Part 50

Mr. STERN. Do you recall what their statement was--what their testimony was?

Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't, because I wasn't in there but just a very short time. And this FBI agent was questioning about what they had seen and so forth. I don't recall--it was being taken down at the time.

So I went out, and they had Mr. and Mrs. Arnold there. And Mr. Arnold, a young man, and his wife, very young, said that they were standing on the side of the street on Houston Street, there by the courthouse building, and that they--this is prior to the time of the arrival of the President there, some 20 to 25 minutes beforehand, he said.

Mr. STERN. This is the east side?

Mr. SORRELS. That would be the east side of Houston Street.

Mr. STERN. Are you certain about the name of this couple? I believe you said Arnold.

Mr. SORRELS. Well----

Mr. STERN. Could that have been his first name?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that could have been his first name.

Mr. STERN. Can you recall his second name?

Mr. SORRELS. I would know it if I heard it.

Mr. STERN. Could it have been Roland?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Roland is right.

Mr. STERN. What did they tell you?

Mr. SORRELS. He said that they were standing there waiting for the President to come by, and they were talking about security. And he said that right after that, that he looked up at this building over there, which is the Book Depository, and that there were a couple of windows open towards the west side, and that he saw a man standing in there with what appeared to be a rifle with a telescopic sight.

Mr. STERN. Towards the west side?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes--two windows towards the west side.

And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service man."

And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, of course, I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How could you determine--what made you think it had a telescopic sight on it?"

He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background."

I said, "How was he holding it?"

He said, port arms--he was standing several feet back away from the window.

And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?"

He said, "No, I could not."

Mr. STERN. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her?

Mr. SORRELS. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not see anything, because she didn't have her glasses.

Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Roland tell you he had seen anyone else in the windows of the Book Depository Building?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that he did. I don't recall that at all. He may have, but I don't recall that.

Mr. STERN. Did he mention anyone on the sixth floor, and particularly on the extreme east side of the sixth floor?

Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall that he mentioned anyone there.

Mr. STERN. What was your impression of what he told you?

Mr. SORRELS. Well, of course, the thing that hit me first thing is why--he was right there by the sheriff's office, if he had just gone in there and said, Look, I saw a man with a rifle over there.

I said, "Why didn't you say something to somebody about it?"

He said, "I just thought he was a Secret Service man."

And at that time he appeared to be, as far as I was concerned, truthful about the matter.

Mr. STERN. You didn't have any reason to doubt him?

Mr. SORRELS. No.

Mr. STERN. And would the same be true of what Mr. Brennan told you, and Euins?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you look towards the window that Roland had pointed out from the spot at which he said he was standing, to see whether it was possible to observe from there someone standing several feet back from the window? Did you have occasion to check that?

Mr. SORRELS. Well, no, not specifically.

Later on I heard that he had--I believe in his statement that he wrote up down there at the sheriff's office, something about 15 feet back. And I thought to myself, well, I don't think you could see anybody that far back.

Mr. STERN. But he didn't tell you that?

Mr. SORRELS. No, he just said he was standing back of the window there, just kind of looking around there. He said after he saw him there, he didn't pay any more attention, because he just thought it was a Secret Service man.

Mr. STERN. What happened next?

Mr. SORRELS. There was another witness there that I started talking to--I don't recall the name now, because I told him to go in--somebody that saw a truck down there--this is before the parade ever got there--that apparently had stalled down there on Elm Street. And I later checked on that, and found out that the car had gone dead, apparently belonged to some construction company, and that a police officer had come down there, and they had gone to the construction company and gotten somebody to come down and get the car out of the way.

Apparently it was just a car stalled down there.

But this lady said she thought she saw somebody that looked like they had a guncase. But then I didn't pursue that any further--because then I had gotten the information that the rifle had been found in the building and shells and so forth.

At that time Mr. Harry McCormack, who is a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, and whom I have known for many years, came to me and says, "Forrest, I have something over here you ought to know about."

I said, "What have you got here?"

He said, "I have a man over here that got pictures of this whole thing."

I said, "Let's go see him."

So we went on to a building at the corner of Elm and Houston, on the east side of Houston, and across the street from the court house building there, and up to the office of a Mr. Zapruder, they have a dress manufacturing place there in that building. And he was there with another man connected with the business there, and apparently some magazine representatives there. And Mr. Zapruder was real shook up. He said that he didn't know how in the world he had taken these pictures, that he was down there and was taking the thing there, and he says, "My God, I saw the whole thing. I saw the man's brains come out of his head."

And so I asked Mr. Zapruder would it be possible for us to get a copy of those films.

He said, yes.

So then accompanied by Mr. Zapruder, and this other gentleman in the business there with him, whose name I don't recall at the moment, and Mr. McCormack, we went then to the Dallas Morning News Building, which is about three blocks from Mr. Zapruder's building, three or four blocks from there, with the idea of getting those films developed right away.

There was no one there that would tackle the job. We then went to the television section, WFAA, of the Dallas Morning News, to see if we could get them to handle it there, and they said, no, they would not attempt to do that, but they did assist us by calling Eastman Kodak Co., and they said if we came out there right away, that they would get right on it.

We got a police car, and went right on out to the Eastman Kodak Co., and while there I met another gentleman who had seen some still pictures, and I arranged with him for us to get copies of those.

Mr. STERN. What was his name--do you recall?

Mr. SORRELS. He is a salesman for the Ford Co. on West Commerce Street--Mr. Willis.

And so he said, yes, that he would be glad to furnish me with a copy of the pictures.

At that time, I made a phone call to my office, because I had not been in contact with them since we had departed from Love Field. I was informed that an FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain Fritz of the Homicide Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, that he had a suspect in custody.

Mr. STERN. About what time was that?

Mr. SORRELS. That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine.

Mr. STERN. About an hour after you had returned----

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I would say that it was at least that long--maybe a little bit longer.

So when I got that information, I told Mr. Zapruder that I would contact him later and get the pictures, because I wanted to get right down to Captain Fritz' office.

So I left then with the same police car and had them take me to Captain Fritz' office.

And upon arrival there, there was many officers around there, there was already cameras out in the hall, tripods, and so forth, and all of the city hall down there. And there was a number of officers in the detective bureau office there, and Captain Fritz' office, which is an office within the large office, was closed, and the blinds were drawn in his office there.

I did not knock on the door or anything, because I did not want to interfere with him if he was talking to someone. So I just waited there until Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found out to be Oswald in custody at the time.

And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to this man when I have an opportunity."

He said, "You can talk to him right now."

And he just took him on back around to the side of Captain Fritz' office, and there was a number of other officers there, might have been some FBI agents, too, there, because there were numbers of FBI agents around in that vicinity almost all the time from that time on. And some of the detectives there.

And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him.

And he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops."

And I said, "Well, I will tell you who I am. My name is Sorrels and I am with the United States Secret Service, and here is my commission book."

I held it out in front of him and he said, "I don't want to look at it."

And he held his head up and wouldn't look at it at all. And he said, "What am I going to be charged with? Why am I being held here? Isn't someone supposed to tell me what my rights are?"

I said, "Yes, I will tell you what your rights are. Your rights are the same as that of any American citizen. You do not have to make a statement unless you want to. You have the right to get an attorney."

Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney?

No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney.

Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney?

I said, "No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney, because if I got you an attorney, they would say I was probably getting a rakeoff on the fee," or words to that effect, and kind of smiled and tried to break the ice a little bit there.

I said, "You can have the telephone book and you can call anybody you want to."

I said, "I just want to ask you some questions. I am in on this investigation. I just want to ask you some questions."

Mr. STERN. Was there anything further said about an attorney?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall at that time. I don't recall anything further said about an attorney. I asked him where he worked. He told me worked at this Book Depository. And as I recall it, I asked him what his address was, and where he was living, and he explained to me that he was living apart from his wife, and that she was living over in Irving, Tex. I asked him, as I recall it, what his duties were at this Book Depository, and he said filling orders.

I asked him if he had occasion to be on more than one floor, and he said, yes.

I asked him if he had occasion to be on the sixth floor of the building. He said, yes, because they fill orders from all the floors.

But he said most of his activity was down on the first floor.

And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign country, and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had been spent in the Soviet Union, as I recall it.

And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more questions."

And so the conversation was terminated.

Mr. STERN. Did he give you his address?

Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't remember what it was offhand.

Mr. STERN. Then were you finished with your questions, or did he refuse to answer any more?

Mr. SORRELS. He just said, "I don't care to answer any more questions."

Mr. STERN. You wanted to ask him other questions?

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.

Mr. STERN. And what happened then?

Mr. SORRELS. He was taken by the officers, as I recall it, and was taken out of that area and I suppose put back in jail.

Mr. STERN. Did you then talk to Captain Fritz?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I recall it, I asked Captain Fritz whether or not he had gotten anything out of him or not, and Captain Fritz said that he hadn't been able--that he had not made any admissions or anything like that at that time, and that he was going to talk to him again.

That is all I recall that transpired at that time.

Of course I contacted the Chief's office, when I got that information as to who he was, and gave that information to them.

Mr. STERN. This is Chief Rowley?

Mr. SORRELS. I think I talked to Deputy Chief Paterni.

Mr. STERN. Of the Secret Service here in Washington?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did anything else transpire between that time and the Friday night showup?

Mr. SORRELS. I did not talk to Oswald again, and I was around there. When I contacted Washington, I was informed that Inspector Kelley was being directed to be there, and he would be there later on that evening, that they had caught him out on the road, and he would come there to help out.

I also got information to Captain Fritz that I had this witness, Brennan, that I had talked to, and that I would like very much for him to get a chance to see Oswald in a lineup. And Captain Fritz said that would be fine.

So I instructed Special Agent Patterson, I believe it was, after I had located Brennan--had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he wasn't at home. And they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help me locate him, and she, as I recall it, said that she would see if she could locate him by phone. I called her, I believe, the second time and finally got a phone number and called him and told him we would like for him to come down and arrange for him to meet one of our agents to pick him up at the place there. And when they came down there with him, I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, Mr. Brennan.

He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."

So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also where they have the lineup, and Mr. Brennan, upon arrival at the police station, said, "I don't know if I can do you any good or not, because I have seen the man that they have under arrest on television," and he said, "I just don't know whether I can identify him positively or not" because he said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his shirt was open or something like that, and he said "The man I saw was not in that condition."

So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he could.

And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can move up forward."

They did bring Oswald in in a lineup.

He looked very carefully, and then we moved him up closer and so forth, and he said, "I cannot positively say."

I said, "Well, is there anyone there that looks like him?"

He said, "Well, that second man from the left," who was Oswald--"he looks like him."

Then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled.

Now, mind you, Oswald had a slight wound over here, and he had a black eye, a bruised eye.

Mr. STERN. When you say "over here"----

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, on the left side. He had a mark on his forehead, and his left eye was a bit puffed.

Mr. STERN. How many other people were in the lineup?

Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told there was five or six--I don't remember. I believe there were five.

Mr. STERN. Were the others reasonably similar to Oswald in height and physical appearance, and color?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Dress?

Mr. SORRELS. I noted that to me I thought it was a very fair lineup, because they didn't have anyone that was a lot taller than he was, or anyone a lot shorter. They didn't have any big fat ones or anything like that.

In other words, to me it was a good lineup.

Mr. STERN. At that time, did Mr. Brennan say anything else to you that you have not told us, or to anyone else?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall. He says, "I am sorry, but I can't do it. I was afraid seeing the television might have messed me up. I just can't be positive. I am sorry."

Mr. STERN. As far as you know, had Mr. Brennan been interviewed by anyone after he gave his statement to the deputy sheriff until the time you had him brought to the police headquarters?

Mr. SORRELS. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. STERN. Was he then interviewed by anyone?

Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say.

Mr. STERN. Did you arrange for him to return to his home?

Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I did. I told him "they will take you back to your home."

Mr. STERN. Immediately after the lineup?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Brennan again after that day?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have.

Mr. STERN. When was that?

Mr. SORRELS. We were assisting the Commission in locating witnesses to come to Washington, to the Commission, and I got in touch with him and arranged for him to go and procured his ticket and delivered his ticket to him.

Mr. STERN. And when you talked to him then, did he say anything that bears upon our inquiry that he hadn't said before?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, when you were at the police headquarters, after this interview with Oswald that you have told us about, do you recall talking to any representative of the FBI?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Who was that?

Mr. SORRELS. Now, let's get that question again, because I talked to them several times down there.

When was that you said?

Mr. STERN. After you interviewed Oswald.

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes, yes.

Mr. STERN. Do you know an FBI agent attached to the Dallas office named James Hosty?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. STERN. Did you talk to Mr. Hosty that you recall?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. Might you have spoken to him, or do you think you would remember that?

Mr. SORRELS. I think I would remember it.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall his being there?

Mr. SORRELS. I think I saw him there.

Now, whether it was on the 22d or not, but I think during along this period, I saw him there one time.

But I don't recall talking to Mr. Hosty at all down there.

Mr. STERN. Did any of the agents attached to your office tell you that they had talked to Hosty? Or that Hosty had told them anything?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I think Special Agent Patterson, I believe, said that he had seen Hosty down there, and that Hosty, I believe, had said that he had a file on Oswald.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall anything else that Agent Patterson told you that Mr. Hosty had told him?

Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot recall anything else. Because I had information--had also gotten information from others. In other words, there was general information around the Police Department there that the FBI had a file on this individual.

Mr. STERN. Any other of your agents tell you that Hosty had said anything to them about Oswald that you can recall?

Mr. SORRELS. You mean at that specific date, regarding that specific date?

Mr. STERN. Either on Friday or on Saturday.

Mr. SORRELS. No. During the course of this thing, it was my understanding that--I don't remember how the information came to me--that Hosty had been checking on this Oswald, and that they had information or knew that he was in this building. I cannot pinpoint it any way specifically, because the information came several different times to that effect.

Mr. STERN. Now, you told us something of Oswald's physical appearance when you saw him at the interview.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And at the showup.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did his appearance change in the course of that time?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.

Mr. STERN. Over that 3-day period, did you see any sign that force or any other form of coercion was used on Oswald by anyone?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you observe or hear of any intimidation of Oswald or the offer of any benefit to Oswald if he were to confess?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you participate in or observe any other interrogation of Oswald following your own brief interrogation?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. When was that?

Mr. SORRELS. On the following day----

Mr. STERN. That is Saturday, the 23d?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I sat in on part of an interview with him, with Captain Fritz. And then, again, on Sunday the 24th, just before he was shot.

Mr. STERN. Did the question of counsel come up again--that is, a lawyer for Oswald?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. During the interview with Captain Fritz, when I was in there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the name of Abt, or some similar name like that. I never had heard of him before. Apt, or some similar name.

And Captain Fritz said, "Well, you can use the phone and you can call him."

Mr. STERN. When was this?

Mr. SORRELS. That was Saturday morning. And it is my understanding that Oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone.

Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe it?

Mr. SORRELS. I did not observe that; no.

Mr. STERN. Did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. He said if he could not get this man--I wish I could remember his name--a very short name, Apt or something like that.

Mr. STERN. A-b-t?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, A-b-t. Yes--if he couldn't get him, he wanted a lawyer supplied by the Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. STERN. What else occurred at the interview on Saturday that you can remember?

Mr. SORRELS. He was questioned about the rifle, because, at that time, as I recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been purchased from Kleins in Chicago, and shipped to a person using the name of A. Hidell. And he was questioned by Captain Fritz along those lines. And he denied that the rifle was his. He denied knowing or using the name of A. Hidell, or Alek Hidell.

He was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. The questions were, of course, directed towards getting information. A lot of them he would not answer. And a lot of the answers, of course, were apparent falsehoods.

And he gave me the impression of lying to Captain Fritz, and deliberately doing so, maybe with an attempt to get Captain Fritz to become angered, because he, Oswald, would flare up in an angry manner from time to time.

Mr. STERN. But you think that was acting--not genuine?

Mr. SORRELS. That is the impression I got, that he was just deliberately doing that, possibly to agitate Captain Fritz and maybe get him to become angry, and maybe do or say something that he shouldn't do.

That is just the impression I gained from him. And the reason--I guess one reason I gained that impression is because on the last interview, on Sunday morning, Oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different attitude. In other words, he was talking a little bit freer--he wasn't giving out any information of any value particularly, but he wasn't flaring up like he did before.

Mr. STERN. Was that Sunday interview extended beyond any time that you know of that it was scheduled to end?