Part 64

Mr. O'DONNELL. The weather was clear, sunny, excellent weather.

Mr. SPECTER. What decision had been made as to whether to have an open car in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The decision had been made to have an open--if the weather was good, he would ride in an open car.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall who made that decision?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would make that decision under normal circumstances. But it was almost an automatic decision, that whenever the weather was clear, he preferred to ride in an open car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall at approximately what time the Presidential party arrived at Love Field, Tex.--Love Field, Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think it would be around 11, 11:15. We were on time. We always allowed a few minutes at the airport, because he always shook hands with the crowd. So we left--my recollection is that we departed from Love Field approximately according to the schedule.

Mr. SPECTER. What were President Kennedy's activities at Love Field?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He had no scheduled activities. It was a matter of assembling the motorcade. He got off _Air Force 1_, and he went over to the crowd that was gathered around the rail, shook hands, went up and down.

Mr. SPECTER. What type of a crowd was it with respect to size?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was a large crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us how the motorcade was constituted with respect to the general number of the cars and the way they were lined up, if you recall, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I can't go more than--I got into the second car, and I didn't really look behind me. There was some controversy as to what Congressman sat in what car. We had a lot of Congressmen with us and a lot of dignitaries, and there was a lot of juggling around, which Mr. O'Brien was more involved with than I was, as to where Senator Yarborough and the Vice President and the Congressman sat. But it was a lengthy motorcade, more lengthy than normal. We always tried to keep them down as much as possible. But because of the number of Congressmen and the dignitaries involved.

Mr. SPECTER. How many cars were there ahead of yours?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think there was a scout car, which was the lead, the President's vehicle, and I was in the car right behind him, in the Secret Service followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Who else besides you was in that car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. David Powers was with me. All the rest were agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether anything unusual occurred on the trip from Love Field down to the center of Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I thought it was normal--the crowds, going through the suburbs, were, I would say, from medium to heavy for that trip. I noted they were mostly white collar, mostly industrial places we passed by which I would say were highly technical. Therefore, the crowd reflected a middle to an upper class type. They were not unfriendly nor terribly enthusiastic. They waved. But were reserved, I thought.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you seated in the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was seated in the front jump seat--the jump seat.

Mr. SPECTER. On the left-hand side or the right-hand side?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Left-hand side.

Mr. SPECTER. And who sat on your immediate right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Powers.

Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were there in front of you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, there were the normal two or sometimes three in the front seat. I would not be clear as to how many there were. I would think there were about--just guessing--seven or eight agents in the car. Some on the running board, some seated, depending on the speed of the motorcade, or the activity.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a front seat in the car, immediately ahead of you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And was that occupied by Secret Service agents?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about immediately to your rear? Was there a rear seat?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a rear seat. There were agents in that--again depending on the speed of the motorcade they were either on the running board, or as it slows up and the crowds got larger the agents would get on the running board. But as it moved along rather rapidly, as it did on the way in, they were seated most of the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the President's automobile made any stops en route from the airport into the downtown area?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect, clearly. I would be surprised if it did not. But I don't have any clear recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it a usual practice for the President to make a stop on the motorcade?

Mr. O'DONNELL. If the crowds got too large, he would stop, or if he saw some child had gone to some great extreme with a sign, he would sometimes stop. Usually unless the crowds were particularly heavy, or indicated a need for a stop, he would not stop.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd in downtown Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The nature of the crowd was extremely heavy, one of the heaviest I have seen in any American city.

Mr. SPECTER. How did they compare with the crowds during the 1960 campaign in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think probably heavier. But very close. They were both very large crowds, very enthusiastic. I think, as I have always noticed, to the President and candidate there is a different aura. But that would be the only difference I would notice in the crowd. There was a little bit more respect--still the same enthusiasm. At the last trip in Dallas he stopped the motorcade every 5 minutes--they mobbed the car. There was none of that. But they were in the middle of the street and off the sidewalks. So there was a very narrow lane to progress through. But they were still very orderly, but cheerful.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any specific reaction to the Dallas crowd in terms of what your expectation might have been about Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I was pleased with it. As a politician, I was particularly pleased with it. I thought we had accomplished what we had come to Dallas to do, was, one, to establish the fact that the average person living in that city was no different than any other American, and that they respected and admired their President. And I felt one of the greatest things that does occur of a political nature is the Congressmen and the political leaders who had also been reading the same newspaper about how unpopular he was, it is good for them to see it really is not true, it is a reflection of a very small minority, and that the President of the United States was extremely popular in Dallas.

And that was the basic reason we went. And as we finished through the business section of town, that was my pleased impression.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the scene when you left the Main Street of downtown Dallas, with respect specifically to the presence of a large building which was immediately ahead of the motorcade?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I did not. I was looking at the crowd. And I frankly didn't look at the building, except when there were people in the windows. And as we made that turn, I had been standing--I remember I sat down. And as far as I was concerned, that was the end--we were then going to the luncheon--and I didn't notice any building at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the identity of the specific plaza there, being known as Dealey Plaza?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was not. I afterward have reflected on it many times.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us what occurred then as you made that turn away from the crowded downtown Dallas area and headed toward the plaza area.

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I sat down. I remember saying to Dave Powers that it was a fantastic crowd. He agreed.

We turned. I remember the overpass. And then the shots occurred--which, at that time, I did not know were shots. My first impression was it was a firecracker. And then either somebody said, "He has been hit," or I noticed the slump--he had been waving out the right side of the car, and I noticed him slump over toward Mrs. Kennedy, and I realized then that they had been shots. But as fast as that realization occurred, I saw the third shot hit. It was such a perfect shot--I remember I blessed myself. I was rather convinced that was a fatal blow.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say you made a turn, which way did the motorcade turn?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Turned to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how far behind the Presidential vehicle was the followup car at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My guess would be 5 to 8 feet, the normal--when there are large crowds, pressing in on the side, they try to stay close. It was moving at a steady pace. The crowds were orderly. So he was at a normal--I would presume they were just about turning to step up the speed a little bit, because there would be no crowds from there.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's vehicle at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would think we probably were going between 15 and 20, up until that moment, and I think he probably had just begun to accelerate probably up to about 25, somewhere in that vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Had the Secret Service followup car completed its left-hand turn prior to the time the shots rang out?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My recollection is they had, just about.

I don't recollect a separation of this nature. It was a slight sloping turn, as I remember, and I thought we were right together.

Mr. SPECTER. So that when you just indicated with your hands, you were showing a pattern of the Secret Service car having made the turn and straightened up immediately behind the Presidential vehicle proceeding down the street?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That is my impression.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the overpass in sight at that time, did you say?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. On which side of the car was President Kennedy seated?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. The extreme right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The extreme right.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was he doing with his hands prior to the time of the shooting, if you recall?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was waving. We had just left the mass of crowds. But as we turned on the grass plot there were four or five people there, and I believe he waved to them.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a right-handed wave?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Governor Connally seated with respect to the President?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was directly in front of the President.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not the President's seat was raised or was it in its extreme low position at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the President's practice was as to whether or not the seat would be raised?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know that, either.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the controls were on the Presidential automobile for raising or lowering the President's seat?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there in all?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Three.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total time which elapsed from the first shot to the last shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would say 5 to 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third one.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was your reaction as to the source of the shots, if you had one?

Mr. O'DONNELL. My reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came from the right rear. That would be my best judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any reaction by any of the other people around in any specific direction?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The agents all turned to the rear. I would think, watching the reaction of the President when the shot--the first shot hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from the rear. I think any experienced agent would make that assumption immediately.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the reaction of the agents which you have referred to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The reaction I note would be right rear. And, again, looking at the manner of the President's movement, I would think you would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was there about the President's movement which leads you to that conclusion?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was leaning out waving. He may have just been withdrawing his hand. And the shot hit him, and threw him to the left. He slumped on Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was not the third shot. Whether it was the first or second, I would not know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it could have been the second shot?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I do. If I had to pick one of the two, I think it might have been the second shot. It seemed to be--but, again, it is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction of Governor Connally in the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I saw the Governor turn toward the President. The President, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind the other. And the only reason I would even notice it was when the President had slumped to the left, the Governor then turned, and he was in my view. Otherwise, he would not have been. But the President slumped over, and, therefore, the Governor just turned and I could see him. I had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When the third shot came. The President was hit. The motorcade accelerated. And one of the agents said, "The Governor has been hit, too."

Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that President Kennedy shifted to the left, then, could you see the Governor at all from your position?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Depending on how each one moved, normally, no. The President was directly behind the Governor. But if the President was over to the right waving, then you could see the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. On the President's left when the Governor----

Mr. O'DONNELL. If the President was all the way to the right, the Governor, who was in front of him, would be visible to us. If they were both sitting, they were not. But they did confer back and forth. So the Governor was visible upon occasion. But when he turned around, it was really the first time I had been able to see him clearly.

Mr. SPECTER. At a time, though, when the President was on the extreme right-hand side, waving, would the Governor then have been visible on the President's left or on his right?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He would be on his left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the jump seat situated, if you know, to the precise front of the President, to the right, to the left, or what?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. What reaction did you observe, if any, as to Mrs. Kennedy during the shots?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he slumped on her. She appeared to be immediately aware that something had happened. She turned toward him. And then the third shot hit. Obviously, she then knew what happened. She turned, looking at the backup car. Meanwhile Agent Hill had gotten off the car and started running up. She was clambering toward the back, and reached his hand, and he was on the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reactions in the President's car other than those which you have now testified about?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. At what point did the motorcade accelerate?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It accelerated, I would think, right about at the time that Agent Hill grabbed onto the back of the car, which would be just a few seconds after the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did the motorcade proceed en route to the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Very rapidly. I would guess between 60 and 70 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. About how long did it take for the motorcade to get to the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would guess 5 to 10 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's car was the followup car in which you were riding at the time the President's car arrived at the hospital?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Right behind it, 5 or 6 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We got out of the car. David Powers got out of the car, went over to the President, and was not visible to me, and was crying, he laid on him. And then they came and took the President--that was the first time I really realized that Governor Connally had been badly hurt, as they also carried Governor Connally out.

Mr. SPECTER. What was Mrs. Kennedy doing at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I believe somebody had helped her out and taken her into the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there a coat over President Kennedy at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. When they took him out, I was standing maybe 3 or 4 feet behind him. There was a wall of people between myself. I didn't see him, nor did I look.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the President out of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who lifted the Governor out of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. By what means were they taken away from the vicinity of the car?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I think they had stretchers. As I say, I was far enough back at that moment that they were milling around, and so many people between my vision and what they were doing, I did not see. I could not be accurate on that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I went into the hospital and went right to Mrs. Kennedy. She was seated right outside the room where they had placed the President. I would say she was in a total daze, and as yet not knowing whether there was any hope or not.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities in the period of time immediately following that moment?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I stayed with her for a few minutes, and then no one seemed to be able to get any conclusive answer as to the President's condition. As I said, I had seen the shots so clearly, I had a pretty clear view. The first thing I had done--I asked them to get a priest, which they did immediately. I went into the room. There were four or five doctors there. Dr. Burkley I think was there. And I said, "I think we better get a definite answer one way or another--is there any hope at all?" I was unable to get a conclusive answer. But I think I got the answer I needed.

I don't know how Mrs. Kennedy was finally told. I may have told her about at that moment. Between the time and the time I knew definitely, I went to see the Vice President.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was with him at that time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Mrs. Johnson was with him and an agent who at the time I did not know. I believe it is Youngblood.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He was in a room across the hall. You had to go directly across what would probably be the reception room, which was open to the public, and into another room. And I recollect I turned to my right, and he was over more or less in the corner with a screen. He was standing on the right, Mrs. Johnson, I believe, was sitting, the agent was standing at the door.

Mr. SPECTER. And what conversations, if any, did you have with then-Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I told him it looked very, very serious, and in my opinion that it was probably fatal. I hadn't been able to get a totally definite answer, but that I would let him know as soon as it was definite--but it looked pretty black.

I then left him. I don't recollect that he even commented. I left him and went back to Mrs. Kennedy, and within a very few minutes they confirmed the fact that the President was dead.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. O'DONNELL. As soon as I was assured that he was dead, and it was definite, I went back to the Vice President and informed him the President was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there as fast as he could. We had a general discussion. The President's first words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken, and that we then discussed whether one of the possible movements might be to move the Presidential aircraft from Love Field to Carswell, where no route of departure could be laid out, and where there would be military security.

We discussed that. It was my opinion that his best movement was to move directly to Love Field. In fact, the routes would not be available anyway, because this was not a schedule--the departure from the hospital to the field would not be covered, if that were a possibility. And that it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, where he was under security and got aboard one of the aircraft.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any discussion about his taking the presidential plane, AF-1, as opposed to AF-2?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson look to you in any way for a recommendation on his subsequent plans in terms of your being then in charge of the presidential party?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It was my impression that he did, that he, with the President gone--that he felt I was--had to assume a position of responsibility, both with regard to Mrs. Kennedy and as to himself. He asked me, as I recall--he asked me for my advice as to his departure and used the words, "I am in your hands now," at some point in the conversation.

But I did get the impression that he wanted official--that isn't the proper word--but that his movements should be approved by all concerned.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all the conversation you had at that time with then-Vice President Johnson?

Mr. O'DONNELL. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Next after I left the Vice President, I went back to Mrs. Kennedy. On the way through the lobby I noted the newspapermen were clamoring for information. I met Kilduff. He said, "Should we announce it?" And I said I think that is a decision that can only be made by the President "You better ask him." So that was the last I saw of Kilduff.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Kilduff?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He is the assistant press secretary.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Kilduff?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Malcolm Kilduff.

I then went back to Mrs. Kennedy, who was in a very understandably distraught condition. It was my opinion--I tried to in some way imply that she might leave and come with us, at least to get her out of that room. She was covered with blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Which room was she in then?

Mr. O'DONNELL. She was in the same room. She had not moved. She was sitting near the door.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the room where the President was treated by the Dallas doctors?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; there is a little corridor. There were swinging doors. He was inside the swing door. She was not in the presence of the body.

Mr. SPECTER. What was her response to you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Her response to me was she would not leave her husband's body. At that point, I realized that she would not. The doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form of sedation. And she had consistently refused, and told me she would not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband.

I realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to leave. And so, therefore, the only alternative I could see was that we move the President. It is an assumption I probably would have arrived at anyway, but I arrived at it in this manner.

So I went out and got hold of Dr. Burkley and General McHugh, and one of the agents, and Andy Berger, as I recall, and told them to get a casket, to bring it back, and Dr. Burkley would have the doctors prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport and go to Washington.