Part 43

Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on page 4?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything else you care to add to that?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr. Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle?

Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and matched the original money order was number 2-202-130-462, issued at the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of $21.45.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to repeat that?

Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it.

Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a Negro.

The Negro said, "Come on and let's eat lunch together."

Apparently both of them having a sack lunch. And he said, "You go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and I will come down just as soon as I am finished."

And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, when we first met, we sat down and I practically started taking testimony right away, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything in the short conversation we had before we started taking testimony about this matter that we haven't discussed here on the record?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. For the record, I would like to offer as a part of this deposition Holmes Exhibits 1, 2, 3, and 4, and in addition, I don't know for the record, but I would like to offer--at some of the depositions we have had delays, but will you have copies made, madam reporter?

And one final thing, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read the deposition and sign, or else you let it go to us without signing or coming back without reading it. Do you want to waive it or come back?

Mr. HOLMES. I will waive it.

Mr. BELIN. One other thing. I better mark this as Holmes Deposition, Exhibit 5.

Mr. HOLMES. I want to save that.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, I hand you Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 and ask you to state if you will what this is.

Mr. HOLMES. It is a circular-type sheet simulating a wanted circular as put out by the post office department or the FBI showing a profile view. That is two separate views of President Kennedy.

Mr. BELIN. The one that says "Wanted for Treason"?

Mr. HOLMES. Underneath his picture in large type is "Wanted for Treason."

Mr. BELIN. How did you get ahold of this document, or what is the fact involved?

Mr. HOLMES. This was handed to me by one of the postal supervisors who brought it to my office stating that it had been brought in by one of the carriers that found it in a collection box on his route.

Mr. BELIN. On what day, do you know, offhand, in relation to the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. He brought that in the afternoon of the assassination, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know how many of these were passed out?

Mr. HOLMES. No; except that it came from various sources. They were being passed out at neighborhood shopping centers, and numerous of them were brought in. This supervisor said that they had dozens of them down there, that it had come in by the carrier.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you also said that--is there anything else in regards to Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 you care to add?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you showed us your deposition Exhibit 1, this application for a post office box dated November 1, 1963, of Lee Harvey Oswald, and you said this was at the terminal annex?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How can you tell?

Mr. HOLMES. Because I recognized it as being the application, and also--I mean the application that I obtained at the terminal annex, and also the 6,000 designates that series of boxes at the terminal annex.

Mr. BELIN. And you also showed me an application for box 5475, dated November 7, 1963. Is that also the terminal annex?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. This was taken out by whom?

Mr. HOLMES. That is an application taken out by Jack Ruby on November 7, 1963, showing his firm name as being Earl Products; business, merchandising.

Mr. BELIN. We will put this as Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6. Do you know of any connection of your own knowledge between Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir; I know of none.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can say about Holmes Deposition Exhibit 6?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Other than the fact that within a week of one another these two applications were taken out at the same post office?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the only significance that it has, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. BELIN. We will offer in evidence Holmes Deposition Exhibits 5 and 6, in addition to 1 through 4.

Let the record show that the original of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 5 will be returned to Mr. Holmes, and we will just for our records have copies made by the court reporter.

Mr. HOLMES. I have a photocopy machine in my office.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, you have also asked me to make a photostatic copy of Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2 and you keep the original. This would be satisfactory for our purposes. This is the advertisement you cut out. Do you suppose you could get this to the court reporter yourself? Would you take the photostats?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Holmes, we want to certainly thank you for all the cooperation you have given the President's Commission.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES W. BOOKHOUT

The testimony of James W. Bookhout was taken at 11:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. STERN. Will you please rise.

Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I do.

Mr. STERN. Sit down, please.

Mr. STERN. State your name, please.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. James W. Bookhout. Do you want my home address?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. 7048 Cornelia Lane, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your occupation, Mr. Bookhout?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. STERN. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Little over 22 years.

Mr. STERN. How long have you been assigned to the Dallas office?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Since about 1945.

Mr. STERN. Were you on duty on November 22?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Actually, I was on leave on that particular date. However, I had been requested to come to the office to handle some expedited dictation in a particular case. Having completed that, I left the office and proceeded to the Mercantile National Bank, where I transacted some personal business. Upon leaving the bank, it was momentarily expected that the President's motorcade would pass that area. I stood there for a few minutes, and as the motorcade passed I was actually unable to personally observe the President, due to the crowd on the sidewalk. While waiting for the crowd to thin, in order to cross the street, several separate sirens on the police squad cars were heard proceeding in the direction of the county courthouse. While crossing the street, some citizen with a transistor radio stated that it had just been announced that shots had been fired at the President's motorcade.

I immediately proceeded toward the office and observed two agents coming from the direction of the office, who advised that the office was trying to contact me and I was to proceed to the homicide and robbery bureau of the Dallas Police Department.

I immediately proceeded to the homicide and robbery bureau and contacted my office and was advised that I was to maintain liaison with the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. STERN. Did you then go to the police headquarters?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; as I said, I went to the homicide and robbery bureau after contacting the Dallas office.

Mr. STERN. What then occurred at the police headquarters? Let me ask you this: How soon after you arrived there was Oswald brought in?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, it was some little time, as I recall, the next pertinent instance was a report that the Dallas Police officer had been shot, and that was in the Oak Cliff area. Captain Fritz had not returned to the office at that time. When he did return, and subsequently Oswald was apprehended in the Texas Theatre, information was passed to Captain Fritz as to the name of the suspect that they had apprehended on the Tippit shooting, and at that time he stated that that was the suspect that they were looking for on the killing of the President.

Mr. STERN. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald mean anything to you at that time?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No. Captain Fritz went on to explain that Oswald was an employee of the Texas Book Depository, who they had ascertained left his employment there subsequent to the shooting incident.

Mr. STERN. And sometime after this he was brought to the police headquarters?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Were you present when he was brought in?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Can you describe his physical condition?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I can recall one of the officers that brought him in was Paul Bentley. He is a polygraph operator in the identification division of the Dallas Police Department, and Bentley was limping, and Oswald had one eye that was swollen and a scratch mark on his forehead.

Mr. STERN. Did you observe any other bruises?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. None.

Mr. STERN. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Was he walking by himself, or being held by police officers?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. To my recollection there was an officer on each side of him that had ahold of his arms.

Mr. STERN. Was he struggling?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; just walking in, you know what I mean.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. In a normal fashion.

Mr. STERN. Then what occurred, that you observed?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I believe he was taken directly into Captain Fritz' office and the interview started at that time with Captain Fritz, and two homicide officers.

Mr. STERN. Were you present?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I was not in the office at that time. I called our office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was starting and shortly thereafter Mr. Shanklin, our SAC called back and said the Bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that Hosty, James P. Hosty, I believe was to sit in on the interview, and I was to also be present with Hosty. So, at that time, we asked Captain Fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately 3:15 p.m.

Mr. STERN. How long had the interview gone on before you were present?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Very shortly. I would give a rough estimate of not more than 5 to 10 minutes at the most.

Mr. STERN. How long did that first interview last?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. A little under an hour.

Mr. STERN. Was it interrupted at any point, if you remember?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, what I am thinking, we have got several interviews here. I know from time to time I can't recall whether it was this interview, or subsequent interviews Captain Fritz would have to leave the office for a second or two. By "office," I mean the immediate office that the interview was being conducted in, but still within the homicide and robbery office.

Mr. STERN. Did the interviewing continue when he was out of the room, or did you wait for his return?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; it would continue.

Mr. STERN. By whom was the interview conducted?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Primarily it was conducted by Captain Fritz and then before he would leave from one point to another he would ask if there was anything we wanted to ask him particularly on that point.

Mr. STERN. By "we," you mean Agent Hosty and yourself?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Right.

Mr. STERN. What was Oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? Did he seem in control of himself, excited, or calm? Can you describe his conduct?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was very arrogant and argumentative. That is about the extent of the comment on that.

Mr. STERN. Is this as to you and Hosty, or also Captain Fritz? Did he differentiate in his conduct between Captain Fritz and the two of you?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Now--no; that would apply to everyone present.

Mr. STERN. Did he answer all questions put to him or did he refuse to answer the questions?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; there would be certain questions that he refused to comment about.

Mr. STERN. When this happened was the question pressed, or another question asked?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Anyone asking the--another question would be asked.

Mr. STERN. What sort of question would he refuse to answer? Was there any pattern to his refusing?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, I am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but I recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the Selective Service card which he had in the name of Hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of Hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. I think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss.

Mr. STERN. Would you say he had a pretty good idea of what might be incriminating and what not incriminating?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I think that would call for an opinion, and I can only report the facts to you, and based on the example of the type of questions that I had commented on that he refused to answer, you will have to draw your own conclusion on that.

Mr. STERN. Fine. I am just trying to get at whether he seemed in command of himself and alert, and whether he handled himself responsibly from his own viewpoint, but if you don't want to venture an opinion, that's fine.

When you first joined the interview, did you advise him that you were an agent of the FBI, and did you say anything about warning him that evidence--that anything he said might be used?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was done by Agent Hosty.

Mr. STERN. Did he, at that point, or later say anything specifically regarding the FBI?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes.

Mr. STERN. Tell us what that was.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He accused the FBI of, generally, unfair tactics in interviewing his wife on some previous occasion.

Mr. STERN. Was this directed specifically at either you or Hosty, or to the general----

Mr. BOOKHOUT. It was directed against Hosty.

Mr. STERN. He did not, Oswald did not indicate that he knew Hosty himself, did he?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. But, there was a complaint about an interview, or interrogation of Marina Oswald?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Right.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about FBI interviews of him that had occurred in the past, any complaint about such interviews?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't know that that would be in this particular interview, but in one of the interviews which has been reported he stated that he had been interviewed at Fort Worth, Tex., by agents upon his return to the United States from Russia, and he felt that they had used unfair means of interviewing him, or something. Those are not his exact words, but that is the impression he conveyed.

Mr. STERN. Unfair in what respect?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't know.

Mr. STERN. Did he say?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No.

Mr. STERN. Tell us the nature of his complaint.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I think he probably used the expression, "Unfair tactics," or something in their interviews.

Mr. STERN. Yes. Did he indicate that he felt that the interview that was then going on was unfair in any way? Did he complain about that?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No, he didn't complain about the interview. He made a complaint or two, as I recall, that one of the interviews that has been reported, in fact, I believe it was in this first interview he complained about his hands being handcuffed behind his back, and asked Captain Fritz to remove the handcuffs. Captain Fritz had one of his officers uncuff his hands from behind his back and recuff them in front and asked him if that was more satisfactory and he stated that it was.

Mr. STERN. Any other aspect of his treatment that he complained of?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I recall one of the interviews that he complained about the lineup that he was in, that he wasn't allowed to wear a jacket similar to jackets worn by others in the lineup.

Mr. STERN. Did this occur at the lineup or subsequently?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. This was in one of the interviews in Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. STERN. Referring to a lineup that had----

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Subsequently been held--previously been held.

Mr. STERN. During the first interview was he asked whether he had ever been in Mexico, and if so, by whom?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; I recall Hosty asking him if he had ever been in Mexico.

Mr. STERN. What did he say?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he had not. I believe he mentioned he had been in Tijuana, Mexico, I believe, but I believe the question was whether he had ever been in Mexico City.

Mr. STERN. Was he asked about an organization called the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and if so, by whom?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes, he was asked if he belonged to that. I don't recall specifically who raised the question.

Mr. STERN. What did he say?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He said he was a member of it, and was secretary of the New Orleans branch. I believe he said the headquarters was in New York City.

Mr. STERN. Was there much discussion of this, or just the identification?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, now, that is another instance where he balked on answering a question. He was asked who the officers were, and at that point he said he refused to discuss the matter further.

Mr. STERN. Was he asked his residence address in Dallas and did he give it?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he furnished the address of 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. STERN. Did he say that he was living there under another name, or was another name and particularly the name O. H. Lee mentioned at all in this connection?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He was asked why he was using the name Lee at this address, and he attempted to pass it off by stating that the landlord was an old lady, and his first name was Lee and she just had gotten it in her head that he was Mr. Lee. He never did explain about the initials O. H.

Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he had shot the President, or Officer Tippit?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; he was asked that, and denied shooting either one of them, or knowing anything about it.

Mr. STERN. Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. He claimed that he had bought this some time ago in Fort Worth.

Mr. STERN. He said he had gotten it in Fort Worth?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That is my recollection, and there again, in trying to follow through on that line of thought, he refused to answer any further questions as to whereabouts in Fort Worth he had bought it.

Mr. STERN. Did he talk about his arrest and his resistance of arrest at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He admitted fighting with the officer at the time of the arrest, but I don't recall any explanation as to why he was doing it.

Mr. STERN. Did he admit that he might have been wrong in doing that, or say anything to that effect?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Seemed to me like he made the comment that the only thing he was guilty of, or the only thing he could be charged with would be the carrying of a concealed weapon, and of resisting the arrest.

Mr. STERN. When he was asked about involvement in the assassination of President Kennedy, or the shooting of Officer Tippit, how would you describe his denials?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I don't know exactly how to describe it, but as I recall, he spoke very loudly. In other words, he was--he gave an emphatic denial, that is about all I can recall on it.

Mr. STERN. I believe that in the report you filed on this first interview, you or Agent Hosty, who joined in the report with you, used the adverb "frantically" to describe his denial of an involvement. Does that refresh your recollection as to that? Would you use that word now, or was that your word?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; that was written by Hosty, and that would be his expression of describing it.

Mr. STERN. Do you think "emphatically," is perhaps the more descriptive word now?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, that would be the way I would describe it. As I said, he spoke----

Mr. STERN. I am not trying to put words into your mouth.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. He spoke loudly.

Mr. STERN. I am most interested in getting the tone of this interrogation and his state, the way he conducted himself, and that is why I ask this question, and there is something of a difference between saying a man is acting frantically as opposed to his acting emphatically.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. Well, I suppose the word, "frantically," would probably describe it. In other words, I said that he spoke loudly. There just wasn't a normal type of denial. He was--it was more than that. That is the reason I say that probably "frantically," might be a descriptive word.

Mr. STERN. Did that occur only in connection with questions about whether he had shot the President, or was the general tone of this interrogation, as far as he was concerned, at that level?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. No; he wouldn't use the same expression of speech in answering all questions. He would have certain kinds there, and certain types of questions that he would apparently have stronger feelings on.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall at any time his pounding on the desk, or making any other physical gestures of that kind?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. I don't recall him pounding on the desk; no, sir.

Mr. STERN. Now, this interview, as I understand, took approximately an hour?

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That's correct.

Mr. STERN. According to this report, you and Agent Hosty entered the interviewing around about 3:15 p.m., and it ended at 4:05.

Mr. BOOKHOUT. That would be correct.

Mr. STERN. Were these times that you or Hosty would have recorded at that moment in the ordinary course of your participation?