Part 51

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the impression that he was going to be moved at exactly 10 o'clock in the morning, and Captain Fritz was talking to him even after 11 o'clock in the morning--we were still there. And I recall that Chief Curry came around and asked Captain Fritz how long he was going to be, or what was holding it up, or something like that, that they wanted to go ahead and get him moved as quick as they could.

Mr. STERN. Did be indicate or did you understand that they wanted to move him at 10 o'clock?

Mr. SORRELS. It was after 10 o'clock then, considerably. As a matter of fact, it was after 11 at that time. Captain Fritz remarked to me afterwards, he said, "Well, as long as it looks like he might talk, I hesitate to quit, or move him out at that time," and he told Chief Curry, "We will be through in a few minutes."

And shortly after that, Captain Fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained a change of address card which Oswald had apparently filled out in which one of the names shown on that change of address card that was to receive mail at that particular address in New Orleans was named A. Hidell. And I desired to question Oswald about that thing, because he had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of A. Hidell, and he denied knowing anybody by the name of A. Hidell.

So I showed Oswald this change of address card and said to him, "Now, here is a change of address card that you filed in New Orleans," and he looked at it.

He did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently in his handwriting, and his signature. And I said, "Now you say that you have not used the name of A. Hidell, but you show it on this card here as the name of A. Hidell, as a person to receive mail at this address. If you do not know anyone by that name, why would you have that name on that card?"

He said, "I never used the name of Hidell."

Mr. STERN. That was the last question he was asked?

Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know.

Mr. STERN. And then what happened?

Mr. SORRELS. He was told that they were going to move him to the county jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out of his--the clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, because the shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended was taken, apparently for laboratory examination. And so Captain Fritz sent and got his clothes and, as I recall it, he selected a dark colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And then he was taken out, and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I left and went up to--I say up--down the hall to the executive office area of the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief Batchelor.

And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw the people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there at the police station. And we were just waiting around there.

And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark, "talking about open windows, I see one open across the street over there" at a building across the street.

I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the Chief of Police there when this same police officer said that he just heard that Oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack Rubin, as I understood at that time, R-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to run a night club.

Inspector Kelley and I then went just as hurriedly as we could to the basement.

Mr. STERN. As I understand it, Mr. Sorrels, you covered all the relevant information from this point of time on with Mr. Hubert yesterday.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. And actually back just a little bit.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything that has occurred to you since your interview with Mr. Hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify anything you said yesterday to him?

Mr. SORRELS. We were trying to establish something about the time yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. And I could not fix any exact time.

But knowing the fact that Oswald, I believe, is reported to have been shot at 11:21, I believe it is, and the fact that when we got into the basement of the City Hall there at a time when Oswald was still on the floor there, and was being given artificial respiration, as I said yesterday, and I immediately called my headquarters office in Washington and told them about Oswald being shot by Jack Rubin, a night club operator. And they asked me, of course, to get additional information and call them back.

And from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, I went back upstairs--didn't tarry there at all. And Oswald was still there when I left and went back upstairs to Captain Fritz' office, because my thought was to talk to this man Jack Rubin as fast as I could.

Captain Fritz was not there. They said he went to the hospital. I asked where Ruby was. They said he was up on the fifth floor. I said I would like to talk to him. And I was sent with an officer to the jail elevator, went right on up there. So----

Mr. STERN. Have you been able to establish the time of your phone call to Deputy Chief----

Mr. SORRELS. No, I have not been able to establish it. But after thinking the thing over, and the fact that Oswald was still there at the time this call was made, I would say that that phone call was probably made between 11:25 and 11:30, I would say.

Mr. STERN. Fine.

Mr. Sorrels had you discussed with any official of the Dallas Police the plans to move Oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the move was made?

Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that he was supposed to be moved at 10 o'clock in the morning, I said to Captain Fritz--and as I recall this conversation--I said to him, "Captain, I wouldn't move that man at an announced time. I would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, when there is nobody around."

And Captain Fritz said, "Well, the chief has gone along with these people," talking about the press and television people, and said that he wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them all he can. And that was all that was said about that.

I did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with Chief Curry, as I recall, because I did not want to appear that I was trying to tell them how to run their business.

Mr. STERN. What were conditions like in the third floor corridor of police headquarters from Friday through Sunday?

Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to actually realize the conditions. The press and the television people just, as the expression goes, took over. I would almost every time I went up there, definitely after the 22d, I would have to identify myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator on the third floor, if I was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's office or Captain Fritz' office. You would have to elbow your way through, and step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost that I would come out of Captain Fritz's office, the minute the door opened, they would flash on those bright lights, and I got where I just shadowed my eyes when I walked down there to keep the light from shining in my eyes. They had cables run through one of the deputy chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the side of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could get power--they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down to keep people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. And it was just a condition that you can hardly explain. It was just almost indescribable.

I know at one time when Mr. Jim Underwood of KRLD, that is the Dallas Time Herald Television Station down there, was in Captain Fritz' office with Jack Ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange for her to get up to talk to Jack Ruby, that the police officer who was stationed at the door to the detective's office had a terrific time keeping them--I thought they were going to barge on in there. They were yelling like mad--because Mr. Underwood was in there, and one of them was there yelling--"if he has got a right to be in here, we have a right to be in there."

Just as loud as he could. And Mr. Underwood had to leave Captain Fritz' office and say, "Listen, fellows, I am not going upstairs. I am trying to make arrangements for this woman to see her brother--I am not going upstairs."

That was just the situation you were booked up against there.

And, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me something, and I would say, "No comment, I don't have any comment to make."

And I don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because Mr. Kelley, the Inspector, told me "Any information that is given out will have to come from Inspector Peterson in Washington."

Finally, after they found out I would not say anything, they didn't bother me any more.

Many times when I would be going into the third floor area there, they would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would say, "That is Sorrels of the Secret Service."

That happened more than once.

And, of course, I would have to go ahead and identify myself. The officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me and pass me through.

Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many press representatives there were in that corridor?

Mr. SORRELS. I am not too good in estimating anything like that, but there were dozens of them.

Mr. STERN. Was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of.

Mr. STERN. Did you ever learn why this was not done--did you ever ask?

Mr. SORRELS. No, I did not. I just thought to myself--well, if this was being handled in a Federal building, this situation would not exist. That is what I thought.

But, of course, that is a public building. I thought to myself--well, they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting them out. That is just my own thoughts about the thing, because I do know that the Dallas Police Department, the Dallas Sheriff's Office, they do try to go along with the press and everything like that.

After this thing happened, Mr. Felix McKnight, who I mentioned before, who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the Dallas Times Herald, he said to me, "Forrest, those people should have been out of there, and that includes us."

Of course the thing was all over then. I would imagine that Chief Curry or anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of there would have really had a tough time and they probably would have really blasted them in the press.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, that covers the ground that I wanted to ask you about.

Is there anything you would like to add to anything you said this morning with respect to the advance preparations, the actual events in front of the Book Depository, your return there, anything that elapsed while you were at the police headquarters from Friday afternoon through Sunday morning--or with respect to anything you told Mr. Hubert about yesterday?

Just take a moment and think about it.

And if there is anything you would like to amplify or add to what you have said that you think the Commission should know, please tell me.

Mr. SORRELS. I cannot recall anything right now, Mr. Stern.

Mr. STERN. I would like you to identify this one page memorandum entitled "Statement of Forrest V. Sorrels, Special Agent in Charge, U.S. Secret Service, Dallas, Tex., November 28, 1963."

I have marked this "Exhibit 5," deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a copy of a statement that I wrote up.

Mr. STERN. Would you initial that for me, please?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Would you review the statement and see if there is anything you would like to add to it?

I think you might just tell us what it covers.

Mr. SORRELS. This is a statement which was written up by me on November 28, 1963, relating the fact that the presidential motorcade----

Mr. STERN. The statement will be in the record, Mr. Sorrels. I meant just tell us the subject matter of it.

Mr. SORRELS. Relating to the events that I observed when the presidential motorcade went from Love Field until the time that I left the Parkland Hospital to go to the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to add to that statement that you have not already told us--because we have gone into this in much greater detail now.

Mr. SORRELS. No, not that I can recall, because as you say we went into it in more detail.

Mr. STERN. Thank you very much, Mr. Sorrels. We appreciate very much your coming to Washington to help us.

Mr. SORRELS. I want to express my appreciation to you and to the Commission for permitting me to not come on the week of the 19th, due to the fact that my little daughter had to go to the hospital. I certainly appreciate your consideration in letting me come at a later date.

Mr. STERN. We were very happy we could arrange that, and we are glad to know she is well.

Mr. SORRELS. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM J. WALDMAN

The testimony of William J. Waldman was taken on May 20, 1964, at 4540 West Madison Street, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

William J. Waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your full name?

Mr. WALDMAN. William J. Waldman.

Mr. BELIN. And where do you live, Mr. Waldman?

Mr. WALDMAN. 335 Central Avenue, Wilmette, Ill.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. It's a suburb of Chicago.

Mr. BELIN. And what is your occupation?

Mr. WALDMAN. Vice president of Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with Klein's?

Mr. WALDMAN. Approximately 12 years.

Mr. BELIN. And in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work?

Mr. WALDMAN. Supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising.

Mr. BELIN. What kinds of products does Klein's sell?

Mr. WALDMAN. Sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer.

Mr. BELIN. Would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by Klein's are rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. Would you restate the question?

Mr. BELIN. Does Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods?

Mr. WALDMAN. They do.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. Were you originally born in Chicago?

Mr. WALDMAN. No; I was born in Sedalia, Mo., November 16, 1912. Education: I don't know just what you're after.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you went through high school?

Mr. WALDMAN. I completed high school, attended Carnegie Institute of Technology, New York University. I don't know the nature of how far you want this developed.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had some college work then?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And after you got out of college, what did you do?

Mr. WALDMAN. I got out of college and I was employed by Sears and Roebuck, Spiegel's, Inc., and various other employment, served in the U.S. Army, Air Corps branch.

Mr. BELIN. This is during World War II?

Mr. WALDMAN. During World War II. Following which I was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by Klein's Sporting Goods.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I hand you what is being marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 1 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Could you please tell us what that statement constitutes?

Mr. WALDMAN. This constitutes a purchase order of Klein's directed to Crescent Firearms Co. for Italian Carcano rifles prepared on January 2, 19--, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, January 24, 1963, calling for 200 units at a cost of $8.50.

Mr. BELIN. Now----

Mr. WALDMAN. I haven't finished.

Mr. BELIN. Let me just ask you this preliminary question: This is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. The original was prepared under a system which I originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. It would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and----

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the person is that filled out this order?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; his initials are so indicated as "M. W."

Mr. BELIN. Would that be the name at the lower left-hand corner of Exhibit 1?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. And that is who?

Mr. WALDMAN. Mitchell W. Westra.

Mr. BELIN. At that time was he an employee of your company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he under your jurisdiction and supervision?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was not under my direct supervision, no. He was under the direct supervision of Sam Kasper.

Mr. BELIN. And where is Sam Kasper now?

Mr. WALDMAN. He may or may not be here.

Mr. BELIN. I don't mean this afternoon. Is he with the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. He is the vice president of our company.

Mr. BELIN. He is the other vice president of the company?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you started to go into the detail of what Deposition Exhibit 1 constituted. I just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on February 22, delivery was made to us by Lifschultz Trucking Co. I might explain the difference in the two dates here.

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.

Mr. WALDMAN. The February 21 date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of February 22, is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department.

Mr. BELIN. Your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct?

Mr. WALDMAN. They don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1 a date--well, I might read everything under the column of description; it says Italian Mannlicher-Carcano, Model 91TS, bolt action 6-shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber--6.5, and then there is an "X" and 52 mm Italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to Beretta Terni M19, then a slash line 38 EFF, and then the date of 4/16/62. Explain that date and that description.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by--developed by each of the manufacturers.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the Springfield rifle in this country?

Mr. WALDMAN. As for example, the different manufacturers making the Springfield rifle. Basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as I say, there were details that were different.

We originally had ordered one style of Carcano rifle, one that was known as the Model 91TS. As time went on, we changed to another model known as the Model 91/38EFF, this on April 13, 1962.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I also note on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, under the item number--some letters here or numbers----

Mr. WALDMAN. C20-T749.

Mr. BELIN. What does that signify?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be something akin to a catalog number?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Off the record now. Can I speak without being----

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. On the record.

Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?

Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts?

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself?

Mr. WALDMAN. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?

Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar.

Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?

Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. What is it?

Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21, 1963, from Crescent Firearms.

Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 2 that says. "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller, 2-21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?

Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time.

Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case?

Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated there were 10 rifles in each case.

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case.

Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice.

Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.

Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate photostat of these other copies?

Mr. WALDMAN. It is.

Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?

Mr. WALDMAN. I do.