Part 47

Mr. NICHOLS. Well, the criminal--there are two bar associations in Dallas. One is the criminal bar association, the other is the Dallas Bar Association, and you may belong to both, or neither, or either one. The criminal bar association did, last year, attempt to create and establish a fund to defray some investigative expenses of lawyers appointed to represent indigents. One of the programs which I had hoped to get really underway last year when I was president was to, and we had a committee working on it, was to provide more lawyers who would be willing to accept appointments to represent indigent defendants in the criminal cases. My idea was that if we had 100 or 200 lawyers who would say, "If I am requested to, or appointed by the court, I will represent these people." And it was my desire to have a large number of lawyers who would do that. The committee, unfortunately, bogged down and I got involved in other matters that I guess I considered more urgent to me, and didn't pursue that, but I did go down and talk to one of the judges last year just to see what the procedure was because I was interested, and the judges do appoint these people, I mean, do appoint attorneys to represent these people, and I talked to one of the judges and he said that they have never yet had an occasion where he needed a lawyer to represent a defendant that they haven't been able to get one. So, although some of these lawyers may do this more than others, as far as I know, none of them have refused because it was too much of an imposition on them.

Mr. STERN. Your activities with respect to Oswald were unusual, though, and not pursuant to any established arrangement?

Mr. NICHOLS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Something you did because of the nature of the case, and the questions that had been raised, and your own questions about his treatment?

Mr. NICHOLS. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. Did you, Mr. Nichols, make any notes of your activities on November 23, 1963, either at the time, or did you at any later time have occasion to prepare a written report of your activities?

Mr. NICHOLS. I did not make any notes at the time, and I didn't make any notes as such, subsequently, after Mr. Oswald was killed. And why, I don't know. It didn't occur to me to do so. Later Mr. Leon Jaworski, a Houston, Tex., attorney, called me and said that he was going to go to Miami, Fla., to the meeting of American Trial Lawyers, and had been asked to make a report of some sort on the Oswald matter and he asked me if I would write him a letter outlining what I had done in connection with interviewing Oswald, and attempting to see whether or not he wanted the Dallas Bar Association to provide counsel. I did, at that time, write a letter to Mr. Jaworski outlining as I recalled at that time exactly what transpired. Later the president of the Houston Bar Association, George Barrow, called me and said he was going to make a little talk in Houston, or write a little article in a publication and would like to know what I had done, and he knew about the letter I had sent to Jaworski, and wanted to know if I would send him a copy of my letter to him, or outline what I had done. I said it would be easier to give him a copy of the letter I had written to Leon, because I have it, so I sent him a copy and those are the only notes I made or statements that I have made in writing regarding this transaction except I did reproduce a copy of the letter to Mr. Jaworski, which I furnished to you.

Mr. STERN. I show you now a copy of the letter dated February 10, 1964, to Mr. Jaworski. Is that the copy you furnished to me?

Mr. NICHOLS. That is the copy I furnished to you, and the copy of the letter which I wrote to Mr. Jaworski on that date.

Mr. STERN. Would you initial each of the four pages of that photostatic copy, please, which we'll attach to your deposition as Exhibit A.

Thank you, sir. I believe that completes all the questions I have, Mr. Nichols. Thank you very much for coming in today.

Mr. NICHOLS. You certainly are welcome.

Mr. STERN. The court reporter will transcribe the deposition and we can furnish a copy of it to you for your review and signature, or the reporter can send the transcript directly to the Commission without your review, if you care to waive----

Mr. NICHOLS. I would like to have a copy of it, if I may do so, and I understand that it will be available at some expense, whatever it costs--I want to furnish it to the bar association for their records.

Mr. STERN. Fine.

TESTIMONY OF FORREST V. SORRELS

The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 9:45 a.m., on May 7, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C. by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel for the President's Commission, and Mr. Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department were present.

Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Sorrels.

Mr. SORRELS. Good morning, sir.

Mr. STERN. You understand that this is a continuation of your deposition, and that you are still under oath?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Yesterday you covered with Mr. Hubert the events that transpired from the time of the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald forward.[1]

[1] That portion of the deposition of Forrest V. Sorrels appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the Index.

I would like to go back now with you and cover the advance preparations for the President's trip, and come up to the time of the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Would you tell us first something of your experience in Presidential protection work through the course of your career in the Secret Service?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the first real assignment that I had in connection with Presidential work was in 1936, at Dallas, Tex., when President Roosevelt came there, and there was a parade downtown, motorcade out to the Cotton Bowl at Fair Park, where he made a talk, and then from there to the Adolphus Hotel for luncheon, and from the Adolphus Hotel to Lee Park, where he unveiled a monument, and then motored to Fort Worth, Tex., where there was a reception committee that met him on the lawn at the Texas Pacific Railroad Station, and then motored to a park in Fort Worth where he made a talk, and then continued on out to his son Elliott's ranch, west of Fort Worth.

During the time that President Roosevelt was in office, there were a number of times that he came to Fort Worth to visit his son.

One in particular that I recall was during the Second World War, when it was necessary that his travels be kept secret, and we were able to get him into his son's home and visit the airplane factory where the B-36 was manufactured there at Fort Worth, and get him out of town, and it was some 2 hours after that before any reporter ever found out and called our office inquiring about the President.

I have been to Washington on inaugurations two times that I can recall, the last one being at the time that President Kennedy was inaugurated.

I have been assigned on surveys in connection with inaugurations. I have been in Mexico on three different occasions when the President visited there, to Mexico City, Monterey, the last one being at Falcon Dam, when the dam was dedicated by the two Presidents of Mexico and the United States.

Mr. STERN. That was President Eisenhower?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Have you worked on visits by President Kennedy to Texas before this?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; there were two visits that he made there--one a very short notice one of a matter of a few hours, when he came to Dallas to visit Mr. Rayburn in Baylor Hospital. Then when he came to Bonham, at the time Mr. Rayburn was buried--we had the assignments in connection with that.

Mr. STERN. These were informal trips, without publicity?

Mr. SORRELS. There was publicity. For example, the one that he came to the hospital, it wasn't announced until about 10 o'clock in the morning that he would be there.

He came there, I guess, a little over 2 or 3 hours after that--just a very quick trip, and not much time to make any preparation.

But, fortunately, everything went real good.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, is there any significant difference that occurs to you in the protective arrangements, including the advance arrangements, for the November trip to Dallas by President Kennedy, and this trip you were telling us about that President Roosevelt made to Dallas, which involved a similar motorcade, in 1936, I believe you said?

Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. About the same advance preparation?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Protective organization?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Of course in the one that President Roosevelt came there, it was more functions and more places to go, including two cities.

Mr. STERN. Yes. But----

Mr. SORRELS. But the actual preparation was along the same lines.

Mr. STERN. You have been following a procedure and pattern as long as you have been doing this kind of work?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. It has been pretty much the same procedure?

Mr. SORRELS. That is correct, sir.

Mr. STERN. When you know that a President is coming to the area under your jurisdiction, what arrangements do you try to work out with the Police Department?

Mr. SORRELS. We will have a conference with the Chief of Police and his key personnel, usually when it is determined what the program is going to be.

In some instances where there has to be a meeting with the advance man from the White House detail, and for the local committee and the plans are not entirely solid, we have found that to bring the police in at that time is a little bit premature, because I have known of instances where we have had such meetings and the orders have been cut, and then they had to be changed, because of some change.

So, insofar as is possible, the meeting with the police is held at a time when we know pretty much what the program is going to be. And that procedure is followed in every instance.

In some instances, as I mentioned a moment ago there, when President Kennedy came to the Baylor Hospital, we didn't have very much time--it is something we have to work out very rapidly, and which was done in this instance with the Chief of Police and his key men, and the security was set up on a very, very short notice.

Mr. STERN. But normally, when you have the time, you like, as I understand it, to try to make your arrangements----

Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; as far in advance as possible, because we realize that it is quite a task for them, because they have got many men involved, and many things that have to be taken into consideration, so that their orders can be properly drawn and the men dispatched to the proper places with a knowledge of what they are supposed to do.

Mr. STERN. But you do try to have the trip or the motorcade route, if there is to be a motorcade, pretty well worked out before you go to the police?

Mr. SORRELS. We usually have an idea what we would like to do, and we, of course, confer with the police because they may have in instances knowledge that we don't have about a certain area that it might not be appropriate to use or to go into.

Mr. STERN. Let's see if we can relate this now to President Kennedy's trip to Dallas in November.

When did you first hear that he was to make this trip, Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. SORRELS. On November 4, 1963, I received a long distance call from Special Agent in Charge Gerald A. Behn, of the White House Detail, stating that the President would probably visit Dallas about November 21, and that there had been a couple of buildings suggested, one of them being the Trade Mart, which he understood had about 60 entrances to it, and six catwalks over the area where the luncheon would be. And that the second choice that had been suggested then was the Women's Building at the State Fair Grounds. That was another place referred to as a trade center, which is actually Market Hall, which is across the street from the Trade Mart.

He instructed that I make a survey of these buildings and report back to him the conditions.

Mr. STERN. What did you do?

Mr. SORRELS. Accompanied by Special Agent Robert A. Stewart of my office, we went to the Trade Mart and looked the situation over there, and we did find that there were entrances coming into, you might call it, a courtyard where the luncheon was to have been--entrances coming into that area. And that there were two suspension bridges or catwalks on the second floor and on the third floor.

The outside entrances were no particular problem, but it did mean that it would take quite a bit of manpower to cover each one of the entrances that could come on to the balcony, you might say, that was entirely around on the second and the third floors.

We then went to the Market Hall, which was ideal insofar as security measures were concerned, in that there were only three outside entrances, and it was a huge hall, 107,000 square feet, with no columns, and you could seat about 20,000 people in there.

But there was another function going to be there at that time--the American Bottling Association was going to have, as I recall, an exhibit there. So that part was out.

We then went to Fair Park, where we made a survey of the Women's Building. It is a place where they have exhibits during the fair of all kinds of handiwork and things like that.

That building had about 45,000 square feet in it, and you could seat about 5,000 people in it. Securitywise it wasn't bad at all, because there were two end openings to the building, and there was actually an area where you could drive a car in there. But the building was not satisfactory for that type of function--the President of the United States coming there--because the ceilings were quite low, the air-conditioning equipment and everything was all exposed, there were many steel suspension supports throughout the area.

I then returned to my office and telephoned to Mr. Behn and informed him of my findings and told him that securitywise the Women's Building appeared to be preferable, but that it wasn't a very nice place to take the President.

Then----

Mr. STERN. What did you tell him about the Trade Mart?

Mr. SORRELS. I told him that there were many entrances there and that it would pose a problem manpowerwise to have the proper security there.

Mr. STERN. But did you indicate to him that this could be handled?

Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall whether I specifically said it could be or not. Definitely I was under the impression that if the place was chosen, we would take the necessary precautions and would have it properly manned.

Mr. STERN. You did not, in any event, tell him that you didn't think the Trade Mart would be a safe place?

Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't recall I told him it would not be a safe place, no, sir.

Mr. STERN. When did all this happen, Mr. Sorrels? Was it immediately after November 4?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it was on November 4.

Mr. STERN. What was the next event in your advance preparations for the President's trip?

Mr. SORRELS. On November 13, Special Agent Winston G. Lawson, from the White House detail, and Mr. Jack Puterbaugh, had arrived at Dallas the evening before, and they came to my office, and we then went to the office of Mr. A. W. Cullum, President of the Chamber of Commerce, and we then went to the Trade Mart, and then to the Women's Building at the State Fairgrounds.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, would you look at this Xerox copy of a two-page memorandum which appears to be signed by you, dated November 30, 1963, and carries the identifying number CO-2-34030. Can you identify that for me, please?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a memorandum which was prepared by me on November 30, 1963.

Mr. STERN. Did you make this memorandum in the ordinary course of your work, or were you specially instructed to make it?

Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was instructed to make the report, but it is a procedure we ordinarily follow in making memorandums of such surveys, in confirmation of the phone calls.

Mr. STERN. Did you make it from notes that you had or from memory?

Mr. SORRELS. Both, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did you preserve the notes from which this was made, or destroy them?

Mr. SORRELS. No, I preserved them. I have them here--regarding the phone call and the notes that I made, regarding the survey at the Trade Mart and Women's Club.

Mr. STERN. May I see them, please?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And this covers what you have just been telling us about in connection with the selection of the luncheon site for the President's visit?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed your memorandum of November 30 recently, Mr. Sorrels, in preparation for your testimony here?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there any respect in which you would like to change anything that is in the memorandum in view of your further consideration of the events described?

Mr. SORRELS. There is only one point there, about the date that we went by the police station.

Mr. STERN. Where is that covered in your memorandum?

Mr. SORRELS. That is in the last paragraph on the first page, where it is stated that on November 15, that we went to the office of the Chief of Police Curry.

I was under the impression that it was possibly the day before. I could be in error on that.

Mr. STERN. In any event, it was after Mr. Lawson had arrived, and that was on November 13?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I might state here that I had previously received two phone calls from Chief of Police Jesse Curry about the President's trip there. He was, of course, wanting to get the information as soon as possible, so that they could start their preparations. And he actually called me before Mr. Lawson got there, and he called me again after Mr. Lawson had gotten there, before we had gone to see him. And I explained to the chief that, on the first call, there would be someone from the White House detail coming to Dallas, and he requested that I get in touch with him just as soon as he got there.

On the second call, I told him that the man from the White House detail had arrived, but that we were still working on the plans, that it was not definitely known at that time where the luncheon was going to be, and that just as soon as it was determined where the luncheon was going to be, that we would then get in touch with him.

And it was at my suggestion to Mr. Lawson that we go by the Police Department on the first time, because I did not want the chief to feel that we were leaving him out in the dark, so to speak. And, for that reason, I suggested that we go by at the time we did--because, actually, we were still in the process of having these meetings to work out the final plans, and so forth.

Mr. STERN. That is the visit you refer to in this last paragraph on page 1?

Mr. SORRELS. That is right.

Mr. STERN. Your memorandum, Mr. Sorrels, gives me enough information on many of the points we are interested in, and I don't think we have to cover those, unless you would like to add something to them.

I would like to have you tell us about the selection of the motorcade route, what you had to do with that, and what you know of that.

Mr. SORRELS. After it was determined that there was going to be a motorcade, which was actually after Mr. Lawson got there, we had discussed the ways to get to the Trade Mart, and one of my questions was why don't we bring the President from the Texas Hotel to the Trade Mart by motorcade.

Mr. STERN. Texas Hotel----

Mr. SORRELS. In Fort Worth--because I knew we would be able to pick the President up at the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth, and by motor get him to the Trade Mart in a shorter time than it would take him to go from the Texas Hotel to the Air Force Base, and go by plane to Love Field, and from Love Field go to the Trade Mart.

But that was ruled out because the previous plans were that he was to come by plane. And, of course, it would not have been practical to have brought him by motor from Fort Worth if there was going to be a downtown parade, because it would have meant coming in from the west side of the city, and we would have to go right back to the west side of the city to get to the Trade Mart, which would have meant a complete loop through the downtown section.

So when it was determined that there was going to be a downtown parade, Mr. Lawson, of course, wanted to know which would be the best route to take him to the Trade Mart from Love Field.

So Mr. Lawson and I drove what I thought would be the best route and the most direct route to the Trade Mart, bearing in mind that there would be a parade through the downtown section.

So we drove that route. And then later on we had the police go with us, and we went over the same route.

There were some discussions as to one section, whether it would be better to get onto what we have known as the Central Expressway there, and come off of it into Main Street. But that was ruled out because of safety measures, going into the expressway, and it would only be for such a short distance.

Another thing, too, they wanted as many people as possible to see him, that would not have any opportunity to see him on the Central Expressway.

So the route that we chose was from Love Field approach to Mockingbird Lane, left on Mockingbird Lane to Lemmon, down Lemmon to Turtle, right on Turtle Creek to Cedar Springs, left on Cedar Springs to Harwood, right from Harwood on Main Street, continue down Main Street to Houston Street, and then make a right-hand turn to Elm Street and then under the underpass to Stemmons Expressway, which was the most direct route from there and the most rapid route to the Trade Mart.

Mr. STERN. Excuse me--you said right-hand turn to Elm. I think you mean left.

Mr. SORRELS. A right-hand turn on Houston--I am sorry--and a left-hand turn on Elm.

Now, Elm is one way going west in the direction which we would have gone, but that street is not the street that they use for parades.

Main Street is right through the heart of the city. It is the best choice for parades. It gives an opportunity for more people--tall buildings on the side of the street--and it is almost invariably--every parade that is had is on Main Street. The one in 1936, when President Roosevelt was there, was the same route in reverse, so to speak.

We came up on Houston Street from Union Station, turned right on Main Street, right on Main Street, through the very heart of the town.

Mr. STERN. And went right past the School Book Depository then on Houston Street?

Mr. SORRELS. Just within 1 block of it, because we were coming, in that instance, from the Union Station, which is south of the Depository, to Main Street, right on Main Street, which is just 1 block from the Depository.

Mr. STERN. I take it, then, that once you were told there was to be a motorcade, and approximately 45 minutes was allotted to the motorcade, this route pretty well mapped itself, apart from the question whether to use the expressway or Harwood Street to get on to Main Street, is that right?

Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. STERN. Why didn't you route the motorcade on Main Street under the triple overpass and on to Stemmons Freeway that way, instead of going to Houston and Elm?

Mr. SORRELS. Well, because you cannot get to the entrance to Stemmons Expressway on Main Street. The traffic is not routed that way. It is impractical.

On the other side of the first underpass there is a section built up to prevent cars from cutting in from Main Street to get over to Elm Street there. And if a person would go from--try to go from Main Street over to Stemmons Expressway, they would have to either hurdle this built-up place there, island, you might call it, or an extension of an island----

Mr. STERN. Do you know what this built-up place is constructed of?