Part 41

Mr. HOLMES. He could not recall what the man looked like. He couldn't identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. He could not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because I have talked to him about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, on Deposition Exhibit 1, for the name of the firm or the corporation, it says, "Fair Play for Cuba Committee" and "American Civil Liberties Union," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. And kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then business address, there is a dash running through there, and home address is "3610 North Beckley," is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct. That is the address he gave as the residential address when he rented the box.

Mr. BELIN. Then there is a signature "Lee H. Oswald," with the date of November 1, 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. This clerk told me that the man definitely filled this thing out himself.

Mr. BELIN. Does the clerk remember seeing it?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. There is a stamp, which I assume is your post office stamp, that says on there, "Date box opened, November 1, 1963," and the box number is written in as "6225".

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. There--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box than there is for anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. No. That box went closed for lack of payment of rent on December 31.

Mr. BELIN. What year?

Mr. HOLMES. Of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. After you found out that this was his box, did you keep any surveillance on it?

Mr. HOLMES. We kept a 24-hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about well into Sunday, I think, 3 days.

Mr. BELIN. That is the Sunday that Lee Harvey Oswald was shot?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How many box keys were given out, according to your records, for the box?

Mr. HOLMES. One.

Mr. BELIN. Was that one ever turned back to you?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. When was that?

Mr. HOLMES. Didn't the police have it? I saw it--yes.

Mr. BELIN. You saw it at the police department?

Mr. HOLMES. I asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? I had taken the duplicate key with me to see if I could match it. They have numbers on them and I did. The detective pulled it out and said, "Is this it," in the presence of Captain Fritz, and I matched the numbers, and it was.

Mr. BELIN. Were the numbers the same for the box number as the key number?

Mr. HOLMES. No; it was a key number. Fritz kept it with the evidence.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this box or the application, Deposition Exhibit 1 here?

Mr. HOLMES. Only that an occasional Russian newspaper was received in that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed. No first-class mail. What is "The Daily Worker," sir? It's been the "Daily Worker," now.

Mr. BELIN. There was some newspaper that came? Well--some American newspaper?

Mr. HOLMES. It is what used to be "The Daily Worker," came, and a couple of Russian newspapers came there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. From Minsk. That was her hometown, Marina's hometown in Russia.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else in connection with this box and this application that you care to talk about?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then what was the next thing that you had contact with pertaining to the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. Saturday morning----

Mr. BELIN. This would be November 23?

Mr. HOLMES. Twenty-third. I came into the lobby of the terminal annex, and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the FBI agent had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post office money order.

He said he had told them that they would have to get it in Washington, but would have to know the number of the post office money order.

So he was worrying then as to how he could get that number.

So I knew about the post office money order. They said that Oswald--they said that also this FBI agent had passed on the information that, I don't know whether he told him or I called the FBI after--I went on up to my office, but somewhere I got the information that the FBI had knowledge that a gun of this particular Italian make and caliber had been purchased from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago, that it had been purchased, and the FBI furnished me the information that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963. I immediately had some men begin to search the Dallas money order records with the thought that they might have used a U.S. postal money order to buy this gun.

I didn't have any luck, so along about 11 o'clock in the morning, Saturday, I had my boys call the postal inspector. Oh, wait a minute, let's back up.

I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.

Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?

Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.

Mr. BELIN. You found a Field and Stream magazine of just November 1963?

Mr. HOLMES. It was the current magazine on the rack.

Mr. BELIN. You got it to look for a gun and identified it in this magazine? Is this the page? I will call it Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2.

Mr. HOLMES. Here, page 98.

Mr. BELIN. Well, it is on the back of a page numbered 98, is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Or the front side. I am marking on the top of it, "Holmes Deposition Exhibit 2."

Was that the page you tore out?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns identified on that page.

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I see one circled in red, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Who circled that in red?

Mr. HOLMES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. Then I see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope on it and it says, "6.5 Italian carbine," in big black letters. And underneath it says, "Late military issue. Only 40 inches overall. Weighs 7 lbs. Shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. Turned-down bolt 6-shot, clip fed, rear sight." And it is marked "$12.78."

Mr. HOLMES. With scope, it is $19.95.

Mr. BELIN. There is a number. That $12.78 says "C20-1196." And underneath that it says, "C20-750, carbine with brand new 4x-3/4" diameter (illustrated) $19.95." Is that right?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is a kind of place for clipping out of coupons. It is marked "Klein's Sporting Goods at 227 West Washington Street, Chicago 6, Illinois," then there is a place for a box to be checked. It says, "cash customers, send check or money order in full. Unless otherwise specified, send $1.00 postage and handling on any size order ... $1.50 on shotgun and rifles."

Then there is a place at the bottom of the page. It is a place for putting the name and address and the city and State, is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the $19.95 which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope, and then added the $1.50 for the charge that the coupon says for postage and handling and you come up with a total of $21.45.

I thought you said the FBI said $21.95?

Mr. HOLMES. He had, and that was the amount of money order I had been looking for. So I had my postal inspector in charge call our Chicago office and suggested that he get an inspector out to Klein's Sporting Goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order.

Mr. BELIN. So what happened?

Mr. HOLMES. So in about an hour Postal Inspector McGee of Chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $21.95--$21.45--excuse me, and that the shipping--they had received this money order on March the 13th, whereas I had been looking for March 20.

So then I passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one.

I relayed this information to them and told them to start on the 13th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within 10 minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, I don't know that I show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box 2915 and the money order had been issued early on the morning of March the 12th, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. To whom?

Mr. HOLMES. They are issued in blank. He has to fill it in.

Mr. BELIN. Does it say the name of the person who is purchased--purchasing----

Mr. HOLMES. No; you don't get----

Mr. BELIN. He had to fill it in himself?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You mentioned another post office box, and a new number there. When was that?

Mr. HOLMES. Just now?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, No. 2915?

Mr. HOLMES. That is the box he had rented at the main post office before he went to New Orleans?

Mr. BELIN. When you say the main post office, what city and State?

Mr. HOLMES. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. When did you learn about this, if you remember?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't know that I can tell. Some clerk was passing information to me and also it could have been that McGee, this inspector said it was sent to box 2915, in Dallas. I couldn't tell you when I first realized he had this box.

Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked "Holmes Deposition Exhibit 3," and ask you to state what that is?

Mr. HOLMES. That is a photostatic copy of the original box rental application covering the rental of box 2915, at the main post office in Dallas, Tex., which shows that it was completed on October the 9th, 1962. The applicants name was Lee H. Oswald, home address, 3519 Fairmore Avenue, Dallas, Tex. Signed Lee H. Oswald. It shows that the box was closed on May 14, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Now, it is stamped date box opened, October 9, 1962. And that is the same date that it appears to be written in handwriting at the bottom of it.

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you found this postal money order and then what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. Off the record, let me ask you something. I questioned him about this box and all the angles with it during this interview.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that.

Mr. HOLMES. I didn't know whether you wanted to put it in there.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to get to that. Then what did you do?

Mr. HOLMES. I gave that information to my boss by telephone. He called Washington immediately. Of course this information included the money order number. This number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out this money order, and about 7 o'clock Saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of Secret Service at Washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. I asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to A. J. Hidell, which to me then was the tip that I had the correct money order. Up to then I didn't know whether I had the correct money order or not.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know about the use of the name A. J. Hidell?

Mr. HOLMES. When the box was opened in the name of Lee H. Oswald. Because for two reasons. I--one is, when he rented the post office box in New Orleans, he used the name of A. J. Hidell as one of the persons entitled to receive mail in that box.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you know about that?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what else?

Mr. HOLMES. In his billfold the police had found a draft registration card in the name of A. J. Hidell on his person at the time of his arrest, and I had seen it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else now about this money order? Do you have a record of the number of the money order?

Mr. HOLMES. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what was the next thing you did in connection with the investigation of the assassination?

Mr. HOLMES. Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of addresses as bits of information to the FBI and the Secret Service, and sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then about Sunday morning about 9:20----

Mr. BELIN. Pardon me a second. (Discussion off the record.) Anything else now, Mr Holmes?

Mr. HOLMES. I might cover the record of his rental of the post office box in New Orleans. Do you want me to go into that?

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. HOLMES. The box rental records at New Orleans show that on June the 3d, 1963, post office box 30061 was rented to L. H. Oswald. Let me see there. Some of my information comes at times I see 30061 and at times I see 30016. I had it two places. One is a written memorandum on that new setup, and the other is what I took over the phone, and both of them show 61.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. HOLMES. I think I got a copy.

Mr. BELIN. That is all right, you can go ahead.

Mr. HOLMES. This is at the Lafayette Square Station in New Orleans. At that time he showed his home address as 657 French Street, New Orleans. On this box rental application card, he showed as being entitled to also receive mail in the box, Marina Oswald, and A. J. Hidell. This box was closed on September 26, 1963, with instructions to forward mail addressed to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.

At the time this information was checked out in New Orleans by Postal Inspector Joe Zarza, two copies of the newspaper called "The Militant," were found in the box, which had not yet been forwarded. But there was a slipup. I hate to admit that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. HOLMES. I presume my next part in connection with this was when I joined the interrogation period of Oswald on Sunday morning of November 24 at about 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Let me ask you this. Just what was the occasion of your joining this interrogation? How did you happen to be there?

Mr. HOLMES. I had been in and out of Captain Fritz' office on numerous occasions during this 2-1/2-day period.

On this morning I had no appointment. I actually started to church with my wife. I got to church and I said, "You get out, I am going down and see if I can do something for Captain Fritz. I imagine he is as sleepy as I am."

So I drove directly on down to the police station and walked in, and as I did, Captain Fritz motioned to me and said, "We are getting ready to have a last interrogation with Oswald before we transfer him to the county jail. Would you like to join us?"

I said "I would."

We went into his private room and closed the door, and those present were Captain Will Fritz, of the Dallas Police Department, Forrest V. Sorrels, local agent in charge of Secret Service, and Thomas J. Kelley, inspector, Secret Service, from Washington, and also about three detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding Oswald who was handcuffed and seated at Will Fritz' desk.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now. Will you state if you remember--do you have a written memorandum there of that interview?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would just let me ask you: When did you make your written memorandum?

Mr. HOLMES. On December 17, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people there and just cover the whole thing? I will take it up section by section. Just start out. This started around 9:30, is that it, on Sunday morning?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes, sir. Now, this is my impression, not what he said.

Mr. BELIN. I notice the first paragraph, you have an impression on that? I wonder perhaps what we might do is, I am going to see if I have a copy of this, and if I can, to attach just as a--is this an extra copy that you have here?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes; I guess you can. Let me tear that top off.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to mark this as "Holmes Deposition Exhibit No. 4." This is a memorandum of your interview?

Mr. HOLMES. That I dictated on December 17, 1963.

Mr. BELIN. That is about 4 weeks after the interview took place; is that correct?

Mr. HOLMES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any notes from which you dictated this interview?

Mr. HOLMES. I had a few notes. I had no reason for such a statement except that about that time the FBI asked me--they learned that I had been in on this interrogation, and asked me if I would object to giving them a statement as to what went on in that room, and this is my statement. Part of it was from notes and part of it was from memory.

Mr. BELIN. Now, I notice--well, you might just, without even looking at the memorandum, first just give us your general impression of what went on there.

Mr. HOLMES. There was no formality to the interrogation. One man would question Oswald. Another would interrupt with a different trend of thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal questioning or interrogation.

Oswald was quite composed. He answered readily those questions that he wanted to answer. He could cut off just like with a knife anything that he didn't want to answer.

And those particular things that he didn't want to answer were anything that pertained with the assassination of the President or the shooting of Officer Tippit. He flatly denied any knowledge of either.

He was not particularly obnoxious. He seemed to be intelligent. He seemed to be clearminded. He seemed to have a good memory, because in questioning him about the boxes, which I had original applications in front of me, he was pretty accurate. He knew box numbers and he answered these questions readily and answered them truthfully, as verified by the box rental applications that I had in front of me.

Mr. BELIN. What was Oswald wearing at the time you saw him?

Mr. HOLMES. He was bareheaded. He had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair of trousers.

Mr. BELIN. What color trousers?

Mr. HOLMES. Sort of a medium. On the light side I would say.

Mr. BELIN. What color shirt?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. It was not a loud shirt. It was not outstanding. I don't know what color actually he had on. I do know, I can tell you when he put on the black sweater and all that.

Mr. BELIN. He put on a black sweater?

Mr. HOLMES. Toward the end--that is the last thing on my memorandum.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember Captain Fritz showing a map, showing Oswald a map of the city of Dallas which had been recovered from his room?

Mr. HOLMES. He didn't show the map. He only mentioned the map and asked him about a certain map that had markings on it, and Oswald said, "Well, I presume you have reference to a map that I had in my room that had some X's on it."

And, he said, "Well, tell us about that one. Why were the X's on there? What did that designate?"

And he said that, "I have no automobile. I have no means of conveyance. I have to walk from where I am going most of the time. And I had my applications in with Texas Employment Commission. They furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like I might could fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs I might could get. I was seeking a job, and I would put these markings on this map so that I could plan my itinerary around with less walking, and each one of those represented a place where I went and interviewed for a job."

And he said, "You can check each one of them out if you want to."

Then Captain Fritz mentioned the X at the intersection of Elm and Houston.

Well, he said, "That is the location of the Texas School Depository and I did go there and interview for a job. In fact, I got a job there." He said, "That is all the map amounts to."

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else about that aspect of the interrogation?

Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember Inspector Kelley asking Oswald about his religious views?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Someone, and I don't recall who, asked the first question on that, but you got that Lenin business in there.

Mr. BELIN. I am deliberately asking you these questions before we get to your memorandum, and I am just trying to get your memory first.

Mr. HOLMES. All right. Someone asked him about what his beliefs were, and he said, "Well," about him being a Communist something. Someone referred to his communism, and he said, "I am not a Communist. I am a Marxist." And they said, what is the difference between Communist and Marxist, and he said, "Well, a Communist is a Lenin Marxist, and I am a true Karl Marxist."

So, this Secret Service inspector asked, "What religion are you?" In other words, I mean, "What faith are you, as far as religion?" And he said, "I have no faith." And then he said, "I suppose you mean the Bible."

"Yes, that is right."

"Well," he said, "I have read the Bible. It is fair reading, but not very interesting. But, as a matter of fact, I am a student of philosophy and I don't consider the Bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. I don't think much of it," he said.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone there ask him if Cuba would be better off since the President was assassinated? Do you remember anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall a question on that.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anyone asking him a question about the rifle, or there was a picture of Oswald holding a rifle. Do you remember anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him about this rifle that came to this post office box.

They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No."

Well, "Have you shot a rifle since you have been out of the Marines?"

He said, "No." Then he backed up and said, "Well, possibly a small bore, maybe a .22, but not anything larger since I have left the Marine Corps."

"Do you own a rifle?"

"Absolutely not. How would I afford a rifle. I make $1.25 an hour. I can't hardly feed myself."

Then he said, "What about this picture of you holding this rifle?"

"Well, I don't know what you are talking about."

He just cut it off. As I recall, he refused to even acknowledge there was such a picture. They had none of these exhibits in the room.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't have the picture at the time in the room when you were there?

Mr. HOLMES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone say anything about his living on a so-called Neely Street, that you remember? Or Captain Fritz, did he say that he told Oswald that friends had visited him there and that friends had seen Oswald there? Do you remember at this time anything about that?

Mr. HOLMES. I don't remember his answer to it, whether he did answer.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything--pardon me.

Mr. HOLMES. I remember Fritz, I think, describe the fellow, and he just ignored it. He was vague about it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any statements that Oswald made about any fight in New Orleans about Marxism or fair play for Cuba or anything? Does that ring a bell with you?

Mr. HOLMES. I knew all about it, and I knew the police records and all, but I don't know that it was brought up in that room at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing Alek Hidell? Or anything about Alek Hidell?

Mr. HOLMES. I brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent to him from anywhere. I said, "Did you receive mail through this box 2915 under the name of any other name than Lee Oswald," and he said, "Absolutely not."

"What about a package to an A. J. Hidell?"

He said, "No."

"Well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?"