Part 49

Mr. SORRELS. No; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of course, getting in front of the building, I just glanced out--just as we made the turn, just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd and the building, just a glance at it at that time.

Mr. STERN. And at this point you are traveling directly in front of the building?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. I imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see the whole building.

Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't mean to say that after we made the turn I looked up and saw the whole building. But just as we made the turn I looked towards the building and saw people in front, and just glanced up--I would not say that I saw the entire building at all at that time.

Mr. STERN. And it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that you observed no one there with a weapon?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Or any other implement?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. That several windows were open on the side of the building at different places?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And that the only people you observed were at one particular location?

Mr. SORRELS. I recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two colored men there at the windows. I do not recall seeing--specifically seeing anyone else. There may have been some one other person over there. But I do not recall specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand side of the building, where the window was open. I do not recall that.

Mr. STERN. And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was in what part of the building?

Mr. SORRELS. I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far.

Mr. STERN. And about two stories down?

Mr. SORRELS. From the top; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm?

Mr. SORRELS. I observed them first, when I first looked at the building I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the building, unless I put my head almost out the window.

But I saw people out in front, and I would not say that I saw the people as I was making the turn or subsequent to that time.

Mr. STERN. When you looked at the crowd along Houston and Elm, did you notice anything unusual?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN. You have turned now onto Elm, Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next.

Mr. SORRELS. The crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn on Elm Street there. As a matter of explanation, Elm Street goes at a downgrade--in other words, as I said a moment ago, it makes more than a left-hand--oblique left-hand turn. It curves back--I mean it is more of a sharp angle than a right angle. And then it swings down a little curve to go into the underpass.

There is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing in height as you approach the underpass from the corner at Elm and Houston Streets.

We were running late, because the President arrived at Love Field late.

Mr. Lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the schedule.

I looked back to see how close the President's car was in making the turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand turn.

Then I looked back to the right.

Mr. STERN. How close was the President's car?

Mr. SORRELS. At that time we were probably, oh, I would say, several car lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed.

Mr. STERN. You think somewhat further than you estimated before?

Mr. SORRELS. As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, "I wish he would come on, because we are late now," or words to that effect.

And I expressed to him, I said, "Oh, we are not going to be very late."

And I looked at my watch, and it was just about 12:30.

And I said, "We are not going to be over 5 minutes late," and the Chief of Police, I believe, spoke up and said, "We are about 5 minutes away now."

And so they called on the radio to the Trade Mart that we were 5 minutes away.

And it seemed like almost instantly after that, the first shot was heard.

Mr. STERN. Now, did you recognize it at the time as a shot?

Mr. SORRELS. I felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire of an automobile. And, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a firecracker.

I just said, "What's that?" And turned around to look up on this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back and up in that direction.

At that time, I did not look back up to the building, because it was way back in the back.

Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, Let's get out of here and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"

He said, "Yes."

He said, "Lead us to the hospital."

And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, Surround the building. He didn't say what building. He just said, "Surround the building." And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.

When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.

And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front. And someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest hospital.

Mr. STERN. Let's stop there and go back, and then we will pick up again.

You testified that you heard three reports?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Are you pretty certain about that?

Mr. SORRELS. Positive.

Mr. STERN. And no more and no fewer?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Can you you tell us anything about the spacing of these reports?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots.

Mr. STERN. Can you estimate the overall time from the first shot to the third shot?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I have called it out to myself, I have timed it, and I would say it was very, very close to 6 seconds.

Mr. STERN. It sounds like you can still hear the shots.

Mr. SORRELS. I will hear them forever--it is something I cannot wipe from my mind ever.

Mr. STERN. And you had little doubt that this was gunfire at the time?

Mr. SORRELS. After--as I said before, on the first shot, it was too sharp to be a backfire of an automobile. It just didn't sound like that at all. And then, of course, the other two coming as quickly as they did, and the confusion, there was no question, because I said, "Get out of here," meaning to move out, because certainly if there is anything going on like that, we don't want to even be stationary or near stationary--it is to get out of the vicinity as quickly as we can from the source of danger. I thought in my mind--my thought was that I should maybe get out to try to help apprehend who it was and so forth. There was no chance for that, because we were moving too fast.

Mr. STERN. Now, as to the apparent source of these reports, did you feel that all three reports came from the same direction?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Definitely so.

Mr. STERN. And that direction, as nearly as you can place it, was what?

Mr. SORRELS. To the right and back. That is about the only way I can express it.

And, as I said, the noise from the shots sounded like they may have come back up on the terrace there. And that is the reason I was looking around like that when the first shot. And I continued to look out until the other two shots. And then I turned on around and looked back to where the President's car was, and that is when I saw some movement there, and the car just seemed to leap forward.

Mr. STERN. When you looked at the terrace to the right of Elm Street, did you observe any unusual movement?

Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't see anything unusual at that time.

Mr STERN. Were you looking at that terrace when either the second or third shot was fired?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I was. And I saw just some movement of some people, but no firearms or anything like that, because we began to move out rather rapidly. And we were quite a ways down the street at that time.

Mr. STERN. How do you mean movement of people?

Mr. SORRELS. It seems I recall someone turned around and was going in the other direction, like moving away from the street. And that is all I can recall.

Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe anything that led you to feel that the shots might have been fired from that terrace there?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. It sounded to you at first as though it came from there?

Mr. SORRELS. That is the way it sounded--back into the rear and to the right, back up in that direction. And in the direction, of course, of the building.

But the reports seemed to be so loud, that it sounded like to me--in other words, that was my first thought, somebody up on the terrace, and that is the reason I looked there.

As we were approaching the overpass there, Mr. Lawson remarked that there was an officer on the overpass there. I saw a police officer standing there, with two or three other persons over to his right.

Mr. STERN. Where is this?

Mr. SORRELS. On the overpass, on Elm Street, after we leave the corner of Elm and Houston.

There was no activity there. They were just standing there.

And I remarked, as I recall. "A policeman is there," or words to that effect, because Mr. Lawson had been checking, as well as myself, all of the overpasses, to see that the officer was there, because that is one of the specific things that was checked all the way through.

Mr. STERN. And you observed nothing unusual on the overpass?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Were the people on the overpass in a fairly tight group, or spread out over the overpass?

Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, the police officer was about the center of the overpass on Elm Street, and then to his right--I mean to my right which would have been his left, there seemed to be, as I recall it, about three other persons up there that appeared to be workmen or dressed like that, and they were to his right.

They were not right close together, but standing within walking distance.

Mr. STERN. As far as you can recall, were all the people you saw on the overpass within the sight of the policeman on the overpass?

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; they were in the same vicinity.

Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that any of these shots might have come from the overpass?

Mr. SORRELS. None whatsoever; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. And are you certain in your own mind that they did not come from the overpass?

Mr. SORRELS. Positive.

Mr. STERN. Do you have any reason to believe that the shots could not have come from the Book Depository Building?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; they would have.

Mr. STERN. What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. SORRELS. We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.

Mr. STERN. Did you go into the hospital?

Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not go into the hospital.

Of course the lead car was in front. We went around to the emergency entrance. I jumped out of the car, and I expected to see stretchers there, out waiting, but they were not. And I ran to the entrance door there, and at that time they began to bring stretchers out, and I said, "Hurry up and get those stretchers out," and someone else, probably one of the police officers, also said to hurry up and get the stretchers out.

There was a lot of confusion around at that time.

And they did get the stretchers out. And then Mr. Johnson--they brought him into the hospital, he rushed into the hospital. And they took Mr. Connally in, loaded him first, and then the President, and just as quick as they got in there, I immediately went into a police car that was leaving and asked them to take me to the building as fast as they could, and when I said the building I meant the one on the corner there, which was the Book Depository.

Mr. STERN. Why did you designate the Book Depository?

Mr. SORRELS. Because I wanted to get there and get something going in establishing who the people were that were in that vicinity. And upon arrival at the Book Store, we pulled up on the side, and I went in the back door.

Mr. STERN. Just a minute. Had you heard any mention of the Book Depository on police broadcasts as you drove to the hospital?

Mr. SORRELS. No; I never heard anything.

Mr. STERN. And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came from the Book Depository?

Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't know at that time.

Mr. STERN. You just wanted to get to that general area?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.

And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.

There were people moving around.

I asked, "Where is the manager here?"

Mr. STERN. Just a minute.

How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.

And we came back as fast as we could.

Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.

The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.

But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.

But there was traffic that slowed us up some.

Mr. STERN. So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.

Mr. STERN. Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.

Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.

And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"

He said, "No, sir."

Did you see anyone leave the back way?

No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you get his name?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.

I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.

I identified myself to Mr. Truly.

Mr. STERN. Just a minute.

Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. STERN. There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?

Mr. SORRELS. I did not see one; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Then you got inside the building and what did you do?

Mr. SORRELS. I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.

I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."

And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"

And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.

Mr. STERN. What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?

Mr. SORRELS. Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.

In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.

Mr. STERN. You were looking for potential witnesses?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any employee might be involved one way or the other?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots came from the building.

When I was--when Mr. Brennan was pointed out to me, I went up and told him who I was and asked him if he saw anything. And he told me what he had seen. And, at that time, that is the first time that I knew definitely that any shots had come from the building.

Mr. STERN. Now, what precisely did Mr. Brennan tell you?

Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Brennan said that he was standing across the street, watching the parade, and that he, of course, was looking in the direction where the President was, and he heard a sound which he thought at first was a backfire of an automobile. And that shortly afterwards there was another sound, and that he thought that somebody might be throwing firecrackers out of the building.

And he glanced up to the building, and that he saw a man at the window on the right-hand side, the second floor from the top.

And he said, "I could see the man taking deliberate aim and saw him fire the third shot," and said then he just pulled the rifle back in and moved back from the window, just as unconcerned as could be.

Mr. STERN. How did you happen to talk to Mr. Brennan?

Mr. SORRELS. I asked--I don't know who, someone there--"Is there anyone here that saw anything?" And someone said, "That man over there."

He was out in front of the building and I went right to him.

Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else?

Mr. SORRELS. I asked him whether or not he thought he could identify the person that he saw, and he, of course, gave me a description of him, said that he appeared to be a slender man, he had on what appeared to be a light jacket or shirt or something to that effect, and that he thought he could identify him--said he was slender build. Because I was definitely interested in someone that had seen something that could give us some definite information.

And I also asked if he had seen anybody else, and he pointed to a young colored boy there, by the name of Euins. And I got him and Mr. Brennan, and I took them over to the sheriff's office where we could get statements from them.

Mr. STERN. What was the name of that young man?

Mr. SORRELS. Euins, I believe it is, or pretty close to that.

Mr. STERN. Did you interview Mr. Euins?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white.

Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything unusual about the way Mr. Brennan was dressed?

Mr. SORRELS. He was dressed as a workman, or a laborer, and he had on a hard hat.

Mr. STERN. Construction hat?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else about anything else he had observed at that time?

Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific thing.

Mr. STERN. Did he mention seeing any other person or persons in the windows of the Book Depository Building?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether he did or did not.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about observing anyone leave the Book Depository Building hurriedly after the shooting?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did he point out to you precisely the window from which he said he saw the shot fired, the window in which he saw the sniper?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Where was that window in relation to the windows at which you saw several Negro men as you drove on Houston Street?

Mr. SORRELS. It was one floor above and a little bit to the right, as I recall it.

Mr. STERN. Can you give us these directions in terms of compass points?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. That would be on the east side of the building.

Mr. STERN. So the window that Mr. Brennan pointed out to you was on the extreme east side?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And the window or windows at which you had observed several Negro men was more to the west?

Mr. SORRELS. A little bit more to the west--not very much--but to the west, on the floor below.

Mr. STERN. Are you certain in your mind about the floor below?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I am.

Mr. STERN. Is there any particular reason for that? You said before that you essentially glanced at the building, and didn't have very long to observe it, and you saw these men at the window.

What makes you certain about placing the men on any particular floor?

Mr. SORRELS. Well, because I remember that they were not near the top--I can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down from the top, as I recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor below at the place where I recall having seen the colored men.

Mr. STERN. So it was the open window afterwards that helped you recall?

Mr. SORRELS. That is right.

Mr. STERN. And are you certain that those were the same open windows?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I think they were. I don't have any reason to think otherwise.

Mr. STERN. Then you accompanied Brennan and Euins where?

Mr. SORRELS. To the sheriff's office, which was right across the street from the Book Depository.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any further conversation with them on the way over there?

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; we discussed--I was talking to him on the way over there about what they saw and observed, and told them we would like to come in there where we could get their statements down in writing.

Mr. STERN. Did they tell you anything that you have not already told us?

Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.

The little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy that ran off when this thing happened--at the first shot this boy ran off. He said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. I didn't make any effort to get in touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing.

Mr. STERN. Then you took them into the sheriff's office?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. What was going on in the sheriff's office?

Mr. SORRELS. At that time one of the deputy sheriffs was in the interrogation room taking a statement from some witness there. And I did not want to just stay there and wait too long, so I asked him would he also write up the statements on it--Mr. Brennan and the colored boy. And I then started out in the hall of the sheriff's office there with the idea of going back to see if I could locate other witnesses, when Chief Deputy Sheriff Mr. Allan Sweatt told me there was another witness across the hallway, near Mr. Sweatt's office--he is the polygraph operator there, and his office is not in the same area as the sheriff's office but across the hall--that there was an FBI agent taking a statement over there from a person.

So I accompanied him over there and hadn't been in there but just a few minutes until Mr. Sweatt came and called me out and says "Forrest, there are some people here I think you ought to talk to."

Mr. STERN. Whose statement was being taken by the FBI?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall. And, at that time----