Part 39

Mr. BELIN. Were there any people in the hallways at this time, or did anyone tell you why?

Mr. BARNES. Well----

Mr. BELIN. That is, tell you why they were going to make a paraffin test down in Captain Fritz' office rather than in your laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. No, sir; nobody said anything to me about it.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular problem that you saw insofar as taking the prisoner up to your office from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; you would have to take him through the throng of newspapermen and photographers who were in the hallway.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether this might have presented a security problem in any way?

Mr. BARNES. It would.

Mr. BELIN. What equipment did you take down to make this paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. I took paraffin, the paraffin kit that we have which consists of gauze and paraphernalia that we need to make the test.

Mr. BELIN. Was this your permanent equipment or your portable equipment? When I say your permanent, I mean your inplace equipment?

Mr. BARNES. It is the same equipment we use up in our bureau, working under makeshift conditions.

Mr. BELIN. When you use the phrase "makeshift conditions"----

Mr. BARNES. Just like putting up a portable camping ground to cook on. We have our benches to work on up at the crime scene search section which makes it handier to work with.

Mr. BELIN. Would the quality of the test be the same?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I think so. The quality would be the same, just takes a little more time and inconvenience.

Mr. BELIN. When you got down there, what did you do and see? First of all, who was in the room?

Mr. BARNES. Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. Is that L-e-a-v-e-l-l-e?

Mr. BARNES. Right. And Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any discussion, or did you hear Lee Harvey Oswald say anything or anyone say anything to Lee Harvey Oswald while you were there?

Mr. BARNES. No conversation.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BARNES. We got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and while it was being prepared, we told him that we would have to make a paraffin cast of his hand.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say to that?

Mr. BARNES. It was okay with him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything as to any other comments he had about the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. None other than he stated to me, "What are you trying to do, prove that I fired a gun?"

And I said, "I am not trying to prove that you fired a gun. We have the test to make, and the chemical people at the laboratory, at the city-county laboratory will determine the rest of it."

Mr. BELIN. What is the purpose of a paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. The purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on your hands.

Mr. BELIN. Officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin tests?

Mr. BARNES. Since 1956.

Mr. BELIN. What is the procedure by which you determine whether or not there are any nitrates on one's hand?

Mr. BARNES. The analyses are made at Parkland Hospital by their personnel.

Mr. BELIN. Do they analyze the wax?

Mr. BARNES. They analyze the wax that I remove from his hands after the casts are made.

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you were to take a paraffin or make a paraffin test on one of my hands, you would take melted hot wax and put it over my hands?

Mr. BARNES. It wouldn't be hot wax. It would have to be at a degree where it would be melted. Take a paint brush, small paint brush, dip it into the paraffin, and paint your hand as you would be painting a wall, and you build this paraffin up around and around your hand, front and back, until you get a layer approximately a quarter of an inch thick.

Then you wrap the hands in gauze, just a layer of gauze around it for reenforcement purposes such as you would put steel and concrete to reenforce it, and then on top of this gauze we put another layer of paraffin. In fact, several layers of paraffin on top of the gauze to round it out to make it more firm so that when we remove this paraffin from around his hands, we take a pair of surgical scissors and cut down each side, and it slips off just like you were removing a glove.

Mr. BELIN. You would make two cuts then, one along the side of the little finger and one along the side of the thumb?

Mr. BARNES. Well, really it is a =V=-cut on the thumb and forefinger, and a straight parallel line down the left- or right-little finger.

Mr. BELIN. On the side of the palm of the hand?

Mr. BARNES. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Have you done any reading as to what this test shows and what its limitations are at all?

Mr. BARNES. Well, yes; the purpose of it is when you put the heated paraffin on the hand, for the nitrates which might be on the hand, to be stuck to the paraffin that you place on there.

This paraffin that you place on the hand--I will rephrase this a little bit.

When you put the paraffin on your hand, the nitrates that might be on your hands will stick to the paraffin as it cools, and when you remove the paraffin, then this nitrate or powder residue which might be on the hands will be hardened into the paraffin and will slip off with the paraffin.

Mr. BELIN. Now when you say nitrates, I believe you used the word "residue"?

Mr. BARNES. Powder residue and nitrates.

Mr. BELIN. Is nitrate a compound which is in gunpowder residue?

Mr. BARNES. That is what they call the dermal nitrate test, I believe is the correct name that they give it.

Mr. BELIN. Does gunpowder generally have included in it some sort of nitrate compound?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. If I were firing a pistol, would this pistol leave a nitrate on my hands that would be detectable by the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. It should, unless it is awful tight.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by "awful tight"?

Mr. BARNES. You could have an automatic which very easily could keep you from having nitrate on your hands.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's assume that we were taking a .38 caliber pistol. You have seen the pistol which Lee Harvey Oswald had in his possession at the time he was apprehended.

Let's assume I were firing that pistol. Would it leave some residue on my hand?

Mr. BARNES. It should.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were to wash my hands between the time I fired it and the time you took the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. It would hurt the test.

Mr. BELIN. It would cut down the test?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now if I were firing it, would it necessarily show on both hands? Suppose I were right-handed?

Mr. BARNES. Depends on the location of your left hand.

Mr. BELIN. Well, generally from your experience, is there any particular location for a right-handed person to keep his hand when he is firing a pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Police officers are taught to keep their left hand near the pistol handle.

Mr. BELIN. As an element of controlling it?

Mr. BARNES. As an element of controlling, and also an element which, if you should get wounded in your right shoulder, you would have the left hand to take the gun.

Mr. BELIN. If you keep it near then, I assume that you would get the nitrate on the other hand, too, or not?

Mr. BARNES. Very likely that you would.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose I were unloading a pistol and taking the cartridge case out and putting them in my left hand or handling the chamber where the cartridge cases had been, would this leave nitrate deposits on my hand?

Mr. BARNES. It is possible.

Mr. BELIN. Suppose you were to examine my hands and you were to find no nitrate deposits at all. Would you say that this conclusively shows that I did not fire a pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, does it conclusively show I had not fired a pistol within the last 6 or 8 or 10 hours?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. BARNES. Well, a lot would depend what kind of pistol.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose it were a .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Then it would depend on whether you had cleaned your hands or whether you had had gloves on.

Mr. BELIN. Well, suppose I were to tell you I didn't have gloves on.

Mr. BARNES. Had you washed your hands?

Mr. BELIN. Well, would this make much of a difference?

Mr. BARNES. Washing your hands would make a difference.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, suppose you were to examine me for firing a rifle such as a bolt-action rifle rather than an automatic or semiautomatic. Would you expect to find nitrate residue on my hands that a paraffin test would show?

Mr. BARNES. Chances are smaller on a rifle than it would be with a revolver.

Mr. BELIN. Why?

Mr. BARNES. Because your chamber is enclosed.

Mr. BELIN. What difference does that make?

Mr. BARNES. The powder couldn't get out like a pistol where the cylinder is open, and there is no casing around the cylinder of a revolver, and the chamber of a rifle, it is enclosed with the metal all the way around.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I operate the bolt on the rifle, does that make a difference about letting the gas or residue escape?

Mr. BARNES. No; all your explosives have already gone down the barrel. It is not coming down the side when you operate the chamber. There is no pressure there.

Mr. BELIN. What you are saying then is, that it is the pressure at the time of firing in an open chamber that creates the major portion of this residue?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. If you were to have a positive nitrate test on a person's hands, and by positive, I mean it would show the presence of nitrate, would you say, without knowing anything about the firearm that the person fired, that it was more likely that he had fired a .38 caliber revolver, or a bolt-action rifle?

I mean a nonautomatic revolver?

Mr. BARNES. Let me get your question to see if I am correct. If there were nitrates present?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BARNES. In my own mind would I come to the conclusion that it would probably come from a revolver? Rather than a rifle?

Mr. BELIN. Well, nonautomatic revolver, as opposed to a rifle. Which would be more likely?

Mr. BARNES. The revolver would be more likely.

Mr. BELIN. Now you said that you took the paraffin casts off the hands. Do you generally take it of both hands when you take a paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we do.

Mr. BELIN. When you take a usual paraffin test, do you take it of any other part of the body other than the hands?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. In this case, did you take it of any other portion of the body other than the hands?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What other portion of the body did you take it of?

Mr. BARNES. The right side of his cheek and face.

Mr. BELIN. The right side of Lee Harvey Oswald's cheek and face?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who directed you to take it there?

Mr. BARNES. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Did he particularly say why he wanted it taken there?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't ask the questions why he wanted it. I was ordered to take it from him, and I took it because I had the order to take the test.

Mr. BELIN. Was there an order to take the left cheek also, or not?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you say that you had been making paraffin tests?

Mr. BARNES. Since 1956.

Mr. BELIN. Roughly, how many of those do you do in a month on an average?

Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. If I hit it lucky, I won't make too many. If it hits on some other man's duty. It would be hard to say how many I have made over a period of time. I can say that I have made many.

Mr. BELIN. Over these years, do you think you have made as many as 100?

Mr. BARNES. It would be hard to say. I am not going to go into any actual figures because it would be guesswork.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me ask you this. Of the paraffin tests that you have made, how many have you made of a cheek or cheeks?

Mr. BARNES. One.

Mr. BELIN. Was that with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. Other than that, you have never made a paraffin test of anyone's cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason why you might not have in any other case?

Mr. BARNES. It has never been requested of me before.

Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information about the science of paraffin tests, do you know whether or not it is a common practice or not a common practice to make it of one cheek?

Mr. BARNES. It is not a common practice.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason it is not a common practice, that you can think of or know of?

Mr. BARNES. Firing a revolver, should he fire a revolver, I would say the revolver most likely would be far enough away where powder residue wouldn't reach his cheek?

Mr. BELIN. What about a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. Firing a rifle, you get your chamber enclosed with steel metal around it, and the chances of powder residue would be very remote.

Mr. BELIN. Have you fired a bolt-action rifle at all before?

Mr. BARNES. Many times.

Mr. BELIN. How close would the chamber be to the cheek as you would be looking through the sight of the gun.

Mr. BARNES. Be several inches to the rear of the chamber.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have any effect on the paraffin test at all?

Mr. BARNES. It sure would.

Mr. BELIN. What about telescopic sights? Would that push your face back further or not?

Mr. BARNES. Push it even further back.

Mr. BELIN. Would this have an effect on the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. The further you get from the chamber, the less possibility of getting powder residue on it would be.

Mr. BELIN. When you made the paraffin cast on the cheek, did you also paint it on with this brush that you are talking about?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. To about a quarter of an inch thickness?

Mr. BARNES. Not quite that much.

Mr. BELIN. When you put the gauze on?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And you put some more paraffin on?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Did you cool it with water, or let it naturally harden by room temperature?

Mr. BARNES. Nature cools it from room temperature.

Mr. BELIN. Then you removed it from the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you need a scissors when you removed it from the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with these paraffin tests after you made them?

Mr. BARNES. I placed them in a manila, large manila envelope separately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I walked out of Captain Fritz' office, and I had a couple of patrolmen trying to weed their way through the news media so that I could have walking room to get to the elevator to get back to the fourth floor, the ID bureau.

Mr. BELIN. The news media had the third floor pretty well jammed at that time?

Mr. BARNES. I would say it was pretty well jammed.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of the night was this?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 9 o'clock, I would say, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald say anything to you as you were removing these casts, that you remember?

Mr. BARNES. Very little, other than what I repeated to you before, that he knew what I was trying to do, and that I was wasting my time, that he didn't know anything about what we were accusing him of.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald leave Captain Fritz' office at that time or did he stay there?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't go back, I couldn't tell you.

Mr. BELIN. He didn't come out with you, did he?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Were any remarks of any kind made to you by any of the people in the hallway, nonpolice officers, as you left the office? Questions or remarks or what have you?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. BARNES. They kept storming questions at me, "What have you got in that sack, what have you got in that sack, you owe it to the news media to give it to us, what have you got in that sack?"

Mr. BELIN. Would this just come from one person?

Mr. BARNES. All of them.

Mr. BELIN. About how many of them were there at that time?

Mr. BARNES. They had the hallways blocked.

Mr. BELIN. Did you reply to them at all or not?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't answer.

Mr. BELIN. You then went up to the fourth floor to the lab, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our locked evidence room.

Mr. BELIN. Where did they go after that?

Mr. BARNES. They go to our city-county laboratory for analysis.

Mr. BELIN. Where is that city-county laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. At Parkland Hospital.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know when they went there?

Mr. BARNES. The following morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get the results from this analysis at all?

Mr. BARNES. The results were obtained by our bureau. I didn't get the results.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what these results were?

Mr. BARNES. I understand--I haven't seen them personally--but I understand they are positive, the ones of his hands.

Mr. BELIN. By positive, you mean they showed the presence of nitrates?

Mr. BARNES. They showed the presence of nitrates.

Mr. BELIN. What about the one on the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. The one of his cheek was negative.

Mr. BELIN. Were any conclusions made because of either the positive results from the test on his hands or the negative result on the test of the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. In my own mind, I didn't expect any positive report from the cheek to start with. But to cut down criticism and to satisfy the public and to show the world that we tried to cover it very well, we did it for possibly any future--I don't know how to word it--any complaints that might come later on.

Mr. BELIN. By complaints, you mean people that might----

Mr. BARNES. Might question why you did or why you didn't do it on something this big. We felt like the public should know that we done the best that we knew how.

Mr. BELIN. Even though you didn't expect to have results?

Mr. BARNES. I didn't personally, and I am the one that made it.

From my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you fired a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. No; I have not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek after that person fired a rifle?

Mr. BARNES. I believe I am on record that that is the first paraffin test I ever made of a cheek.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test? Any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a rifle by making a cast of the cheek?

Mr. BARNES. No; I haven't read anything about it.

Mr. BELIN. Basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion are your own personal reasons?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. What you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed chamber, is that it?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Which you said that the gases would not come out of under pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad pressure?

Mr. BARNES. All your pressure is gone forward through your barrel. There is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot is fired.

Mr. BELIN. In contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when I pull the trigger, is the back of the chamber open then?

Mr. BARNES. It is open.

Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information or opinion you can give us with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. Anything you can think of, whether or not I have asked it?

Mr. BARNES. I believe you have covered just about everything.

Mr. BELIN. I call myself a country lawyer, and I don't know.

Mr. BARNES. I am a country boy. I was raised on the farm myself.

Mr. BELIN. Well, maybe we both have something in common.

Mr. BARNES. Still live there.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other evidence or information from Lee Harvey Oswald other than the paraffin that you made?

Mr. BARNES. I obtained palm prints from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do this?

Mr. BARNES. Immediately before we made--no, immediately after, I am sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test.

Mr. BELIN. I would assume you did it afterwards?

Mr. BARNES. That is right. It was after we made the tests.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you used the phrase a while ago--I mean that when we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation----

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. In that discussion did I in any way tell you what to say, or did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here?

Mr. BARNES. I told you just what I did. I haven't been prompted by no one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do when you took the palm print?

Mr. BARNES. We took them back upstairs to the ID bureau for comparison purposes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you carried back the paraffin casts?

Mr. BARNES. No. We came back and got the palm prints after I delivered the paraffin tests upstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print in Captain Fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. No; it would be something different. Usually we have them coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason that you know of why Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't brought up to your identification bureau?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What?

Mr. BARNES. Security.

Mr. BELIN. Because of the people in the hall?

Mr. BARNES. The news media in the hallways, and danger of removing Lee Harvey Oswald through the mass of newspapermen.

Mr. BELIN. Did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down the hallway to Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BARNES. Everytime that you went through there they asked you all kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much longer is it going to take, and what have you proved.

Mr. BELIN. Did you answer any of these questions?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back in the office in Captain Fritz' office? What did you find there? Who did you find in Captain Fritz' office when you came back?

Mr. BARNES. Same two officers that I mentioned, besides Detective Dhority and Detective Leavelle.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald present?

Mr. BARNES. Lee Oswald was present.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with Oswald at that time?

Mr. BARNES. None other than telling him that I had to have palm prints of his hand.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything to say about that?

Mr. BARNES. Cooperative.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the taking of any palm prints?

Mr. BARNES. None whatsoever.

Mr. BELIN. Did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or not?

Mr. BARNES. He didn't request one. He would not sign the fingerprint card when I asked him. We have a place on this card for the prisoner's signature, and I asked him would he please sign that, and he said he wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney when you took the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. None to me.

Mr. BELIN. What did you say when he said he would not sign the fingerprint card?

Mr. BARNES. That was all right with me.

Mr. BELIN. Did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. We took both.

Mr. BELIN. What is your process of doing that?

Mr. BARNES. Rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint card.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever taken palm prints before?

Mr. BARNES. Many times.

Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a person?