Part 63

On November 22, 1963, as the President and Mrs. Kennedy rode through the streets of Dallas, I was in the second car behind them. The first car behind the Presidential car was the Secret Service car; the second car behind them was Vice-President Lyndon Johnson's car. The driver and a secret service agent were on the front seat of the Vice-President's car. Vice-President Lyndon B. Johnson sat on the right side of the rear seat of the automobile, Mrs. Lyndon B. Johnson was in the center of the rear seat, while I sat on the left side of the rear seat.

After the Presidential motorcade had passed through the heart of downtown Dallas, experiencing an exceptionally warm and friendly greeting, as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by. I have handled firearms for fifty year, and thought immediately that it was a rifle shot. When the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). After what I took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what I took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots--these were my impressions that day), a third shot was fired. After the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the Parkland Hospital.

I heard three shots and no more. All seemed to come from my right rear. I saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at about the time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade started up and raced away.

Due to the second car, with the secret service men standing on steps on the sides of it, I could not see what was happening in the Presidential car during the shooting itself. Some of the secret service men looked backward and to the right, in the general direction from which the rifle explosions seemed to come.

After the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked backward. However, all of the secret service men seemed to me to respond very slowly, with no more than a puzzled look. In fact, until the automatic weapon was uncovered, I had been lulled into a sense of false hope for the President's safety, by the lack of motion, excitement, or apparent visible knowledge by the secret service men, that anything so dreadful was happening. Knowing something of the training that combat infantrymen and Marines receive, I am amazed at the lack of instantaneous response by the Secret Service, when the rifle fire began. I make this statement in this paragraph reluctantly, not to add to the anguish of anyone, but it is my firm opinion, and I write it out in the hope that it might be of service in the better protection of our Presidents in the future.

After we went under the underpass, on the upward slope I could see over the heads of the occupants of the second car (Secret Service car) and could see an agent lying across the back or trunk of the Presidential car, with his feet to the right side of the car, his head at the left side. He beat the back of the car with one hand, his face contorted by grief, anguish, and despair, and I knew from that instant that some terrible loss had been suffered.

On arrival at the hospital, I told newsmen that three rifle shots had been fired. There was then no doubt in my mind that the shots were rifle shots, and I had neither then or now any doubts that any other shots were fired. In my opinion only three shots were fired.

The attached photograph from pages 24 and 25 of the _Saturday Evening Post_ of December 14, 1963, shows the motorcade, as I remember it, an instant after the first shot. [Photograph is Yarborough Exhibit A.]

Given and sworn to this 10th day of July, 1964, at Washington, District of Columbia.

Signed this 10th day of July 1964.

(S) Ralph W. Yarborough, RALPH W. YARBOROUGH.

TESTIMONY OF KENNETH P. O'DONNELL

The testimony of Kenneth P. O'Donnell was taken at 12:05 p.m., on May 18, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Norman Redlich and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you rise, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, the purpose of our asking you to testify today is to obtain whatever knowledge you have about the origin of the trip to Texas by President Kennedy, the events during the trip, and the trip back to Washington, D.C., on November 22. With that general statement of purpose, I will ask you if you have any objection to giving a deposition at this time?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Kenneth P. O'Donnell.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was special assistant to the President. I was in charge of his appointments and any itineraries that he might have.

Mr. SPECTER. How long had you served in that capacity?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I served as special assistant to the President since the inauguration, January 20, 1961, with the same duties.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a party to the original conversations and decision for President Kennedy to make a trip to Texas in November of 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The origin of the trip I would think came from a conversation between the President, then Vice President Johnson, and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President Johnson's desire that he come to Texas and spend some time there, looking forward to the campaign of 1964, in which Texas would play a very vital role in President Kennedy's view.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did that first conversation occur, Mr. O'Donnell?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We had been discussing this for almost 6 or 7 months, but the time had never seemed quite right, either in the Vice President's mind or in Governor Connally's mind. Governor Connally and the Vice President had discussed this. They arrived at a general agreement that it be done some time in the latter part of the month of November. I think this decision probably came in October, some time in October.

Mr. SPECTER. When had President Kennedy been in Dallas prior to the trip of November 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The last time the President had been in Dallas was as a candidate for the Presidency.

I correct myself. He had been to--visit Speaker Rayburn in the hospital. I was not on that trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Then aside from the trip to see Speaker Rayburn, in the hospital, had the President been in Dallas at all since the campaign of 1960?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He had not.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately when it was that President Kennedy visited Speaker Rayburn in the hospital in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know exactly. It would be just before he passed away.

Mr. SPECTER. Does October 1961 sound about right to you?

Mr. O'DONNELL. It sounds about right.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many times had President Kennedy been to Texas between the campaign of 1960 and November 1963, if you know?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he had been to the Speaker's funeral at Bonham. He had been to Houston, to see the new space center, and also he spoke at Rice Stadium. And he had been to El Paso, on a military inspection tour.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those, then, all the trips he made, to your knowledge?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That is all I can recollect at the moment.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what was the purpose of the President's trip to Texas in November of 1963?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in Texas. There were great controversies existing. There was a party problem in Texas that the President and the Vice President felt he could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting President Kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of 1964. I think that is the major reason for the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy motivated, to any extent at all, by his interest in making himself as President available to the people generally in every section of the country, including Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Very definitely. The President's views of his responsibilities as President of the United States were that he meet the people, that he go out to their homes and see them, and allow them to see him, and discuss, if possible, the views of the world as he sees it, the problems of the country as he sees them. And he felt that leaving Washington for the President of the United States was most necessary--not only for the people, but for the President himself, that he expose himself to the actual basic problems that were disturbing the American people. It helped him in his job here, he was able to come back here with a fresh view of many things. I think he felt very strongly that the President ought to get out of Washington, and go meet the people on a regular basis.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he enjoy that exposure, strictly as a personal matter?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He enjoyed it very much. The President--liked people, and he liked to mingle with people.

Mr. SPECTER. When were the specific dates of November 21 and November 22 finally set as being the precise times for the trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I am not clear in my recollection of that. I would think some time early in November. I know Thanksgiving was one of the problems we had to work with. We decided that would be the best time to go, in that general area, and we, in general, would keep a file--once we agreed we were going to Texas--we would keep a file on all the speaking engagements, all the invitations the President had received.

I would go to that file and select some that might look promising. One of them that I recollect was an invitation from Congressman Albert Thomas, or his committee, that was giving him an appreciation dinner--not the Congressman himself. And the President was very fond of Congressman Thomas, he was most helpful to him, and I knew he would want to go, if this was at all possible. I would think that probably had more to do with setting the actual definite dates of the 21st and 22d.

Mr. SPECTER. When, if you recall, was the Secret Service notified of the forthcoming trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think they would be notified around the first week in November. The general desire is that they have the specific information at least on the places that he might go 3 weeks prior to the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. And who among the members of the Presidential staff would be charged with the responsibility for coordinating the trip with the Secret Service?

Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be my responsibility. The manner in which we would set it up would be that I would notify the head here, who is Gerry Behn, and Gerry Behn would ask me when we were sending people down, so that his people and our people could go down at the same time. And I recollect that Jerry Bruno was one of them.

The first step would be to confer with the Governor, go over the general proposals that the Governor would make, and then bring it back to me. And I would go over it with the Governor and the Vice President and the President.

Mr. SPECTER. What planning was undertaken with respect to the determination of the motorcade route through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think once we arrived--we chose the four cities we were going into. And then the advance men and the Secret Service went out. Then we would work backwards from where we had to be at what time, and what things we had agreed we would do there. And the original--Dallas, as I recollect, was going to be an evening affair. The Governor thought the evening affair should be in Austin, and that we should hit Dallas around noontime.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the evening affair, what are you referring to specifically there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a political dinner which was to be conducted at Austin that evening, at the end of which the President was going with the Vice President to the ranch. This was a political fundraising dinner.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any conversation given at all to omitting a motorcade through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. None.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the considerations behind the decision on having a motorcade through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we had a motorcade wherever we went. Particularly when we went to a large city, the purpose of going there was to give the President as much exposure to the people of Dallas and vice versa, the people of Dallas to the President, as possible.

The speaking engagement was a luncheon which was rather limited. And the President would not want to leave Dallas feeling that the only ones that were able to see him were a rather select group. So it would be automatic, and we would not even proceed with instructions, that the advance man and the Secret Service would, within the time allotted to them--would bring the President into Dallas, through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people.

Mr. SPECTER. When was a decision made, if you recall, as to the precise route that the motorcade would follow through Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I would think it would be perhaps a week before the final decision was made. The President would not involve himself in anything like this. Once we agreed on where he would go, that was my responsibility to work it out. The normal course of events--they would say to me, "Do you want a motorcade in Dallas?" I would say, "Yes; this is how much time you have got." They would work out a motorcade. The Secret Service would time the route. Once they had worked out this point, they would come back to me and say, "We have accomplished the purpose you want." The Secret Service would say it takes so much time, the Governor would say "You have to be here at a certain time." Once all those are put together, the route is laid out and accepted.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall how long after the determination of the motorcade route that that information was transmitted to the press in Dallas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. I would think on the transmission to the press that that would not come from here anyway. That would come from down there. I would think the Governor's office would probably put that out. We would under normal circumstances inform through Mr. Salinger's office, I would inform him of the trip, and then I would give him a schedule that is given to me by the Secret Service, which would give the times, but no routes--times and locations, and would go along that he would arrive at 12 o'clock, address such and such a group at 1 o'clock. So we would not normally be privy--they could be saying to me, "We are going down 12th Street"--it would not mean anything to me. So I would think that our advance man and the Governor's advance man would make a decision on when they were going to announce the route.

I would think that was almost normal. You might say you wanted to do it 4 days ahead of time in New York, and the local fellow would really determine it--"Down here we do it this way."

Mr. SPECTER. Would the route be disclosed to the press as a matter of normal procedure in general as soon as it was ascertained?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any factors peculiar to Dallas which delayed the determination of the motorcade route?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The only factor that really did hold up a final decision was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and where he would deliver the speech. There was a controversy between the Governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place for the President to give the address. The Governor felt very strongly on it. And we finally acquiesced to his views. But I would think that came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite dramatically.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us if there was any consideration at all given to omitting Dallas as a stop on the trip in Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think so; no. I would think that the President would not have--once he had agreed to go to three or four other cities, that he could not possibly go to Texas and avoid Dallas. It would cause more controversy--and it would not accomplish for us what really was the long-range purpose of the visit.

Mr. SPECTER. And the long-range purpose was what, sir?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Was to attempt to in some way bridge the gap between the two political groups in Texas who were at odds, and to assist the President and prepare for the 1964 campaign as best he could at this period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's reaction towards Dallas generally, if you know, with respect to the current publicity about, say, Ambassador Stevenson's reception there?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he was not in anyway concerned about it. I think that the President was a very charitable man. He felt that really the picture of Dallas as painted--and as a reflection of their press in many ways--was not the real picture of Dallas; that they were Americans like everybody else, that there were good and bad, and the fact that 50 shouting people didn't portray the city of Dallas. He had been there in the 1960 campaign when the Vice President had been spit upon, and the President received one of the finest receptions he ever got. He didn't carry the city. They opposed him. But they were not particularly different than anybody else. And that wouldn't concern him, and I think, very frankly, the more difficult it was the more he liked to go there. But I think he generally felt that the loud noises emanating from Dallas were a very small minority, and so reflected.

Mr. SPECTER. Had there been any discussion about limiting the trip to Texas to a 1 day venture?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect any. I do know one of the original thoughts was that he go to this dinner in Austin, which was a political dinner. Whether there was any consideration in some other people's minds that he just go in for the dinner and leave, I know he, number 1, would not consider it.

Mr. SPECTER. Why not?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He would not consider it because he had a great aversion to going into any place to a fundraising political dinner in which he felt that the people that were there were not really representative of the people, but were politically committed people, where it was a business meeting. And he thought this reflected to some degree on the office of the Presidency, that on his only visit to Texas, or any other State in 3 years, that he came to raise money for a political party, that he owed to the people to expose himself to them. So he he felt it was a duty of the Presidency to expose himself to the public. So he would not go to any place on a purely--but he certainly considered there were some political problems in Texas--that would also be in his judgment a bad political mistake. So I don't think there was ever any question that he would go some place else.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you accompany the President on all phases of the trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I was with him when he left. The only time that I was not with him was at Congressman Thomas' dinner. He went to the dinner. We ate at the hotel and went directly to the airport.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you depart, then, from Washington, on that trip to Texas?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we left that morning by helicopter from the lawn. I think the records show it is 10:45. But the schedule was on time, certainly arriving there, and, as I recollect, we were on time pretty much the whole way as the schedule would reflect.

Mr. SPECTER. And from the helicopter at the White House lawn, where was your first stop by helicopter?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We stopped and boarded _Air Force 1_ at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. Would the time of 11 a.m., as reflected in the records, be accurate as your point of departure, then, from Andrews Air Force Base?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I would think it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. And your first stop in Texas was what?

Mr. O'DONNELL. San Antonio.

Mr. SPECTER. Arrival time of 1:30 p.m.--would that be an accurate time of arrival, within a few minutes, say, of when you actually set down in San Antonio?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think that is right. As I say, we were on schedule, and the schedule would indicate we were due to arrive at 1:30.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the activities at San Antonio, Tex?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We motorcaded through San Antonio and went to the Aerospace Medical Center, where the President made a speech, and from there to a second airport. We had moved _Air Force 1_ from one airfield to another, on the other side of the city.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Aerospace Center, was there a dedication there of some new facilities?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other public appearance, then, besides the one you mentioned, in San Antonio?

Mr. O'DONNELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. To where did you go from San Antonio?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We flew to Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you arrive in Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. I would have to look at the record.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it late in the afternoon on November 21?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Late in the afternoon, I would think around 4 or 5 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the activities in Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. We drove from the airfield into the hotel. As I recollect, there were very large crowds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a motorcade procession, also?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Motorcade; and particularly as we got in downtown Houston, the crowds were very large, and very enthusiastic. Getting in the hotel was somewhat of a chore.

Mr. SPECTER. What public appearances did the President then make in Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. The President spoke at the appreciation dinner for Congressman Thomas. The records will show the location. I did not accompany him. And I went directly from the hotel to the airport, and met him as he got aboard the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the Presidential party depart from Houston?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would have to guess again. I would think around 10:30 or 11 o'clock. The alternative was staying overnight in Houston, getting in early in the morning--or getting in to Fort Worth late at night, and allowing the President a little more rest, and we selected going to Fort Worth that night.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the public appearances made by the President, then, in Fort Worth, Tex.?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He spoke at 8 o'clock that morning at a breakfast which was given by the business community, as I remember, came back up to his room, chatted for a few minutes, went back down. It had been raining. The sun had just come out. He went out and spoke to a group assembled in the parking lot and went back and departed for--came back upstairs, we chatted for a few minutes again, and then came back down and departed for Carswell.

Mr. SPECTER. And how did the President travel out of Fort Worth?

Mr. O'DONNELL. He left Fort Worth in an open car, traveled by car to Carswell.

Mr. SPECTER. And from Carswell, what was his mode of travel?

Mr. O'DONNELL. _Air Force 1_ to Love Field, Dallas?

Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions on the arrival at Love Field in Dallas?