Part 45

Mr. CLEMENTS. I can't fix the exact time. I am certain that I heard almost immediately after the arrest, because I learned from police personnel of the shooting of Officer Tippit, and thereafter, when they received radio reports, I was generally aware of such report. So, I became aware of the arrest of Oswald, I would say, approximately coincidentally with the front office, or with the police department learning of the arrest.

Mr. STERN. At that time his name meant nothing?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Repeat that.

Mr. STERN. His name meant nothing to you?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. Were you present when he was brought into the police headquarters?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. When did you first see Oswald?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I am, at this moment, uncertain of whether I saw him prior to personally interrogating him. I don't believe that I did.

Mr. STERN. Did you know that he was being interrogated, and that other special agents of the FBI were present?

Mr. CLEMENTS. It was my understanding that he was being questioned and that FBI agents were participating.

Mr. STERN. You were, then, pursuing other functions?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And they were, again, liaison activities?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Liaison--primarily.

Mr. STERN. Were you, Mr. Clements, the conduit for any information that the FBI had concerning Oswald, to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. I understand that you participated in an interrogation of Oswald. Would you tell me about that?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Sometime during the evening I did go to the homicide bureau office for some purpose I don't immediately recall, and there I saw one of our other agents, James Bookhout, and I asked him if anyone had, to his knowledge, taken a detailed physical description and detailed background information from Oswald. He told me that such description and background data had not been obtained, and suggested that I do it. I learned from Bookhout, as I recall, that Oswald was, at the time, in a small office, the door of which was closed.

I sought out Captain Fritz, in charge of the homicide bureau, or one of his ranking officers and asked if there was any objection to my interviewing Oswald in the regard mentioned.

I was told there was no objection. I entered this room and found that Oswald was in the room, and being guarded by two officers who I presumed to be members of the Dallas Police Department, but whom I did not personally know.

Mr. STERN. They were not interrogating him?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No; they were apparently just sitting on guard duty.

Mr. STERN. Then what happened?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I introduced myself to the officers whose names I do not believe that I got, and also introduced myself to Oswald. Exhibited my credentials and told him that I would like to obtain from him some physical description, background, biographical data. He was agreeable, and I began my interview with him.

Mr. STERN. Can you approximate the time of day that this occurred--roughly?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I would say the interview began roughly at 10 p.m.

Mr. STERN. How long did it last? And was it interrupted?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I estimate the overall interview was approximately 30 or 35 minutes. I was interrupted twice, perhaps, during the interview, being informed that he was being taken out for a lineup. While he was gone I examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, and identified to me as Oswald's wallet. When he returned I continued the interview.

Mr. STERN. Approximately how long was he gone?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I would estimate 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. STERN. So, that the total amount of time that you spent with him was something like 20 minutes?

Mr. CLEMENTS. That would be a rough estimate.

Mr. STERN. Did you see him again after that interview?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I saw him next at a time which I estimate was 11:30 p.m., the 22d. It was at a time when he was being taken to the basement of the city hall to a press conference. I saw him as he was being taken to the third floor from the offices of the homicide bureau, and I went to the basement myself arriving there before he did, and I saw him as he was being brought into the room where the press conference was held, and during the course of the press conference.

Mr. STERN. Did you see him again at any time after that press conference?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. What was his physical condition, as you observed it when you----

Mr. CLEMENTS. He----

Mr. STERN. When you entered the room to interrogate him?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I observed a bruise, a bruise in the vicinity of one of his eyes. I believe minor scratches on his face. I saw no evidence that he was suffering from any physical pain or anything of that sort.

Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. With his hands in front or behind?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Hands were in front.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem alert, or otherwise?

Mr. CLEMENTS. He seemed alert.

Mr. STERN. Will you now tell, Mr. Clements, as much as you can recall of your interrogation of Oswald at that time?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I informed him of the purpose of my interview. He made no objection. I proceeded to get his name in full. I asked him questions as to his date and place of birth, height, weight, color of his hair and eyes, and as to the existence of any permanent scars or marks. As to the identities of close relatives, their addresses and occupations, and asked him as to his own occupation, residence, attempting to get them in chronological order, and asked as to his past occupations.

Mr. STERN. Did you review with him the contents of his wallet and ask him questions on any of it?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I questioned him as to the fictitious, and obviously fictitious selective service card, which I found in his wallet. I recognized it as being fictitious card from the fact that the photograph was mounted on the card, and that there were obvious erasures in typing of information on the card itself. The card was in the name of an Alek James Hidell, but bore the photograph of Oswald.

Mr. STERN. What did he say about that card?

Mr. CLEMENTS. He declined to answer any questions as to the reason of his possession of it.

Mr. STERN. Were there any other questions you put to him that he refused to answer?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Toward the conclusion of the interview and after he had been absent and returned I continued with the questions of past residence and past occupations. He responded to my questions. At a time when I asked him as to his present occupation he hesitated and told me that he thought the obtaining of his description and background information had become somewhat prolonged. He said that he had refused to be interviewed by other law enforcement officers previously, and that he had no intention of being interviewed by me. He continued that he knew the tactics of the FBI. He stated there was a counterpart or a similar agency in Russia, that I was using the soft touch, where the approach of a Russian agency would be different, but the tactics would be the same.

Mr. STERN. At that point did he stop answering questions?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No; at that point I asked the same question that I had asked previously, and he answered.

Mr. STERN. Did the interview continue beyond that?

Mr. CLEMENTS. That was substantially the end of the interview.

Mr. STERN. Were there other persons present besides the two Dallas police officers who were guarding him?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. At either time, either before or after he had been withdrawn from the lineup?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem hostile or resentful or irritated by the fact that you were an FBI agent?

Mr. CLEMENTS. He did not state that, if that were the case. He was courteous, responsive as to any question. Volunteered little information.

Mr. STERN. But volunteered very little information. Did he seem a person in command of himself?

Mr. CLEMENTS. He seemed to be in command of himself both physically and mentally. He had what appeared to me to be a slightly haughty or arrogant attitude.

Mr. STERN. Did he complain to you about the treatment he was receiving?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything to you about obtaining counsel, whether he had tried to?

Mr. CLEMENTS. He said nothing whatsoever in that regard.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about any effort on his part to reach his family that had been unsuccessful?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No; he did not.

Mr. STERN. At the conclusion of your interview, did you leave the office in which he was being guarded and leave him behind?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; I did.

Mr. STERN. When you next saw him at this press conference in the basement, can you describe the conditions in that room? How many people were present?

Mr. CLEMENTS. The corridor on the third floor was quite crowded, and when I reached the basement there were, I would estimate, perhaps 50 people, all told, including officers, members of the press, perhaps others. There was a crowded condition I would say.

Mr. STERN. Quite a great deal of noise?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I don't recall any great amount of noise. Although, I do recall that members of the press were attempting to get Oswald to respond to questions.

Mr. STERN. How did he seem at that time?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I saw no difference in his appearance to that at the time I had talked with him.

Mr. STERN. Did he then seem to you to be in command of himself, and alert?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes; he did.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Clements, did you make a record of your interview with Oswald?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I did.

Mr. STERN. How soon after the interview did you dictate that memorandum?

Mr. CLEMENTS. The following day, November 23, 1963.

Mr. STERN. And have you reviewed that memorandum to refresh your memory of what occurred?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I have.

Mr. STERN. And you had no further contact, or didn't observe Oswald, Mr. Clements, as I understand it, from the time of the press conference until he was, himself, killed on November 24?

Mr. CLEMENTS. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. Thank you very much.

Mr. CLEMENTS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. The reporter will transcribe your testimony. You can, if you wish, review a copy of the transcript and sign it, or waive your signature and the reporter will send it directly to the Commission, whichever you prefer.

Mr. CLEMENTS. I think I would prefer to review it after it is typed.

Mr. STERN. Fine.

The reporter will get in touch with you and give you an opportunity to review it.

Thank you very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF GREGORY LEE OLDS

The testimony of Gregory Lee Olds was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. STERN. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. OLDS. I do.

Mr. STERN. Sit down, please, Mr. Olds. For the record will you state your name and address.

Mr. OLDS. Gregory Lee Olds, 1316 Timberlake, Richardson, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your profession?

Mr. OLDS. I am an editor of a weekly newspaper.

Mr. STERN. Where?

Mr. OLDS. In Richardson.

Mr. STERN. What is your connection with the Dallas Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. OLDS. I am its President.

Mr. STERN. Were you its president in November of 1963?

Mr. OLDS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell us what transpired on November 22, in connection with your efforts and the efforts of your organization to assure that Lee Harvey Oswald was not being denied his right to counsel?

Mr. OLDS. Yes. I got a phone call about 10:30 that night from one of our board members saying they had been called by the President of the Austin affiliate who was concerned about the reports that were being circulated on the air. I think Oswald was directly quoted as saying he had not been given the opportunity to have counsel, and the suggestion was made that it might be well to check into this matter, and I believe I called this--I first called the police department to inquire about this, and finally talked to Captain Fritz, Capt. Will Fritz, and was--raised the question, and he said, "No--" that Oswald had been given the opportunity and declined. And I called--then I called the board member back who had called me----

Mr. STERN. Excuse me. Did Captain Fritz say that Oswald did not want counsel at that time, or that he was trying to obtain his own counsel?

Mr. OLDS. What I was told, that he had been given the opportunity and had not made any requests. So, I called our board member back and conferred with him and he suggested that we go down and see about it at the police department, in person, to get further assurances. And he and I and two others of our organization met down there at the Plaza Hotel lobby about 11:15, directly across the street from the police station, and we discussed the matter there, and I called Mayor Earle Cabell at his office, but was told that he was busy at the moment so we went then over to the police station, and we got in there. Let's see, it was up on the--I guess the third or fourth floor, wherever Oswald was being questioned, and Chuck Webster, a lawyer--professor of law, who was known to the other three men with me said he had been there a good part of the time since the assassination, and that--we told him what we were there for, and he said he thought he knew who we could see to get our assurances. Did you have something?

Mr. STERN. No.

Mr. OLDS. We went to--first, we talked--conferred with Captain King, I believe is the right name, who is, I believe, assistant to the chief of police. I'm not sure on that. We all went in with Mr. Webster, and this was shortly after 11:35, or 11:40, and Captain King was, at this time, talking to somebody and said that Oswald had just been charged with the assassination of President Kennedy. He had here--earlier been charged with the assassination--I mean the murder of the policeman, Tippit, and we told Captain King what we were there for, and he said, he assured us that Oswald had not made any requests for counsel. And we went outside of the office and went downstairs, at least--I didn't, but two of the others, I believe, went downstairs to the basement where Justice of the Peace David Johnston was. He was the one that had held the--I believe an arraignment, I believe is the right term, at 7:30 when the first charge of murder was filed against Oswald, and he also assured us that there had been an opportunity of--Oswald's rights had been explained, and he had declined counsel. Said nothing beyond that. I think that was the extent of our inquiry.

Mr. STERN. What happened next?

Mr. OLDS. Also we were--I believe Chief Curry was quoted to us as having said some--also that Oswald had been advised of his rights to counsel. I am not sure who told me that. I believe that it was Mr. Webster. That was about all. We felt fairly well satisfied that Oswald probably had not been deprived of his rights, so, we then broke up. I think the other men went home, and I went downstairs. I heard that there was going to be a press conference, so I thought I could stand in on that and--do you want me to go ahead and detail that?

Mr. STERN. Yes, this was----

Mr. OLDS. This was right at midnight, I think, when Oswald was brought in.

Mr. STERN. Brought in where?

Mr. OLDS. This was a squadroom and I am not sure what the term is. It is in the basement of the police station. That was being used as a pressroom. I believe it is some sort of a classroom or something of that sort. He was brought in there. I suppose a hundred reporters standing around on tables, and I understand Ruby was there at the time, too, up near the front.

Mr. STERN. You don't know that, though?

Mr. OLDS. I don't remember seeing him.

Mr. STERN. Do you know Ruby?

Mr. OLDS. No; I don't. No; I remember someone saying what he was supposed to have said when--and helped somebody answer a question. I forget what it was, and Oswald came in, and he was there about 5 minutes----

Mr. STERN. Were you permitted to enter this room without displaying any identification?

Mr. OLDS. Yes; I wasn't stopped at all. Nobody seemed to pay--it was pretty well confused around there, and nobody questioned me at all.

Mr. STERN. Would you have been known to the police as a newspaperman?

Mr. OLDS. I had never been in the police building. No one had any way of knowing who I was, or what my business was.

Mr. STERN. Did you have to identify yourself to get into this building to begin with?

Mr. OLDS. No; no problem getting into the building. No one in the lobby, and I don't believe there was anyone at all until you get up to the third or fourth floor where the police department section of the building begins.

Mr. STERN. What were the conditions of this room and the scene?

Mr. OLDS. Well, you mean the room where the press conference was held, where Oswald came in? It was very noisy, and when Oswald came in it was very confusing. The reporters were yelling at each other to get out of the way, and they were, the photographers were having a very bad time with it, and people kept crowding toward the front and standing on tables so that they could see and hear and Oswald was there such a brief time, and was not able to be heard beyond the first row of reporters who were circled around him. Thereafter reporters were interviewing reporters who were on the front row to see what had been said, and some sort of confusion existed, and enough of--oh, probably 50 reporters standing around there, and it was a very confusing situation it seemed. And Oswald had to be brought through the hall on his way from the interrogation room to his cell, so, he couldn't avoid being seen, and it was at this time that he was making the statements that were being quoted.

Mr. STERN. Did you observe this?

Mr. OLDS. No; I didn't. I saw this on television, but I could imagine it from that.

Mr. STERN. How did he look to you when he was at this press conference?

Mr. OLDS. He looked remarkably composed and determined. He had a--I remarked afterwards that I would have been very much distraught, and he seemed very well self-contained and determined and maintained his innocence. I heard that, and beyond that scratch above--on his forehead and the eye that was swollen and the little--he looked all right.

He looked a little tired, of course, and I think his clothes were dirty, but he looked remarkably in good shape, I thought.

Mr. STERN. Did this give you any further assurance that--about the right to counsel question?

Mr. OLDS. Possibly so, it was----

Mr. STERN. I don't want to put the idea in your head.

Mr. OLDS. Well, I know, but we had the idea that Oswald was not being accurate when he said he had been denied, because in our dealings with the police here, we have had reason to believe that they are very careful of this sort of thing. And certainly in a case of this notoriety, certainly, our tendency was to believe that, but I have always been sorry that we didn't talk with Oswald, because it was not clear whether we would be permitted to see him that night or not.

Mr. STERN. But, you did not ask to see him?

Mr. OLDS. No; we did not, which I think was a mistake on my part.

Mr. STERN. Did anything transpire on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. OLDS. Not so much. I was watching television most of the day and then the matter of counsel was raised, I think, during that day. During the--I suppose when Oswald was being transferred in the hall again, and--let's see--this is when Mr. Nichols went down late this afternoon, I think around 5:30, and he reported after that that he had seen Oswald in respect to the same reasons that we had for going down there Saturday night, to see if he wanted some sort of legal representation, and to make sure whether or not he was denied--being denied it, and he said that he was satisfied that--in essence, Oswald told Nichols he was satisfied with the situation. I can detail this conversation if you would like, as it was told to me.

Mr. STERN. No.

Mr. OLDS. Well, that was the essence of what was found out.

Mr. STERN. Was there any mention of the American Civil Liberties Union?

Mr. OLDS. Yes; it was at this time that we first heard the idea that Oswald might be a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, and this surprised us, because we felt we would have had a record of it in our files, but there is often a lapse of time when a member moves from one area to another and it takes some time to transfer him to the local affiliate. To make sure of this I called the national office in New York City, and it was night, of course there was no one there, but I finally got a number of one of the staff members and talked to him at his home in New Jersey and told him about it, and he said, he would check on the matter. Have somebody in New York, who lived near the office to go in and see about it, and he did and they found no such record at that time.

However, it was later discovered that on November 4, he had sent a check for $2 to the office, which was, I believe, discovered 3 weeks later.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Olds, I think that covers the matters that I am interested in. Is there anything further that you would like to tell us? Anything that you----

Mr. OLDS. Possibly later after this matter was disposed of, we became interested in the legal status of Oswald's wife, Marina, and a story in the New York Times, I believe December 19, said something to the effect that perhaps she was being held incommunicado and in some way illegally detained. Anyway, her status was not clear as far as the reporter was concerned, and our national office in New York City got a number of inquiries both by phone and personal calls and letters, telegrams, and they asked us in turn then, to see what we could find out about it. After a certain amount of negotiations with the Secret Service and FBI and so on, we sent a letter to Mrs. Oswald and she later wrote us that she was content with her situation, and was very happy with her status, in fact, it was for her interest.

Mr. STERN. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Olds for coming in today.

The reporter will transcribe your testimony and you will then be notified when it is available and afforded an opportunity to read it and sign it. If you would like to waive that that is possible and the reporter would send the transcript directly to the Commission.

Mr. OLDS. I will be glad to sign it. Do you want me to come down here and do that?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. OLDS. When do you think it might be?

Mr. STERN. It should be within the next week or so.

Mr. OLDS. All right, fine.

Mr. STERN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF H. LOUIS NICHOLS

The testimony of H. Louis Nichols was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. Will you stand and raise your right and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. NICHOLS. I do.

Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. As you know the President's Commission has been instructed by President Johnson to inquire into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. This morning I would like to cover with you what you know about Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I understand you interviewed at the Dallas Police Headquarters.

Would you state your name and business address?

Mr. NICHOLS. H. Louis Nichols. 1200 Republic Bank Building, Dallas.

Mr. STERN. What is your profession?

Mr. NICHOLS. I am an attorney.

Mr. STERN. And how long have you been a member of the bar?

Mr. NICHOLS. Since 1939.

Mr. STERN. What bars are you a member of?