Part 55

Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a newspaper reporter told me.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there afterwards?

Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I had seen him walk across the street--up the street.

Mr. BALL. Toward what?

Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston.

Mr. BALL. Toward Main--down toward Main?

Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing Houston--on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe, that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Norman--there were two or three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they started across Houston Street up Elm. I didn't see them turn over to the right across Elm.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier--a good deal--a little while before the shooting--I believe they were the three.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm?

Mr. TRULY. I'm pretty sure there was the three of them.

Mr. BALL. And Jarman and Norman say that they went back into the building?

Mr. TRULY. Well, apparently they did, but I saw them out there--I noticed them there on the corner and starting across the street, but whether they completed it--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?

Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?

Mr. TRULY. Walking east.

Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?

Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the street--Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later?

Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did.

Mr. BALL. When--how much later?

Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose--I don't know his actions during that day.

Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building?

Mr. TRULY. No.

Mr. BALL. After the shooting?

Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the building--I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I know he was at the police station later on.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now.

(The deposition of the deponent Truly was adjourned from Room 301 Federal Building, Dallas, Tex., and continued at the office of the deponent Truly in the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Tex., as follows:)

Mr. BALL. Mr. Truly, when you came into the building with Officer Baker you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you?

Mr. TRULY. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. BALL. And where did you see the elevators?

Mr. TRULY. On the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor.

Mr. BALL. They were both up on the fifth floor?

Mr. TRULY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You are sure of that?

Mr. TRULY. I am sure, because their bottoms were level.

Mr. BALL. When you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any of the floors?

Mr. TRULY. When I reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there, but west one was not.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where it was?

Mr. TRULY. No; I don't. I didn't look, I just remember it wasn't upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere.

Mr. BALL. You took the east elevator?

Mr. TRULY. I took the east elevator load to the seventh floor.

Mr. BALL. That's all.

Mr. TRULY. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN CASTER

The testimony of Warren Caster was taken at 2 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Caster, would you please stand up and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CASTER. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your full name, please?

Mr. CASTER. Warren Caster.

Mr. BALL. And where do you live?

Mr. CASTER. 3338 Merrell.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. CASTER. Textbook publishing.

Mr. BALL. Are you with some company?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I am assistant manager for Southwestern Publishing Co. with offices at 411 Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. You have offices in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CASTER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You rent those offices from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. CASTER. The offices are furnished in connection with our work with the Depository.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you were raised and educated?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I was born in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, received my college degrees at New Mexico Highlands University at Las Vegas, N. Mex. I taught school in New Mexico from 1939 until I started to work with Southwestern Publishing Co. in 1952. There was a period of about 2 years that I spent in the U.S. Navy.

Mr. BALL. And have you had your offices since 1952 in the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CASTER. The offices have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building, but not in this particular building here. We have occupied three places since I have been with the Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Your office is on which floor?

Mr. CASTER. Second floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. CASTER. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon hour.

Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?

Mr. CASTER. They were my guns.

Mr. BALL. And what kind of guns were they?

Mr. CASTER. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser.

Mr. BALL. Who owned them?

Mr. CASTER. I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day.

Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about it--what were the circumstances of the purchase?

Mr. CASTER. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday--I beg your pardon, Christmas present--son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22--single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.

Mr. BALL. And did they box them up?

Mr. CASTER. They were in cartons; yes.

Mr. BALL. And then you went back to work, I guess?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased.

Mr. BALL. Did you take them out of the carton?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?

Mr. CASTER. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there--and Mr. Roy Truly. The only people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository workers there in the shipping department.

Mr. BALL. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there?

Mr. CASTER. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter.

Mr. BALL. In the warehouse?

Mr. CASTER. We were there in the hall--just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And did you take the guns out of the carton?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton.

Mr. BALL. Did you handle them?

Mr. CASTER. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody else handle the guns?

Mr. CASTER. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive.

Mr. BALL. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it.

Mr. CASTER. Well, it couldn't have been more than 10 minutes.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the guns after that?

Mr. CASTER. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with them after that?

Mr. CASTER. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book Depository Building thereafter?

Mr. CASTER. They have never been back to the Texas School Book Depository Building since then.

Mr. BALL. Where were those guns on November 22, 1963?

Mr. CASTER. The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. This will be written up and you will be asked to come in and it will be submitted to you for signature and you can correct it if you wish.

Mr. CASTER. That's all right.

Mr. BALL. Any corrections you make, make them in pen and ink and initial it and sign it. I want to thank you very much for giving this testimony.

Mr. CASTER. I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDDIE PIPER

The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 4 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. You understand since this is a continuation of your deposition you are under oath still?

Mr. PIPER. Thank you; I appreciate it.

Mr. BALL. Your deposition has been taken?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to just ask you a few questions.

Mr. PIPER. Sure, that's all right.

Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?

Mr. PIPER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?

Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow--I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.

Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?

Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.

Mr. BALL. A police officer?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?

Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.

Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?

Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up--on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.

Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps?

Mr. PIPER. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down--I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.

Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald--did you notice he wasn't around?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.

Mr. BALL. You did notice it at the lineup, did you?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell us about that.

Mr. PIPER. I did notice it in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by the lineup?

Mr. PIPER. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.

Mr. BALL. You say "they"; who do you mean?

Mr. PIPER. The detective--whoever it was.

Mr. BALL. The police?

Mr. PIPER. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.

Mr. BALL. Did you say something to anybody about not seeing Oswald there?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't say it, but I just saw he wasn't in the lineup--I didn't tell anyone because I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Just tell us what did you notice?

Mr. PIPER. I noticed he was not in the lineup.

Mr. BALL. You noticed that he was not in the lineup?

Mr. PIPER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't mention it to anybody?

Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I didn't mention it but I knows he wasn't in the lineup, and Charles--I don't know whether he was, but he went out for lunch.

Mr. BALL. Was Charles Givens there?

Mr. PIPER. I couldn't remember seeing him. He went out for lunch and I don't remember whether he come out from the building again or not because I was getting dressed to get out of there myself.

Mr. BALL. That's all.

Mr. PIPER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. SHELLEY

The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 3 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a continuation of your deposition. You are still under oath, you understand that?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter.

Mr. BALL. And how did they get there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them in and stopped by to see us.

Mr. BALL. Did you handle the guns?

Mr. SHELLEY. I held the .22.

Mr. BALL. And was there another make of gun too--there was, wasn't there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06

Mr. BALL. Did you handle that?

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. What happened to the guns?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he puts them back in the box and goes out of the door.

Mr. BALL. And did you ever see them again?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. SHELLEY. On the first floor over near the telephone.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. SHELLEY. At the police station when they brought him in.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him in the building at anytime after 12?

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody to go home?

Mr. SHELLEY. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the shooting, do you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where there was a window open?

Mr. SHELLEY. Not all the way; they had it blocked off.

Mr. BALL. Did you at a later time go over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; not for several days afterwards.

Mr. BALL. Did you several days afterward go over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. After they released us to go back to work in the corner. We kept out for several days.

Mr. BALL. When you went back there, were there two Rolling Readers on top of a larger box?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. The boxes--the Rolling Readers were there.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. SHELLEY. But the boxes that they were originally packed in were gone--they had been carried up to the police station.

Mr. BALL. You have seen pictures of the window, haven't you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. With the larger box on the floor and two Rolling Readers on the top?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One Rolling Reader resting in the sill of the window?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers were stacked three aisles away, I believe you testified, haven't you, before?

Mr. SHELLEY. I'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, but it was at least three aisles.

Mr. BALL. Away from the southeast corner?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were at least half way across the building from this corner.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out of the stack and over there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else.

Mr. BALL. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, from any box on that floor.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; they were little boxes. The rest of them are pretty good sized.

Mr. BALL. You had had a special place for the Rolling Readers?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, the two Rolling Readers that were over in the southeast corner were out of place, were they?

Mr. SHELLEY. They sure were.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them out of place before?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen those Rolling Readers in that corner before?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor.

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. SHELLEY. You mean the one under the Rolling Readers?

Mr. BALL. The one under the Rolling Readers.

Mr. SHELLEY. It was a carton of "Think and Do" books, first-grade level.

Mr. BALL. "Think and Do" books?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of the first-grade level?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Those cartons were larger than the Rolling Readers, aren't they?

Mr. SHELLEY. About four time as large.

Mr. BALL. Can you describe their size in inches?

Mr. SHELLEY. I would say they are around 22 long, 18 wide, and 20 tall, approximately.

Mr. BALL. What would you say is the size--was the size of the Rolling Reader?

Mr. SHELLEY. It's about 12 inches long--6 by 6.

Mr. BALL. Now, was there a place where things and those books were usually stacked on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. SHELLEY. Along the west wall all the way across.

Mr. BALL. You had been doing work up there that day, had you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; I mean the east wall; I'm sorry.

Mr. BALL. Had they ever been in the west wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the west wall.

Mr. BALL. On the west wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. On the west wall; I mean the east wall.

Mr. BALL. Then, the "Think and Do" books were on the east wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And piled how many cartons high?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, there were some of them as high as eight high.

Mr. BALL. Then, this carton of "Think and Do" books that was on the floor, near the window, under the two Rolling Readers, was stacked--would have been stacked along the east wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. No; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying the floor, we had to move all of the stock over there, including that particular type.

Mr. BALL. Then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these "Think and Do" book cartons?

Mr. SHELLEY. They are on the south side--along the south side of the building. We just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and then the row went right on back toward the west wall.

Mr. BALL. Along the west wall?

Mr. SHELLEY. We started rolling it east and then it went back west and as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see.

Mr. BALL. There was also a carton of books where they found some handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? Don't you?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize that carton?

Mr. SHELLEY. That was another carton of "Think and Do" books--sixth grade.

Mr. BALL. Where were those cartons usually stacked?

Mr. SHELLEY. They were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall.

Mr. BALL. About where that was found, was it not?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the "Think and Do" books for the first-grade level, that was underneath the two Rolling Readers; was that out of place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How far away from the place where those books were usually stacked?

Mr. SHELLEY. Where they were previously stacked was over near the west wall.

Mr. BALL. But where you had rolled them to; how far was it?

Mr. SHELLEY. Oh, about 3 feet.

Mr. BALL. About 3 feet?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And the "Think and Do" books, sixth-grade level, where the piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its proper place?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall on the east side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of some more. There was an empty spot there and this one particular carton was sitting on it there.

Mr. BALL. By itself?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes; by itself. By the side where the rest of them were.

Mr. BALL. Now, Lee Oswald was a checker, wasn't he?

Mr. SHELLEY. An order filler.

Mr. BALL. An order filler?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And do you recall that when he came to work he used a clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes, sir; all of the boys do.

Mr. BALL. All the boys use clipboards?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know where Oswald got the clipboard he used?

Mr. SHELLEY. Well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip on it and it was homemade--he could have made it himself.

Mr. BALL. You don't know who made it?

Mr. SHELLEY. No; I'm not for sure.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY. It was Frankie Kaiser that found that and came down and told me and I told Mr. Pinkston with the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up and look at it?

Mr. SHELLEY. I went up with him and he got it.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a name on it?

Mr. SHELLEY. I think it had Frankie's name on it--Frankie Kaiser's name. He said he thought that might have been one he had made before--he was all times making them.