Part 48

Mr. SORRELS. It is, I am sure, asphalt, or concrete--probably concrete. You would have to go down on Main Street, pass where you would ordinarily turn off, and then come back against traffic, which would be one way that way, and make a hairpin turn, and come back and get on there. It just is not done.

Mr. STERN. Could that reverse-S turn which you have described have been done conveniently with a car the size of the Presidential limousine?

Mr. SORRELS. No, it would not be convenient with an ordinary car, because it would be a very sharp hairpin turn, and the place that is built there is there specifically to prevent anyone from getting over on the wrong way there.

Mr. STERN. When you laid out the motorcade route and drove over it--and I take it you drove over it several times--

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you consider or discuss with Mr. Lawson the possibility of any danger to the President from the buildings along the route?

Mr. SORRELS. Well----

Mr. STERN. Did you think about any of the buildings as presenting any particular problem?

Mr. SORRELS. All buildings are a problem, as far as we are concerned. That, insofar as I have been concerned--and I am sure that every member of the Service, especially the Detail--that is always of concern to us. We always consider it a hazard. During the time that we were making this survey with the police, I made the remark that if someone wanted to get the President of the United States, he could do it with a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some hillside, because that has always been a concern to us, about the buildings.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall any further conversation, any further remarks in that conversation? Did anybody respond to that remark? Only if you recall.

Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any particular response. Probably there was confirmation of that fact, because I think that anyone that has had any experience in security measures would have the same opinion. I don't recall anyone specifically making any comment like that.

Mr. STERN. But there was no suggestion that anything might be done to minimize that risk?

Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what we always do--try to scan the windows, and if we see something suspicious, take proper action.

Mr. STERN. When you went over the parade route with the police officials, did they confirm your view that this was the proper route to use?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they did.

Mr. STERN. And there was no concern expressed by them that some other route might be better for some reason?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. I would like you now, Mr. Sorrels, to tell us something of the Protective Research activities that took place in preparation for the President's visit to Dallas, that you recall.

Mr. SORRELS. At that time, we had no known Protective Research subjects that we were making periodic checks on in that area. Mr. Lawson informed me that he had checked with PRS, and that was confirmed.

However, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some time before with Mr. Stevenson, I had instructed Special Agent John Joe Howlett, to work with the Special Services Bureau of the Police Department, and I also conferred by phone with the chief of police at Denton, Tex., because some of those individuals who were involved in the Stevenson affair were going to college there.

Mr. STERN. What was the Stevenson affair, as far as you knew?

Mr. SORRELS. That was an instance where a number of people were at a theatre, as I recall it, theatre building, when Mr. Stevenson came out, and they were there with placards, and one woman is alleged to have hit him over the head with a placard, and another individual spat upon Mr. Stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into custody. And I did not want any such instance to happen when the President of the United States was there.

Mr. STERN. How soon had that happened before the President's visit?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't remember. It was probably some 60 days, maybe, before.

It was quite some time before.

But within recent time. And so Mr. Anderson, chief of police, informed me that he had an informant that was keeping in touch with the situation. I arranged with the Dallas Police Department for Lieutenant Revill to accompany Special Agent Howlett to Denton, and confer with the police there, and to also get photographs of these individuals.

When we were conferring with Mr. Felix McKnight, the managing editor of the Dallas Times Herald, I learned that--from him--that they had photographs taken at the Stevenson incident. So arrangements were made whereby Special Agent Howlett and the members of the Dallas Police Department, together with the informant in the case, would view those films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to have been in the incident.

We had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special agent assigned to the Trade Mart, and were shown to the police officers that were assigned out in that area.

Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur in the field of Protective Research?

Mr. SORRELS. That is all I can recall at the present time.

Now, we had received, I think, some time before, a report from the FBI of an individual that might be considered a subject that we should check into. On October 30, Special Agent Vince Drain of the FBI reported a person, a member supposedly of the Ku Klux Klan in Denison, Tex., who might be suspected as a person that might try to cause some trouble if and when the President came to that area.

Lieutenant Revill got a photograph of that individual and he was checked on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at that time.

Mr. STERN. Did the FBI report anything else to your office?

Mr. SORRELS. On the morning of November 21, as I recall it, Special Agent Hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of handbills which bore a picture of the President of the United States, Mr. Kennedy, with the caption, "Wanted for Treason," with a number of numbered paragraphs supposedly outlining the reason.

Mr. STERN. Did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet?

Mr. SORRELS. I had previously received the information early in the morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found on the streets. We contacted the police department, Lieutenant Revill, and they had a number of the handbills, and they were just found on the street. We could not from the police investigation or from our inquiries, find anyone that had seen anyone actually distributing them.

And we had no other leads on the handbills at that time.

Mr. STERN. Did the Dallas police give you any information of this nature--I am not referring specifically to the handbills, but to the Protective Research area, in advance of the President's trip?

Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what I believe I have outlined with Lieutenant Revill's department there.

Mr. STERN. Was there anything else that you recall involving any person or group that might present a danger to the President?

Mr. SORRELS. There was some individuals from Grand Prairie, Tex., that were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be the type that might appear with handbills or placards--not handbills, but with placards in the area where the President might appear. And it developed that they did show up with placards at the Trade Mart, and they were taken into custody by the police department.

Mr. STERN. Did your office also take steps to assure that there would be no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, we discussed with the police what action would be taken if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. And it was very definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere fact that they had placards would not cause them to be picked up. But that we did not want them close enough to where the President would come or where he would be that these might be used to cause any harm to the President or the Vice President or members of their families.

There had recently been passed in Dallas an ordinance making it unlawful for any person to interfere or attempt to interfere with or intimidate another from freely entering premises where a private or public assembly was being held. We obtained copies of that ordinance and studied them to see what action the police would be able to take in the event that any instance arose whereby this ordinance might need to be enforced.

Mr. STERN. Now, you have told us, Mr. Sorrels, that you had no record of any PRS subject that you were checking on in your office, and that Lawson advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area in his advance check before he left Washington. Did this surprise you, that there were no individuals who had previously been identified as potential threats to the President in the territory of the Dallas office?

Mr. SORRELS. No. We had records of some subjects that were in institutions, but they were not out where they would be available.

Mr. STERN. Had there been in the past, during your tenure in the Dallas office, PRS subjects who were not in institutions?

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.

Mr. STERN. But there were none at this particular time?

Mr. SORRELS. That is right.

Mr. STERN. When the incident involving Ambassador Stevenson had occurred, did you consider obtaining information on the participants and referring that information to the Protective Research Section in Washington for their files?

Mr. SORRELS. Not unless the President or the Vice President would come to that area, I had no intention doing that, because there was no actual threat, nor was the President of the United States involved in name or otherwise, insofar as I knew, in connection with the Stevenson affair.

Mr. STERN. How has the cooperation been with local authorities and local officers of Federal agencies in advising you of any potential danger to the President?

Mr. SORRELS. We have received reports of phone calls and threats or something like that from time to time. I think that all of the Federal offices that come into any information about a threat concerning the President of the United States have certainly in the past, to my recollection--I don't recall any specific instance--but I do know we have received such reports.

Mr. STERN. And from the local police authorities?

Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific instance, but I am sure that in the past there have been instances where such a report has been reported to us.

Mr. STERN. Have you made known to the local authorities the kind of information in which you would be interested in this area?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. We have participated in the training schools of the Dallas Police Department, and the Fort Worth Police Department, the auxiliary schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Department.

We have participated in schools at Austin, Tex., given by the Department of Public Safety to investigative officers, to sheriffs-elect, deputy sheriffs and other sheriffs.

We have participated at Texas A & M College, at College Station, Tex., in their program of police training, where they have students that are members of various police departments, and other law enforcement organizations that attend their classes.

And in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the protective measures that are required and taken in connection with the protection of the President of the United States, members of his family, and the Vice President.

Mr. STERN. How is your liaison with the local police and local offices of Federal agencies?

Mr. SORRELS. I consider it very, very good.

Mr. STERN. In all respects?

Mr. SORRELS. In all respects; yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Had you requested any local Federal agency, for example FBI or Internal Revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection measures for the day of the President's visit?

Mr. SORRELS. I had offers from some of the other agencies, offering their services in case there was anything they could assist in.

The usual reply to that is that we are working with the local officials, police department, sheriff's department, Department of Public Safety, and we feel that we have sufficient manpower to take care of the program as we have in the past, and we have always suggested, in not only this instance but in other instances, that if any member of their department should hear of anything, or see anything unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in touch with us immediately, along those lines.

Mr. STERN. You felt, then, that the local police forces would supply all the outside assistance you needed for this visit?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the Dallas Police Department, in my opinion, has some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years, and due to the fact I have been located in Dallas for many, many years I know these people personally, and I have never yet called upon the Dallas Police Department, the Sheriff's Office, or the Department of Public Safety, for any assistance that we have not gotten and gotten cheerfully and willingly.

For example, the time that Mr. Kennedy came there to the hospital to see Mr. Rayburn, is a case where I could tell nobody until just a matter of 2 or 3 hours before the President would get there, that he was coming, because the afternoon before, when I heard that he was coming, it was supposed to have been off the record, and there was not supposed to be any publicity about it.

The next morning I got a call and said it would be announced at 10 o'clock in the morning.

Well, immediately after that I called Chief Curry and he met me at the hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in a matter of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be blocked by the hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around the area, in various places in the hospital, and arrangements were made to have the police cars to accompany us from the airport down there.

I consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies, not only in the Dallas area, but throughout Texas, is as good as it can be any place in the country.

Mr. STERN. On the occasion of President Kennedy's visit, they supplied all the manpower you felt was necessary?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Were all the police that had various functions along the motorcade route full-time policemen, Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. SORRELS. There may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary police which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on. I am not sure about that.

They do have reserves that they call in. But those reserves, they are not armed--they are in uniform, but they are not armed.

And my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. But I do know that they use them on occasion.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our interview, please feel free to ask them, because I am going to turn now to the actual events of the day. I believe that the other advance preparations are covered adequately for our purposes in Mr. Sorrel's memorandum, which I am about to introduce.

Mr. SMITH. I have no questions.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I am going to mark this copy of your memorandum Exhibit 4, Deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964.

Would you initial each page, please?

(Brief recess.)

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a passenger in the motorcade and thereafter.

In what car were you riding in the motorcade?

Mr. SORRELS. I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the one immediately in front of the President's car.

Mr. STERN. What was your function in the lead car?

Mr. SORRELS. To be there with the special agent who had made the survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and buildings as we drove along in the motorcade.

Mr. STERN. One of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings and the windows of the buildings?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Looking for what?

Mr. SORRELS. We always do that.

Mr. STERN. What would you be looking for?

Mr. SORRELS. Anything that to us might mean danger.

For example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or something like that--that, of course, would attract our attention. Or if someone appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or toss, we definitely would take cognizance of that immediately.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the windows as you drove along Main Street?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I do; there was a tremendous crowd on Main Street. The street was full of people. I made the remark "My God, look at the people. They are even hanging out the windows." Because I had observed many people in the windows of the buildings as we were coming along.

Mr. STERN. Now, as you made the right turn from Main Street onto Houston Street, did you observe anything about the windows of any building in your view?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I did. Of course the Court House is on the right-hand side, and the windows there appeared to be closed.

Mr. STERN. To the right-hand side of Houston Street?

Mr. SORRELS. Of Houston Street; yes, sir.

The Book Depository, as we turned to the right on Houston Street, of course, was right directly in front of us, and just to the left side of the street. I saw that building, saw that there were some windows open, and that there were some people looking from the windows. I remember distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I may have seen there. I don't recall any specific instance. But I did not see any activity--no one moving around or anything like that.

Mr. STERN. Do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows of the building?

Mr. SORRELS. I did, yes; because it was right in front.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to your right, any of the windows on that side of the building--the far right side of the building?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was at least one or two windows that were open in that section over there. I do not recall seeing anyone in any of those windows. I do not, of course, remember seeing any object or anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or anything pointing out the windows. There was no activity, no one moving around that I saw at all.

Mr. STERN. But you believe you could observe all of the windows on the side of the building facing you?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. In other words, it is just right down at the end of the street.

Mr. STERN. Now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it was a Ford sedan.

Mr. STERN. And you were in the rear seat?

Mr. SORRELS. Right rear.

Mr. STERN. Did the roof of the car obscure your view at all?

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.

Mr. STERN. But you were still able to observe the whole building?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Of course I was sitting close to--as far over to the right as I could get, and I could look out the window. I could not, of course, look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left I would not have been able to see anything that was any higher than the view of the window on the left.

Mr. STERN. You didn't have your head actually out of the window?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. But the glass was down in the window.

Mr. STERN. As you turned into Houston Street, Mr. Sorrels, can you estimate how far in front of the President's car the lead car was?

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, probably about 30 feet--fairly close.

Mr. STERN. As you approached the Book Depository Building along Houston Street, did your ability to see all of the building diminish because of the angle of your vision and the roof of the car coming in the way?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it would have. The closer you got to it, looking out from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as you approach.

But we turned to the left on Main Street, and at that time just glancing by, I could see the side of the building from the window where I was sitting in the car.

Mr. STERN. I believe you mean left onto Elm Street.

Mr. SORRELS. Elm Street--I am sorry.

Mr. STERN. So that when you turned from Houston left onto Elm, you again had a look at the building?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn--of course, as we pulled on down Elm Street, after having made the turn, it is actually more than a right angle turn. It bends even more to the left. And you can, of course, glance up like that as you go by. But as you go on by the building, the building is getting away from you, and unless you would turn clear on around and look out to the right, you would not be able to see the building after you got a little distance down Elm Street there.

Mr. STERN. Did you turn to your right and look at the building again as your car negotiated this turn onto Elm Street?

Mr. SORRELS. As the car was making the turn, yes, I was looking at the crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn.

Mr. STERN. Do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the building at that time?

Mr. SORRELS. As we were making the turn, yes, I would say that I saw all the windows in the building--just looked at the windows as we made the turn. But then I was looking at the people along the side of Elm Street, along each side.

Mr. STERN. Can you estimate, going back to the first turn into Houston Street, how long an opportunity you had to observe the building, in time?

Mr. SORRELS. On Houston Street?

Mr. STERN. Yes. As you turned right off Main onto Houston Street, the building first came into view.

Mr. SORRELS. That is right.

Mr. STERN. How long did you see the building before the roof obscured your view?

Mr. SORRELS. Of course I wasn't looking at it all the time. As we came to the right on Houston Street, of course, the building loomed up in front, and I just looked at it, and looking at the people along the side, and as we were making the turn I was just glancing like that, and saw the building.

I saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. And then after making the turn, I did not look at the building any more, or in that direction, until after the first shot.

Mr. STERN. Are you saying that you only glanced at the building then, because you were looking at other things?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I looked at the building. I didn't study it intently and look at that and nothing else around there. I looked at the building, didn't see any activity, and looked at the people as we had been doing during the entire motorcade route.

Mr. STERN. Would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer than that, or can you estimate?

Mr. SORRELS. I think it would be a matter of seconds, yes.

Mr. STERN. It is rather a large building, with a number of windows along that side, is it not?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it is a good-sized building. I believe it is seven stories high.

Mr. STERN. And you think you had enough time, though, to see all the windows, or is it a general impression.

Mr. SORRELS. Just a general impression.

In other words, I did not specifically study any specific window or anything like that. It is just like you glance out and see the building there, you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in them--that is all. There wasn't any activity or anything like that that I saw.

Mr. STERN. Now, as you turned left from Houston onto Elm and looked again at the building, did you have as long a look this time as you had before?