Part 44

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. There was no log made of it, as such, but those were the times recorded for that particular interview.

Mr. STERN. Your normal practice is to get times down pretty accurately in matter of this----

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Try to.

Mr. STERN. And did you make the record of these times, or did Agent Hosty?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can say that I did. Whether he did or not, I don't know.

Mr. STERN. Incidentally, normally, do you preserve those notes or destroy them when you make a formal report?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. They will be, normally, destroyed at the time you make your--what we refer to as an interview report.

Mr. STERN. And in this case, did you destroy your notes?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. So, you have no notes respecting this whole matter?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, other than the reported interviewing report.

Mr. STERN. Yes; when the first interview was concluded, it was, as I understand it, to take Oswald before a lineup?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. Did you go with the police taking Oswald?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I didn't go with them. In other words, it was strictly, as far as we were concerned, a police operation. I did proceed to the lineup room and observed it for the purpose of maintaining our liaison and keeping up with what was going on.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall how many people were in the lineup?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was a four-man lineup.

Mr. STERN. Did you know any of the other people?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall now their physical characteristics, as related to Oswald's physical characteristics? Were they same size as he, or noticeably larger or smaller?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I observed that the lineup consisted of four men who were numbered from left to right, one through four. Oswald was No. 2 in the lineup. All the individuals appeared to be of the same general age, height, and weight, and they were white American males.

Mr. STERN. What about the dress of all the people in the lineup?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I cannot recall specifically what the dress was, but there was nothing obviously different between their dress.

Mr. STERN. From your experience as an FBI agent, from your experience in policework, I take it you observed nothing about this lineup that was out of the ordinary?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. Did you hear what the witnesses who were present at the lineup said about the lineup?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I did not.

Mr. STERN. When the lineup was concluded, what happened next, as far as you were concerned?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I returned to the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. STERN. Was Oswald brought back there, or taken elsewhere?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was brought back to the homicide and robbery bureau, or placed in jail, but I do know that I didn't interview him any more that day.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any further contact with him that day? Friday?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. When did you next see Oswald?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it would be on the morning of November 23, 1963, in the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. STERN. This was another interrogation?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Conducted by Captain Fritz?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall who else was present, and you may refer any time to your reports to refresh your recollection.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right; that will be the interrogation that was in the presence of myself, T. J. Kelley of the U.S. Secret Service, David B. Grant, U.S. Secret Service, Robert I. Nash, U.S. marshal, and Detectives Billy L. Senkel and Fay M. Turner from the homicide and robbery bureau, Dallas Police Department. This interview was conducted, primarily, by Captain Fritz.

Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions in the course of this interview?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. What were they, and what were the responses, if you recall?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. One specific question was with regard to the selective service card in the possession of Oswald bearing a photograph of Oswald and the name Alek James Hidell. Oswald admitted he carried this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of Alek J. Hidell appearing on same. Further declined to state the purpose of carrying same, and--or any use he made of same.

Mr. STERN. Did Oswald say anything in the course of this interview with regard to obtaining a lawyer?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, it was in this interview that he mentioned he wanted to contact Attorney Abt [spelling] A-b-t, New York City. I recall Captain Fritz asked him if he knew Abt personally and he said he did not, but he explained that he knew that Abt had defended the Smith Act cases in 1949, or 1950, and Captain Fritz asked him if he knew how to get ahold of Mr. Abt, and he stated that he did not know what his address was, but he was in New York.

I recall that Captain Fritz explained to him that he would allow him to place a long distance call for Abt, and he explained to Oswald how to ask the long distance operator to trace him down and locate him, even though Oswald didn't even know his address or telephone number.

Mr. STERN. Did he actually make the call in your presence?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he didn't make the call in my presence. The next interview that we had with him, I recall that Captain Fritz asked him if he had been able to contact Mr. Abt. Oswald stated that he had made the telephone call and thanked Captain Fritz for allowing him to make the call, but actually, he had not been able to talk to Abt. He wasn't available. Wasn't in his office or something----

Mr. STERN. Was he complaining about not having counsel furnished, or did he seem satisfied with the effort to reach Abt?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he made no complaint about not being furnished an attorney. Actually, there was a good deal of conversation on that point, and he stated that he did not want any Dallas attorney representing him, and said that if he couldn't get in touch with Mr. Abt, that he would probably contact someone with the Civil Liberties Union, and have them furnish an attorney. I recall sometime during November 22 or 23, I believe it was, the head of the Dallas Bar Association appeared at the homicide and robbery bureau and requested permission to talk to Oswald. Captain Fritz gave him that permission, and when he got through talking to Oswald and came back in and told Captain Fritz that he had seen him, and that Oswald did not want anybody from Dallas to represent him.

Mr. STERN. You heard this?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was in my presence. I don't recall the name of the attorney, but I was there at the time or during that conversation.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell us approximately how long this Saturday morning interview took?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be approximately an hour. No interview that I participated in lasted over an hour, and I think roughly this one probably started around 10:35 in the morning and lasted for approximately an hour.

Mr. STERN. All right. What was his physical appearance at this time?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. His appearance was no different than it was on the 22d.

Mr. STERN. You saw no other bruises?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. Did he seem rested, or tired?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I saw no difference in his appearance on the 23d than it was on the 22d.

Mr. STERN. How about the way he handled himself? Was he any calmer, any more communicative Saturday morning than he had been Friday afternoon?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that he might not have been quite as belligerent on the 23d as he was on the 22d. But he still refused to discuss certain points indicated above, selective service card being one point that I recall. I remember he was asked if he would take a polygraph, and he said he would not, that it had always been his practice not to agree to take a polygraph.

Mr. STERN. Did he suggest that he had been asked before to take a polygraph?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He made some comment along the line that it had never been his policy--before, to take a polygraph.

Mr. STERN. But he didn't elaborate on it?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He didn't elaborate on it.

Mr. STERN. Did he make any further comment at this interview about his interviews with the FBI, or their interviews of his wife?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think probably this is the one I referred to a while ago. Yes, it would be in this interview that he made further comment that on the interview of Ruth Paine by the FBI, regarding his wife, that he felt that his wife was intimidated. Also, in this interview that he made mention as previously stated above that he had arrived about July 19, 1962, from Russia, and was interviewed by the FBI at Fort Worth, Tex.

He stated that he felt that they had overstepped their bounds and used various tactics in interviewing him.

Mr. STERN. Did he specify what the tactics were?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he did not.

Mr. STERN. In your report before this interview you mentioned that he again denied shooting President Kennedy, and apparently said that he didn't know until then that Governor Connally had been shot?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct. That was his statement, that he denied shooting President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, and commented that he did not know that Governor John Connally had been shot.

Mr. STERN. Did you form any impression about whether he was genuinely surprised? Did he look genuinely surprised to you, or how did you feel about that? I am just asking for your impression. If you don't have one, say so.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I have no impression on that. I arrived at no conclusion.

Mr. STERN. What did he say at this interview with respect to the purchase of a rifle, or possession of a rifle?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Generally, he stated that he didn't own a rifle, hadn't ever made any mail order purchase of one.

Mr. STERN. Now, did anything transpire that you observed concerning Oswald between the end of that morning interview on Saturday, and the next interview of Oswald?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. You stayed at the police headquarters in that period performing liaison functions?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. You did not observe another lineup?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were other lineups.

Mr. STERN. But you did not participate?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. But I did not observe.

Mr. STERN. Or observe?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Any others.

Mr. STERN. Now, approximately when did the next interview occur?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. The interview at about 6:30 p.m., on November 23, 1963.

Mr. STERN. How long did this interview last?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Not over an hour.

Mr. STERN. Who conducted this interview?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Captain Fritz.

Mr. STERN. Did you ask any questions, that you recall?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall asking any specific questions during this interview.

Mr. STERN. It was at this interview, was it not, that Oswald was shown photographs of himself holding a rifle and wearing a pistol in a holster?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. What was his comment about the photograph?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. His comment, as I recall, he was asked if this was his photograph, and his comment was that the head of the photograph was his, but that it could have been superimposed over the body of someone else. He pointed out that he had been apparently photographed by news media numerous times in proceeding from the homicide and robbery bureau to the lineup and back, and that is how they probably got the photograph of his face, and he went into a long discussion of how much he knew about photography, and knew that this--his face could be superimposed over somebody else's body holding the gun and pistol and so forth.

Mr. STERN. Now, was his appearance and demeanor at this interview----

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No different than it was during the previous interviews.

Mr. STERN. Did he have any comment at this interview about counsel?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. None other than at the outset of being first asked if that was his photograph, he first made the statement that he wouldn't make any comment about it without the advice of counsel, but then subsequently is when he went into the story about his face had been superimposed over somebody else's body.

Mr. STERN. Did he complain in the course of this interview about the way in which the lineup had been conducted?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. This is the interview in which he--a previously mentioned comment here was made to the effect that he had not been granted a request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in some previous lineups.

Mr. STERN. In each of these interviews was he generally taken through the same questions or similar questions, or were the interviews addressed to different areas?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. More or less, they had been to a specific area. For instance, in this last interview we are talking about, that was more or less confined to this photograph.

Mr. STERN. Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that ground before," or make any such statement?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.

Mr. STERN. Had he been confronted by the driver of the taxicab, or been told that they had located the driver of the taxicab before he changed his story, or did he volunteer the story of the taxi?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall specifically whether he was confronted with that or not.

Mr. STERN. All right. Do you recall whether in the course of any of the interrogations any official, anyone present suggested in any way to Oswald that things would be better for him if he told the truth, if he confessed? Was he ever offered any inducement--any suggestion made that he would be better off if he told the full story?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can't recall anything along that line. I don't recall any type of inducement whatsoever.

Mr. STERN. In each interview in which you participated, did you warn him about the possible use of his statement against him?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I personally did not at each interview, but I can say that at each interview he was warned. He was warned numerous times by Captain Fritz and his rights were fully explained to him.

Mr. STERN. What sort of warning would Captain Fritz give him, generally?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He gave a warning consisting of the fact that he did not have to make any statement, that any statement he made could be used against him in court, and he had the right to consult with an attorney, generally, that was the rights that were explained to him, as I recall.

Mr. STERN. This was said at each session at which you were present?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. This was given at once each time, and the question would come up later on, I mean, he would repeat himself, that, you don't have to make any statement--and so forth.

Mr. STERN. Did you observe anytime any physical or mental coercion of Oswald by anyone?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. None whatsoever.

Mr. STERN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. STERN. Now, back on the record. This interview on late Saturday afternoon, was about 6 or 6:30, is that correct?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. This one started about 6:30 p.m. And I would say it lasted about an hour.

Mr. STERN. I see. So, that is 7:30?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Was there any further interview that day that you participated in?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. None that I recall.

Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again anytime after that interview concluded?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Now, yes; on the morning of November 24, 1963, I observed him in interview with Captain Fritz and numerous other officers in the homicide and robbery bureau. Captain Fritz--I did not participate in this interview. It had already started before I arrived.

Mr. STERN. Did you notice anything unusual about his appearance?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. Did you see Oswald again?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I stayed there in the office of the homicide and robbery bureau. When I refer to "office" I mean the overall office, and inside of that office is a private office of Captain Fritz. The interview was being conducted in the private office. There is a glass partition or glass--well, say glass partition on one side of the office that you can see what is going on inside there. I took a seat adjacent to this glass area in the office proper of the homicide and robbery bureau, and watched Oswald during the interview that was going on. About--well, I don't know what time specifically, it was after 11 o'clock, as I recall, the interview terminated. I asked Captain Fritz if he had--if Oswald made any admissions, and he stated that he had not made any. Shortly thereafter he was taken out of the homicide and robbery bureau. I remained in the homicide office.

Mr. STERN. Did you see him again?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Next time I saw him was after a report came out over the intercom system for any homicide and robbery officers to report to the city hall basement. I proceeded to the basement after learning from Lieutenant Baker in the homicide and robbery bureau, who had made a telephone call to the dispatcher to inquire what was going on, that Oswald had been shot.

When I arrived in the basement I asked where was Oswald, and they said that he was in the jail office. I asked who had shot him, and I was told an individual by the name of Jack Ruby. I asked where he was. They said, they have already taken him up to the jail.

Mr. STERN. Fine.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Just shortly thereafter the ambulance came, and I observed them roll Oswald out of the jail office on the stretcher and that is the last----

Mr. STERN. I would like to clear up one point, Mr. Bookhout, about the number of interviews on Saturday. Your present recollection is that there were how many in which you participated?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Two on Saturday.

Mr. STERN. One at about what time and the other at what time?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. One was about 10:35 a.m., and the second one was about 6:30 p.m.

Mr. STERN. You do not now recall any separate interview at about 12:30 on Saturday?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't specifically recall any separate interview at that time. I checked the record before coming over and the interviews that I have mentioned are the only ones I have in the report.

Mr. STERN. Would you describe briefly the conditions in the corridor outside the homicide and robbery area.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. On November 22 and 23, the hallway in front of the homicide and robbery bureau located on the third floor of the city hall building was jammed with news media. From the elevator area to the end of the hallway, extending on past the homicide and robbery bureau entrance.

Mr. STERN. Could you hear anything from the hallway when you were in the interrogation room?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there were two Dallas Police officers on duty at the entrance to the homicide and robbery bureau, who required you to identify yourself being that--before being allowed entrance into the bureau. The interviews of Oswald were conducted in the private offices of Capt. J. W. Fritz, located within the same bureau, and the door to the private office was closed, and we did not hear any commotion going on outside in the halls while the interviews were in progress.

Mr. STERN. Did Oswald ever say anything that you heard about the press and conditions in the hallway?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. The only thing I recall offhand is the incident mentioned previously about the press undoubtedly taking his photograph when he was going and coming from the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. STERN. I think that covers all the questions I have, Mr. Bookhout. Thank you very much for coming here.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. You are welcome.

Mr. STERN. If there is anything that occurs to you that I haven't asked about and you think the Commission should know, I would be delighted to have you tell me.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can't think of anything that I could add to what you have already heard.

Mr. STERN. Now, our reporter will transcribe your testimony and can make a copy available for you to read and sign. If you think it is accurate, you can waive that if you desire, and she will then send it directly to the Commission. It makes no difference at all to the Commission which you elect.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think that as far as I am concerned, it would be all right.

Mr. STERN. Fine. Then you will waive?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. My idea--the purpose--only purpose I would have would be just to help you if there are any typographical errors in there.

Mr. STERN. Fine. And thank you for coming in today.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MANNING C. CLEMENTS

The testimony of Manning C. Clements was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Clements. Will you rise and raise your right hand, please.

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I do.

Mr. STERN. Would you please sit down. State your name and address.

Mr. CLEMENTS. Manning C. Clements, 5542 Montrose [spelling] M-o-n-t-r-o-s-e Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your occupation, Mr. Clements?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I'm a special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. STERN. How long have you been a member of the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Twenty-three years and approximately 4 months.

Mr. STERN. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office?

Mr. CLEMENTS. Since April 1952.

Mr. STERN. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty as a special agent?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I was.

Mr. STERN. Did your duties that morning before noon concern the visit of the President?

Mr. CLEMENTS. No.

Mr. STERN. Will you relate to us what happened when you first heard the news of the shooting of the President?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I arrived at the office following lunch and shortly thereafter heard of the shooting at the motorcade, and my superior instructed me to go to the office of the chief of police. I was to offer the services of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for whatever use the police might find them of benefit.

Mr. STERN. What did you do then?

Mr. CLEMENTS. I went to the police station, arriving there at approximately 1 o'clock. I immediately contacted the office of the chief. I found that he was out. I contacted Capt. Glen King, his administrative assistant, and Captain Lunday, who was also on duty in the chief's office. Contacted Art Hammet, the public relations representative, who was occupying the desk in the outer office of the chief. I informed each of them as to the reason for my presence and that any requests that they might have for FBI assistance, information or otherwise, could be given to me and I would in turn, relay their request to our Dallas office.

Mr. STERN. What occurred next?

Mr. CLEMENTS. During the course of the next several hours I was in occasional contact with various representatives of the police department, in contact with my own office by telephone. Served more or less as a liaison officer to relay instructions to any other FBI agents who were on the premises.

Mr. STERN. When did you first hear of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?