Part 42

"No, absolutely not."

"Had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?"

He said, "Nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "Maybe my wife, but I couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it is possible she could have."

"Well, who is A. J. Hidell?" I asked him.

And he said, "I don't know any such person."

I showed him the box rental application for the post office box in New Orleans and I read from it. I said, "Here this shows as being able to receive, being entitled to receive mail is Marina Oswald." And he said, "Well, that is my wife, so what?"

And I said also it says "A. J. Hidell."

"Well, I don't know anything about that."

That is all he would say about it.

Then Captain Fritz interrupted and said, "Well, what about this card we got out of your billfold? This draft registration card, he called it, where it showed A. J. Hidell."

"Well, that is the only time that I recall he kind of flared up and he said, "Now, I have told you all I am going to tell you about that card in my billfold." He said, "You have the card yourself, and you know as much about it as I do." And he showed a little anger. Really the only time that he flared up.

Mr. BELIN. Was there ever any mention at the time you were there of the fact that he had a right to have a lawyer present? Do you remember anything about that at all, or not?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever ask to have a lawyer present? Do you remember anything about that at all?

Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes; they talked about a lawyer, and he said he had----

Mr. BELIN. What was the conversation? Who said what?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know who started the conversation, but it had gotten into "Do you have an attorney?" He said, "No."

"Well, do you want an attorney?"

And he said, "No." Then he said, "Well, I tried to get a fellow from New York." But he said he wasn't able to get hold of him.

And I think he is a Civil Liberties Union lawyer. He mentioned something about he looks after their interests in New York. I don't remember the name, but they discussed that.

Mr. BELIN. Would it be something like Abt?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; short name. That could well be it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for any lawyer?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of police came to the office?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Along toward the end of the interrogation several people kept milling around outside of Captain Fritz' office and I noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door, and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the appearance of being impatient.

But Captain Fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and said, "Don't worry about the men. If you got any more questions, ask him."

Mr. BELIN. Who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window and would be impatient?

Mr. HOLMES. It was Chief Curry, and I didn't recognize the others, but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were waiting. They wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. In fact, the captain mentioned, he said, "We are going to have a little while to talk. I don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer."

And everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer.

Mr. BELIN. Were there glass walls on Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; with venetian blinds.

Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds closed?

Mr. HOLMES. They were closed, but you could see around the edges and through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once in a while they would crack the door and look in.

Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know, to tell you the truth.

Mr. BELIN. About how big was the office?

Mr. HOLMES. Just about as wide as this is.

Mr. BELIN. You want to pace it off here?

Mr. HOLMES. I would say 10 by 15, personally, feet.

Mr. BELIN. How many doors?

Mr. HOLMES. One door.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any other people outside there that morning other than the police officers, that you know of?

Mr. HOLMES. I recognized a couple of FBI agents. I couldn't call their names.

Mr. BELIN. Any press people that you recognized?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now.

Mr. HOLMES. Of course, when we speak of outside Fritz' office, it is still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall where the public mills around. He had a suite of rooms.

Mr. BELIN. You had one of the rooms in that suite?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. In fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has one private office of his own, and that is where we were.

Mr. BELIN. You do remember Chief Curry coming in?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that transpired between Chief Curry and Captain Fritz?

Mr. HOLMES. As Chief Curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a hanger. It was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and I recall there were two sweaters and he said, "I will just take one of those sweaters." They gave him one sweater that he did not like. No, he said, "Give me the black one."

So he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. So, while he was putting that on, Chief Curry came around the other side of the desk and took Will Fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed in an undertone. Apparently, I got the impression they weren't trying to hide anything from us, but they didn't want Oswald to overhear what they were saying. They were mumbling in an undertone and I didn't distinguish one thing that was said.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your clothes?"

And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up, and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind of =V=-neck sweater.

Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with the two Secret Service men.

Mr. BELIN. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. HOLMES. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street. Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a better eye view in case anything happens." And he said, "Well, I have my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my office, so I will just take my own car."

So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my office, which probably took me ten minutes.

When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this box, they still had the surveillance on the box--said, "Well, they got Oswald now."

I said, "What are you talking about?"

"Well, they have shot Oswald."

They had a radio sitting there going. I said, "That is not right. That is misinformation, because it hasn't been 5 or 7 or 8 minutes that I left him in his presence and he was very much alive then." And just then they kept talking on the radio, and I got to listening, and sure enough, they shot him.

Mr. BELIN. Where was your car parked? Was it parked in the basement where they were going to transfer Oswald?

Mr. HOLMES. No; out on the street.

Mr. BELIN. Now, did you ever talk to Captain Fritz or any police officer about Oswald getting shot?

Mr. HOLMES. I haven't talked or discussed this in any way.

Mr. BELIN. Not since then with any other police officer?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything said in that interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald pertaining to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. When I was discussing with him about rental application for Box No. 6225 at the terminal annex, I asked him if he had shown that anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "No."

I said, "Who did you show as your--what did you show as your business?

And he said, "I didn't show anything."

I said, "Well, your box rental application here says, 'Fair Play for Cuba Committee and the American Civil Liberties Union'."

Well, he said, "Maybe that is right, I did put them on there."

I said, "Did they, anyone, who paid for the box?"

He said, "I paid for it out of my own personal money."

"Did you rent it in the name of these organizations?"

And he said, "No."

He said, "I don't know why I put it on." He wouldn't talk about it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk about whether he believed in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. HOLMES. No; we didn't get into that. We did discuss the organization of it in New Orleans, and I got the impression that Captain Fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be real evasive. But finally he admitted that he was, he said, "Actually, it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably you could call me the secretary of it because I did collect money." In other words, "Secretary-Treasurer, because I did try to collect a little money to get literature and work with."

Then I asked--oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "In New York they have a well organized or a better organization."

Well, I asked him, or one of us asked him about, "Is that why you came to Dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in Dallas?" And he said, "No, not at all."

"Did you work on it or intend to organize here in Dallas?

"No," he said, "I didn't. I was too busy trying to get a job." That is about all he said about it.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about Oswald saying anything about his leaving the Texas School Book Depository after the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said, as I remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the Negro employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "Yes, but I can't go right now." He said, "You go and take the elevator on down." No, he said, "You go ahead, but send the elevator back up."

He didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. Nobody seemed to ask him.

You see, I assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. So I didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "Send the elevator back up to me."

Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."

And he wouldn't tell what happened then.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion--he kind of----

Mr. BELIN. Did he gesture with his hands, do you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. He talked with his hands all the time. He was handcuffed, but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. He is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building?

Mr. HOLMES. Policeman rushed--I take it back--I don't know whether he said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your telephone?"

And the man showed him some kind of credential and I don't know that he identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look at and said, "Where is the telephone?"

And I said, "Right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and I went on out.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say why he left the building?

Mr. HOLMES. No; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about.

Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald say how he got home, if he did get home?

Mr. HOLMES. They didn't--we didn't go into that. I just assumed that they had covered all that. Nobody asked him about from the minute he walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked him about the shooting of Tippit, and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about."

He said, "The only thing that I am in here for is because I popped a policeman in the nose in a threatre on Jefferson Avenue, which I readily admit I did, because I was protecting myself."

Mr. BELIN. Because he was what?

Mr. HOLMES. "Protecting myself."

Mr. BELIN. Now, I want you now to take a look for the first time during our interview here at Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4, and thus far you have been testifying just from memory, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph you have the general impression that Oswald appeared confused or in doubt.

I wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time.

Mr. HOLMES. Read it aloud or to myself?

Mr. BELIN. No; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can remember to elaborate.

Mr. HOLMES. The only part I have not covered would be the impression that I received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to a point where I doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a polygraph test, a lie detector.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you would care to elaborate?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I wonder then if you would take a look at the second paragraph that begins "P.O. Boxes."

That is really the third paragraph on the page.

Mr. HOLMES. No; I think I have, if I remember that pretty well.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is the last paragraph on the first page.

Mr. HOLMES. I believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on it.

Mr. BELIN. Turn to page 2 on the first paragraph of the next page.

Mr. HOLMES. The only thing there that I haven't covered would be that the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in Russia to change the address on a newspaper.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life in Russia?

Mr. HOLMES. He mentioned only that he met his wife in Minsk. That was her home town.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. It seemed like it was a dance. He met her at a dance, he told us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. That he took these two local newspapers for her benefit, because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting those papers. She enjoyed reading about the home folks.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about Russia? Did he ever say anything about going to Mexico? Was that ever covered?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. To the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't spend, "Where did you get the money?" He didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. He did say that where he stayed it cost $26 some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by Cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount.

They said, "Well, who furnished you the money to go to Mexico?"

"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the conversation.

Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?

Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?

Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw in Mexico?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him.

He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American. This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.

Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days," or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.

Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?

Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the Russian to go by Cuba.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?

Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.

Mr. BELIN. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum.

I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4?

Mr. HOLMES. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2?

Mr. HOLMES. I think I have covered that.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the third and last paragraph on the page.

Mr. HOLMES. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it.

Mr. BELIN. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything you care to add to that statement?

Mr. HOLMES. I can't think of anything of any particular importance there.

Mr. BELIN. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here?

Mr. HOLMES. All right as is.

Mr. BELIN. What about the second paragraph on page 3?

Mr. HOLMES. I have covered that.

Mr. BELIN. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine Corps Service."

Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe that I discussed that yet.

Mr. BELIN. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to add other than what is written on there?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally?

Mr. HOLMES. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him--somebody was shuffling the papers around, and he had no particular animosity toward him. I remember that distinctly.

Mr. BELIN. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read that and see if there is anything you care to add to that?

Mr. HOLMES. No; I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth paragraph on the page?

Mr. HOLMES. I haven't discussed that.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you would care to add to that?

Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. That is as he stated it.

Mr. BELIN. What about the last paragraph on page 3?

Mr. HOLMES. That is as I recall it at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time. And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods?

Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes."

"What was in the sack?"

"Well, my lunch."

"What size sack did you have?"

He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack."

"Was it a long sack?"

"Well, it could have been."

"What did you do with it?"

"Carried it in my lap."

"You didn't put it over in the back seat?"

"No." He said he wouldn't have done that.

"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at work and you laid it over on the back seat."

He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other time he picked me up."

That is all he said about it.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods.

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum. You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence about the curtain rods?

Mr. HOLMES. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first paragraph on page 4?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on that?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration.

Mr. BELIN. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is anything on that?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?