Part 38

Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BARNES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please sit down. You can smoke if you want to.

Mr. BARNES. It causes lung cancer.

Mr. BELIN. I don't know if I formally introduced myself. I am David Belin, actually a practicing attorney from Des Moines, Iowa, and about a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been with the President's Commission on the Assassination for most of the past 3 months as consultants, and that is how I happen to be down here in your city.

Would you please state your name for the record.

Mr. BARNES. W. E. Barnes.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Route 2, Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. BARNES. It is.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. BARNES. I am a policeman for the city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular department?

Mr. BARNES. I am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you Sergeant Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Forty-two years.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. BARNES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Went to school here?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you go to high school?

Mr. BARNES. Graduate of Plano High School.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do after you were graduated from high school?

Mr. BARNES. I worked for an aircraft company in California, and went into the Merchant Marine Service.

Mr. BELIN. That was during World War II?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the merchant marine?

Mr. BARNES. Little over 3 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. Went to work for Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. That would be in 1947 or 1946?

Mr. BARNES. 1947.

Mr. BELIN. Have you been with them ever since?

Mr. BARNES. I have been.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BARNES. Two children, boy and a girl.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I was.

Mr. BELIN. What time did you go on duty?

Mr. BARNES. I came at 7 a.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was your shift from 7 a.m., to----

Mr. BARNES. 3 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Did you leave at 3 p.m., on that day?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. When you first learned of the assassination or the shooting of the President, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. BARNES. I was in Dr. Bledsoe's office just finishing a dental appointment.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately drove to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. At about what time did you get there?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly after the President was assassinated.

Mr. BELIN. You had your appointment over the noon hour?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. BARNES. I asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene?

Mr. BELIN. You had two men?

Mr. BARNES. At the scene.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the scene, what do you mean?

Mr. BARNES. The scene of the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Were they in a building there?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who those men were?

Mr. BARNES. Detective R. L. Studebaker and Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. When you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory?

Mr. BARNES. Two men from our crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. What were you advised to do?

Mr. BARNES. I was told to standby until further notice.

Mr. BELIN. What was the next thing that occurred?

Mr. BARNES. Officer Tippit was shot at 10th and Patton in Oak Cliff.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. BARNES. I immediately went to the scene of the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the scene?

Mr. BARNES. The first thing that I did was to check the right side of Tippit's car for fingerprints.

Mr. BELIN. Did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car?

Mr. BARNES. There was several smear prints. None of value.

Mr. BELIN. Where were these smear prints located?

Mr. BARNES. Just below the top part of the door, and also on the right front fender.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to check that particular portion of the vehicle for fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. I was told that the suspect which shot Tippit had come up to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might have placed his hands on there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you do anything else at all out there?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene.

Mr. BELIN. Have you had much experience in photography?

Mr. BARNES. I have been in the crime scene search section doing this work since August 1, 1956.

Mr. BELIN. When you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb equipment or not?

Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. I assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment?

Mr. BARNES. We use flash equipment on the inside and outside when I think it is necessary.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of camera do you use?

Mr. BARNES. Speedgraphic.

Mr. BELIN. Is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often use?

Mr. BARNES. A lot of them do.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me.

Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings?

Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not sure about that.

Mr. BELIN. How do you spell that?

Mr. BARNES. P-o-e, I believe is the way he spells it.

Mr. BELIN. You think he was the one that turned over some shells?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it is. I am not too sure right now, but I believe that is what is on the report. I would have to check it to be sure.

Mr. BELIN. Would these be on your report?

Mr. BARNES. It would be on our report, at the crime scene search section.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that was turned over to you at the scene besides these hulls that you think Patrolman Poe turned over?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can remember at this time.

Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found other than these two?

Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up?

Mr. BARNES. I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what?

Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it up.

Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen?

Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What approximate location?

Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else out there?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took pictures of the Tippit vehicle?

Mr. BARNES. The what?

Mr. BELIN. Of the Tippit police car. You took pictures of that out there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the immediate vicinity of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What was that?

Mr. BARNES. I took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at the intersection of Patton and 10th. We had a report that we thought maybe that might have had some significance on the case.

I also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a jacket was discarded by the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that be?

Mr. BARNES. In the alley between Patton and the next street over.

Mr. BELIN. The next street to the west?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and the alley that ran between the two. I would have to check on the map. Cumberland--you got a street map?

Mr. BELIN. I have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment, I will try and get.

Mr. BARNES. I sure will. Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. We now have a map of Dallas, and you say that the jacket was found in the alley between Patton and Crawford? Where with relation to 10th or Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. It would be between Jefferson and 10th in the alley that separates those two streets, and running from Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. You say running from Patton and Crawford. You mean parallel?

Mr. BARNES. It runs parallel to Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. Parallel to Jefferson?

Mr. BARNES. Between Patton and Crawford.

Mr. BELIN. Between Patton and Crawford. Was there a Texaco station around there at all?

Mr. BARNES. There is a service station right south of it. The kind of station that it is, I don't recall the kind of station it was, but there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket was discarded. We got photos of this car where the jacket was found just behind it.

Mr. BELIN. Now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

(Discussion off the record for selection of pictures.)

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Barnes, I am going to hand you some pictures which we will mark as "Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, and E" on the deposition of Barnes, and I am going to ask you to state whether or not the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by you?

Mr. BARNES. They were.

Mr. BELIN. Now the first one, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A, is a picture of the Dallas Police squadcar No. 10. Was that the Tippit automobile?

Mr. BARNES. It was.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40.

Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon?

Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22.

Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures?

Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards.

Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the way that you found the car when you got there?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?

Mr. BARNES. That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted persons names on.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on this clipboard?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we never read his clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. That is the way you saw the clipboard there?

Mr. BARNES. That is the way it was.

Mr. BELIN. It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard. Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any memorandum paper on the board?

Mr. BARNES. I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition Exhibit A?

Mr. BARNES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be relevant?

Mr. BARNES. Not that I know.

Mr. BELIN. I am now turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit B. What is Exhibit B?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and also blood on the street where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B, the spot of blood where you say Tippit fell?

Mr. BARNES. (Circles.)

Mr. BELIN. You have circled that in ink. Now going back to Barnes Deposition Exhibit A: earlier, Sergeant Barnes, you said that you tried to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the car. I wonder if on Barnes Deposition Exhibit A with a red pencil you could show us the general area where you found the smears?

Mr. BARNES. [Marks with red pencil on photo.]

Mr. BELIN. You put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window, and also what I will call the right part of the top of the right-front fender near where the headlight is.

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Was this police car dirty or clean?

Mr. BARNES. Dirty.

Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not this in any way affects your ability to lift fingerprints?

Mr. BARNES. Any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting a latent print.

Mr. BELIN. Were you able to find any identifiable prints?

Mr. BARNES. No legible prints were found.

Mr. BELIN. When you came to the scene, Officer Tippit had already been removed?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on Barnes Deposition Exhibit B that you think is relevant?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Turning to Barnes Deposition Exhibit C, could you state what this is, please?

Mr. BARNES. That is a picture of squad car No. 10, which was driven by Tippit, a more distant shot showing where Tippit fell, and the scene where the squad car was.

Mr. BELIN. Had the Tippit car been moved at any time during the taking of any of these pictures by you?

Mr. BARNES. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. Anything particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition Exhibit C that you want to further discuss at this time?

Mr. BARNES. I believe not.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit D, will you state what this is?

Mr. BARNES. That is a side view of the Tippit car.

Mr. BELIN. That is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You see the houses in the background which would be roughly to the south, is that right?

Mr. BARNES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. This is a picture of the car as you found it?

Mr. BARNES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Now, do you remember whether or not the window on the driver's side was up or down?

Mr. BARNES. I believe it was down.

Mr. BELIN. Was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; Tippit's Eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them, was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car.

Mr. BELIN. Handing you Barnes Deposition Exhibit E, would you state what this is?

Mr. BARNES. This is a shot from the south looking northward at the front of the Tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. This has a caption on it, "Spot where Patrolman Tippit fell." Does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer?

Mr. BARNES. It does.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else particularly relevant about Barnes Deposition Exhibit E that you want to discuss now?

Mr. BARNES. No. I made that one [pointing].

Mr. BELIN. You are now referring to Barnes Deposition Exhibit F, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. What is that a picture of?

Mr. BARNES. That shows the rear of the Tippit car, left rear, and also a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where Tippit fell.

Mr. BELIN. At this time we introduce in evidence Barnes Deposition Exhibits A, B, C, D, E, and F, and I will just have these copies with the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. We won't ask you to make copies of these.

Now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. That is true.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, I will ask you to examine Commission Exhibits Nos. Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77, and ask you to state whether or not there appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that appear to show that they were examined or identified by you?

Mr. BARNES. I placed "B", the best that I could, inside of the hull of Exhibit 74--I believe it was Q-74 and Q-75, as you have them identified.

Mr. BELIN. Now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case hulls, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. .38 caliber pistol?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? You can identify it that way?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, did you identify out there?

Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain Doughty received the third.

Mr. BELIN. The two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you put this identification mark on the inside of?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark?

Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen.

Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. It looks like there are others that put their markings in there too.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with identifying either the slugs that were eventually removed from Officer Tippit's body, or the pistol?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. You never put any identifying marks on those. Is there anything else that you did out at the crime scene?

Mr. BARNES. We made a crime sketch of the scene.

Mr. BELIN. You made a crime sketch of the scene?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BARNES. No; not that I can recall at this time.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with those cartridge case hulls, Q-74 and Q-75?

Mr. BARNES. We placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over to the FBI. I believe Special Agent Drain of the FBI was the agent that took them.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can think of that might be relevant with regard to your work at the Tippit scene?

Mr. BARNES. None. Not at this time.

Mr. BELIN. Well, when did leave there?

Mr. BARNES. I don't know the exact hour that I left there, that I got through.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. I went on a major accident at Veterans Drive and Ledbetter.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go after that?

Mr. BARNES. Back to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any other pictures that day?

Mr. BARNES. I don't believe I did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation of the President's assassination or the murder of Officer Tippit at any other time on either Saturday the 23d or Sunday the 24th up to the time of the shooting of Oswald by Jack Ruby?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I did.

Mr. BELIN. When did you do those?

Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I finished with the Tippit car pictures.

Mr. BELIN. Would you include that as part of the Tippit investigation?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; that was in the same part.

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton?

Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the spot where you say this jacket was found?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th and Patton and the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found.

Mr. BELIN. But other than that, you then went to the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you got to the Texas Theatre, had Oswald or the person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the theatre?

Mr. BARNES. I photographed the interior of the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Any particular position of it that you remember?

Mr. BARNES. The lobby and the place where the arrest was made.

Mr. BELIN. It was after that that you then went to investigate that major automobile accident?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now after you investigated or took pictures at this major automobile accident, then what did you do?

Mr. BARNES. I returned to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you returned to the city hall?

Mr. BARNES. We started working out the evidence and developing negatives of all the photos that were taken at the Kennedy assassination site and also at the Tippit site.

Mr. BELIN. Who were you working with at that time?

Mr. BARNES. We had just about all the manpower of the crime scene search section working.

Lt. J. C. Day, myself, Detective R. L. Studebaker, Detective J. B. Hicks, and Detective R. W. Livingston.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know about what time of the day you were doing this?

Mr. BARNES. We started on it, I would say, roughly after I returned to the city hall. It was getting close to 4 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Where was this work done?

Mr. BARNES. In the crime scene search section of the identification bureau.

Mr. BELIN. On what floor is that?

Mr. BARNES. It is on the fourth floor of the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. On the fourth floor, were there any people other than police personnel?

Mr. BARNES. Not where we were; no.

Mr. BELIN. When you got there, did you see what the situation was on the third floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; we could.

Mr. BELIN. What was the situation on the third floor?

Mr. BARNES. Turmoil of news media, photographers.

Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by turmoil?

Mr. BARNES. Well, they just all of them trying to get up in there where they could get a shot.

Mr. BELIN. By a shot, you mean a picture?

Mr. BARNES. Yes; a photo. Any photos they might get for the newspapers.

In case they should get a view, they wanted to be there at the time. I presume that is what they were there for.

Mr. BELIN. Was Oswald on the third floor at the time?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did they have wires coming through the windows for television cameras, or not?

Mr. BARNES. There was wires running all over the city hall; cables.

Mr. BELIN. Cables?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about stands for lights, were they there, too?

Mr. BARNES. That's right, they come up with lights and also TV cameras to cover.

Mr. BELIN. When you say city hall, really the third floor that we are talking about is exclusively used by the police department, is that correct?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right, do you have any estimate of the number of newspaper people there were on the third floor at that time?

Mr. BARNES. It would be a guess. I wouldn't want to venture to guess, because it would be just strictly guesswork.

Mr. BELIN. More than 20?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. More than 50?

Mr. BARNES. I am not saying. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. All right, in any event, you were working on the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. BARNES. Later we went to the third floor, to the office of Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. What did you go to Captain Fritz' office for?

Mr. BARNES. To make a paraffin test of Lee Harvey Oswald's hand.

Mr. BELIN. About when would this have been, approximately, if you know?

Mr. BARNES. I tell you, the time didn't mean anything there, and it was after I returned to the city hall, and after 6 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Sometime after 6 o'clock?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz call you up and tell you to come down and make the paraffin test?

Mr. BARNES. He didn't talk to me. I was advised to go to that office to help make the paraffin test.

Mr. BELIN. By your supervisor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been?

Mr. BARNES. Lt. J. C. Day.

Mr. BELIN. Now is this the usual procedure when you are going to make a paraffin test, to go to an office such as Captain Fritz' office to do it?

Mr. BARNES. No.

Mr. BELIN. What would the usual procedure be?

Mr. BARNES. If he is alive, they usually bring them to our bureau.

Mr. BELIN. That would be to bring them up to the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. This would have necessitated, I would assume, moving the prisoner from Captain Fritz' office through the hallway up to the fourth floor?

Mr. BARNES. It would.