a President of the United States, who in a sense wears two hats--he is the leader of a political party as well as our Chief Executive--and by the nature of our system must mingle with crowds, must ride through our cities, and must expose himself to the American people--that the Secret Service would not be, other than the protection that they provide by the screening processes prior to the actual carrying out of a political trip--would not be able to guarantee 100 percent protection, considering one has to mingle with crowds of 50,000 or 100,000 people, and mingle with them at handshaking distance.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever discussed the dangers inherent in a motorcade, for example, with the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not specifically in a motorcade. I don't think the President's view was--very frankly, we had discussed this general subject. We used to go on trips, and sit around in the evening and this would come up.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's view expressed during those conversations?

Mr. O'DONNELL. His view was that a demented person who was willing to sacrifice his own life could take the President's life. And that if it were to happen, I think his general view was it would happen in a crowded situation. I don't think it entered his mind that it might happen in the fashion as of a motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What was his reaction to that risk?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think he felt that was a risk which one assuming the office of the Presidency of the United States inherited. It didn't disturb him at all.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the last conversation that you had with him on that general topic?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The last conversation I had with him on that general topic was the morning of the assassination.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the conversation occur?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The conversation took place in his room, with Mrs. Kennedy and myself, perhaps a half hour before he left the Hotel Texas to depart for Carswell Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. That was in Fort Worth?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That was in Fort Worth.

Mr. SPECTER. And tell us, as nearly as you can recollect, exactly what he said at that time, please.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, as near as I can recollect he was commenting to his wife on the function of the Secret Service, and his interpretation of their role once the trip had commenced, in that their main function was to protect him from crowds, and to see that an unruly or sometimes an overexcited crowd did not generate into a riot, at which the President of the United States could be injured. But he said that if anybody really wanted to shoot the President of the United States, it was not a very difficult job--all one had to do was get a high building some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could do to defend against such an attempt on the President's life.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy's reaction to that philosophy?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think--I think she had not quite thought of this at all. She certainly had not thought of it in this way. But I think the general tenor of the conversation was that she agreed that this was--in this democracy, this is inherent.

Mr. SPECTER. What had her reaction been to the trip to Texas up to that point?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She had enjoyed it. She had not been a girl who had loved campaigning. And I thought at the moment, at that very minute, that for the first time--the President and I were discussing a forthcoming trip to the west coast, and he had asked her if she would come, and she said she would be delighted to come, and she would like to go from now on.

The President was delighted. We were all delighted.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she been on any political trip before this trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; she had not been on a political trip with us for quite awhile.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the trip immediately prior to the one to Texas that she was last on, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the 1960 campaign?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She was pregnant, as I recollect, during the 1960 campaign. She had been pregnant just prior to this. So that--and most of the other trips had been really the sort of thing that was difficult for Mrs. Kennedy to go on. But she had never evidenced to me quite as much interest in going on a--continuing to go on these trips, as she was after this.

Mr. SPECTER. Had she ever been to Texas prior to November 21, 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. After the assassination, has she ever made any comment to you about that conversation which you had in the Hotel Texas in Fort Worth on the morning of November 22?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I have never dared bring that conversation up to Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, do you have any knowledge, aside from the factors which you have set forth during your testimony today, concerning anyone involved in the shooting of the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I have no comment.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you have no knowledge?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I have no knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the President's Commission in any way in its job of investigating all factors relating to the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. One other detail, Mr. O'Donnell.

Did you have occasion to deal with an particular individuals from the city of Dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, under our practice, if you care to, we can make this transcript available to you to read and to sign.

Would you prefer that, or would you just as soon waive the signature, and have the transcript in its final form as it comes from the court reporter here?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would like to read it.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We will make it available to you for reading and signature, sir. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE F. O'BRIEN

The testimony of Lawrence F. O'Brien was taken at 11 a.m., on May 26, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, DC., by Mr. Francis W. H. Adams, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. ADAMS. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I do.

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. O'Brien, the purpose of this deposition is to get from you your knowledge of the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963.

I would like to start way back, if I may, at the point of the conception of the trip, the origin of the trip. How far back was that before November 22?

Mr. O'BRIEN. My recollection is the contemplation of the trip to Texas was back some, perhaps, months before the actual trip.

However, I should quickly add that many discussions took place about potential trips to all parts of the country at some future time, to some degree in the political context. The President, No. 1, enjoyed getting out to meet the people; and, secondly, over a period of time we had anticipated the President would travel rather extensively when the opportunity presented itself. But the difficulty in pinning anything like that down specifically in advance is the obvious difficulty of scheduling any travel by the President, because of the duties of the office and the obvious day to day changes in the problem.

Mr. ADAMS. But you, yourself, were concerned and involved in discussions looking towards this?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; Mr. O'Donnell was responsible for the handling of the specifics of trips. He would engage in discussions with the President and projections of possible trips of one sort or another. In his role as Appointments Secretary, of course, he was constantly discussing with the President invitations of all kinds that came across his desk.

The Vice President had expressed an interest for some time in a possible trip to Texas.

Mr. ADAMS. Had he expressed that interest to you?

Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall specifically. It became generally understood in our discussions that he was interested, the President was interested, Mr. O'Donnell was charged with the responsibility of maintaining a day to day relationship in this area.

Mr. ADAMS. At that time, what was your official title?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Special Assistant to the President for Congressional Relations.

Mr. ADAMS. Now----

Mr. O'BRIEN. A trip of this nature, as many trips within the United States, would involve the inclusion of Members of Congress, appropriate members of the delegation, and what-have-you. So that would be pretty much my involvement in any arrangements for a trip of this nature.

Mr. ADAMS. To put it another way, you did not yourself have the responsibility for the specific planning?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Not at all.

Mr. ADAMS. And were you involved in making--in the discussions which led to the final decision about this Texas trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. There were some discussions that involved me as to the specific stops on the trip, because there immediately you would have the matter of the congressional districts that would be involved in the stops, and matters of that nature.

Mr. ADAMS. Do you happen to know how it came to pass that Mrs. Kennedy went along on that trip?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not. I think Mr. O'Donnell would be the proper person to direct that to.

Mr. ADAMS. Did you have anything to do with the security or protection arrangements for the President?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No.

Mr. ADAMS. Neither on that trip nor at any time?

Mr. O'BRIEN. No.

Mr. ADAMS. This didn't come within your duties at all?