Part 35

Mr. BROWN. Yes; on the 22d of November I had a showup with my partner, C. N. Dhority. This occurred in the basement of the city hall with a Mr. McWatters, who is an employee of the Dallas Transit Co. as a busdriver, who at that time identified Lee Harvey Oswald as No. 2 in the four-man lineup at 6:30 p.m.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; he was. That is numbering, facing the stage from your left to right.

Mr. BELIN. You mean your left, the observers left?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; the observers left to his right.

Mr. BELIN. Do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the lineup besides Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BROWN. No; it does not.

Mr. BELIN. Where would that information be available?

Mr. BROWN. I am not for sure on that, because during the time we were taking an affidavit from Mr. McWatters in regard to him seeing Lee Harvey Oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the bus transfer.

Another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup were for other witnesses to observe.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know who else was in the lineup?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not get their names.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what McWatters said when he made his identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. McWatters said, "Yes, he is the one that got on the bus. I gave him a transfer."

Mr. BELIN. Did you show Mr. McWatters any transfer that had been found in Oswald's possession?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; at the time he was in their office.

Mr. BELIN. Did you yourself show him that?

Mr. BROWN. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see someone show him that?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; my partner, Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. What did McWatters say about that?

Mr. BROWN. He said, "That is definitely my mark."

Mr. BELIN. How did he seem to identify that?

Mr. BROWN. By taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. He did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, and he held it up for comparison there in our presence.

Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else about McWatters at all that you remember?

Mr. BROWN. Nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the identification that he did give us of Oswald in this lineup.

Mr. BELIN. All right, any other showups on that day or any other day?

Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. We had showups.

Mr. BELIN. Who else?

Mr. BROWN. About 7:30, or 7:45 p.m., that same day my partner, C. N. Dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the Officer Tippit murder from 400 East 10th Street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home.

After their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room where again Oswald and three more men were being shown to other witnesses. Their names unknown. They were definitely and positively identified by these two. One was Mrs. Barbara Davis and one Mrs. Barbara Jeannette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Was----

Mr. BROWN. Wait a minute, I am sorry. It was Mrs. Virginia Davis, and Mrs. Barbara Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Were you there when they made their identification?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was. This was 7:45 p.m., November 22.

Mr. BELIN. Who did they pick?

Mr. BROWN. They picked Lee Harvey Oswald again, which was No. 2, in a four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Harvey Oswald in the four-man lineup?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. They identified him as the man?

Mr. BROWN. Definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got them under the numbers, too.

Mr. BELIN. They saw him right away, you mean?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; they definitely picked him instantly.

Mr. BELIN. Instantly, you have just snapped your hands there?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with that identification?

Mr. BROWN. That is the only two that I was active insofar as the showups and identification of Lee Harvey Oswald by any of the witnesses on either Officer Tippit or the President's assassination.

Mr. BELIN. All right, is there anything else you had to do with the murder of Officer Tippit's investigation or the investigation of the assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. In regard to the Officer Tippit murder, the same date, November 22, 1963, Lt. T. P. Wells received a telephone call from a Mrs. Barbara Davis of 400 East 10th stating that her sister-in-law of the same address, her name as Mrs. Virginia Davis, had found an additional empty .38 caliber shell cartridge in her front yard.

Lieutenant Wells ordered my partner, C. N. Dhority, and I, to go to the Davis residence where Mrs. Barbara Davis handed my partner this spent hull at approximately 7 p.m., that evening. That was brought to the homicide and robbery bureau by myself and Detective Dhority.

Mr. BELIN. Was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the two women?

Mr. BROWN. At the same time the Davis women were brought to the office for affidavits and identification.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you turn that cartridge shell over to?

Mr. BROWN. That went to the crime lab, Dallas Crime Lab.

Mr. BELIN. Did you, yourself, turn it over?

Mr. BROWN. No; Detective Dhority handled that.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Dhority handled that?

Mr. BROWN. We were keeping this evidence in a chain there. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis handed him the spent cartridge. He gave it to the crime lab himself, which was initialled by both of us.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else, sir?

Mr. BROWN. None in regard to any evidence or identification of any further witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else in connection with either the assassination or the Tippit murder?

Mr. BROWN. None that I recall at this time, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have our court reporter send it directly to Washington. You can take your choice.

Mr. BROWN. Well, I have no reason to read it for any reason at all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive signing it then?

Mr. BROWN. That would be fine. Waive signing, and you can send it right out. To the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and the cooperation of the Dallas Police Department.

TESTIMONY OF L. C. GRAVES

Testimony of L. C. Graves was taken at 3:10 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GRAVES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name, for the reporter?

Mr. GRAVES. My name is L. C. Graves.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation, Mr. Graves?

Mr. GRAVES. I am a detective with the police department, city of Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. GRAVES. I am 45 years old.

Mr. BELIN. Were you born and raised in Texas?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; I was born and raised in Camp County, October 8, 1918.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you go to school?

Mr. GRAVES. Leesburg--I mean to Pittsburg.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mr. GRAVES. I finished 10-1/2 years of schooling in Pittsburg and Leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Then what did I do?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRAVES. Oh, let's see. From there I went into the CCC camp.

Mr. BELIN. For a period of several years?

Mr. GRAVES. Let's see, I think a couple of years, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. I came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then I joined the Texas National Guard, and shortly after that it mobilized and I went into active service, at which time I stayed until I was discharged after the war.

Mr. BELIN. Was this an honorable discharge?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What were your duties in the Army, say, generally?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I was in the Infantry, and I was a mess sergeant, and I cooked principally all the time I was in.

Mr. BELIN. You were the one we all complained about when the food wasn't good?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; if you want to put it that way. I got a few complaints.

Mr. BELIN. Then after your discharge, what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. After my discharge, I came to Dallas, I married and went to work for Interstate Theatres. First went to work for Railway Express Agency here and worked for a short period of time and then I went to work for Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me retract that. I believe I went to work for S. H. Lynch Co. first and later changed to Paramount Distributors, and they went broke, and then I went with Interstate Theatres, and that is where I was working when I went to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were they all related? In other words, when you say Paramount, was that----

Mr. GRAVES. No. S. H. Lynch Co. had a cigarette-candy item section of the company in connection with the beer distributors. Paramount Distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business, which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the movie industry or picture industry, so to speak.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that aspect of the business?

Mr. GRAVES. The Paramount Distributors, I was a bookkeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went from there to where?

Mr. GRAVES. Interstate Theatres.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do for Interstate Theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. They call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration.

Mr. BELIN. Of theatres?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then from there you went to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BELIN. What year was that?

Mr. GRAVES. October 31, 1949.

Mr. BELIN. And you have been with the Dallas Police Department ever since?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Graves, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Was that an off day for you, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; it was.

Mr. BELIN. When did you go to work, if at all?

Mr. GRAVES. About 2 o'clock that day.

Mr. BELIN. Had you already heard the news of the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, yes. When I came to work, I had already heard. That is the reason I went to work, as a matter of fact.

Mr. BELIN. On November 22, 1963, could you state what you did after you got to the Dallas Police Station?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, the first thing that I did was take a statement from, I believe her name was, Helen Markham.

Let me see; yes, I took a statement from Miss or Mrs. Helen Markham.

Mr. BELIN. How did you happen to see Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her over there, and when I walked in they told me to go talk to this lady and take an affidavit from her, which I did.

Mr. BELIN. You say she was quite hysterical. Describe her actions.

Mr. GRAVES. She was crying and upset, naturally.

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting.

Mr. BELIN. You took an affidavit from her?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I held a showup along with Leavelle and the Chief and Captain Fritz, and I don't remember who else, about a roomful.

Mr. BELIN. Could you state what occurred in that showup? How many people were in this showup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember exactly how many people.

Mr. BELIN. You mean of the men that were actually lined up?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. I believe four or five, I think. He was identified as No. 2 man. Let me see, he was identified as No. 2 man in a four-man lineup, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who the people were who were in this particular lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't know. Nobody but Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 2 man in that lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have any recollection or notes which would in any way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. I was present out in the front with Mrs. Markham, and I don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men that were on the stage. It is quite possible that they might have the names of the other people that were in this lineup, but I don't myself. I don't remember this physical description.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not they were all white men or was one or more a Negro?

Mr. GRAVES. They were all white men.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about their approximate ages?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I don't. Let me say this, that it would be very unusual if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, I might add, because we just don't operate that way.

Mr. BELIN. What is your general mode of operation with regard to showups? Perhaps you could tell us this.

Mr. GRAVES. Yes; I sure can. When we want to show a person up, we call the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the approximate age, size, and so forth.

And they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage.

Mr. BELIN. When you say the approximate age or size, do you specify what age or size you want?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the man that you are bringing down.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. So all he has to do is pick them out.

Mr. BELIN. So what you mean is the approximate age and size of the particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another particular age and size?

Mr. GRAVES. The fact is, if I was showing you, I would tell them to pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size. That is what it boils down to.

Mr. BELIN. Now, could you tell us what Mrs. or Miss Markham did or said when this particular showup took place? Were you standing right next to her?

Mr. GRAVES. About as close as I am to you, which would be approximately 4 or 5 feet.

Mr. BELIN. All right; the men walked in, I assume, is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Where was Mrs. Markham at that particular time?

Mr. GRAVES. She was standing in the center of the room, approximately in the first row of seats near the front.

Mr. BELIN. She was seated?

Mr. GRAVES. No; she was standing.

Mr. BELIN. She was standing?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did she look through an opening in the wall?

Mr. GRAVES. No; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. I am sure you have seen them?

Mr. BELIN. She can see through, as I understand, but the people in the showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. Is that correct?

Mr. GRAVES. That's correct.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you remember what she said or did after the men in the showup came in?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, she began to cry when he came in. He was next to the last man that come in in that order. No. 4, 3, 2, 1, and so forth that came in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean No. 4 came first, then No. 3 and then No. 2 and then No. 1?

Mr. GRAVES. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When did she start crying?

Mr. GRAVES. When he walked in, Oswald walked in.

Mr. BELIN. You mean when the No. 2 man walked in?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were they still walking at the time she started crying?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes. As soon as she saw him; yes. He would have to walk as far as from here to that stand, approximately.

Mr. BELIN. That would be about 6 or 8 feet?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes, sir; roughly.

Mr. BELIN. All right. What did she do or say?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, of course she said that was the man that she saw, Oswald. I mean at this particular time.

Mr. BELIN. Did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their profiles?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is the normal procedure that we do that. We turn him profile, right, left, and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything specific that she said at the time that she made the identification?

Mr. GRAVES. Nothing other than he is the one, No. 2 is the one.

Mr. BELIN. Was anything said by any of the men in the showup that would--did they speak any words or say anything at all?

Mr. GRAVES. If they did, I don't remember what was said. I am reasonably sure they asked some questions. That is the usual procedure. If they were, at this point I just don't remember what was said.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the dress of the people in the showup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; positively not.

Mr. BELIN. Does your police department ever take any photograph of an actual showup, I mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing or what they looked like?

Mr. GRAVES. That was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has been done, however, in the past.

But for various reasons, as I say, it is not the customary thing, because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the picture, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you have any recollection of in connection with this showup of Mrs. Markham or Miss Markham's identification?

Mrs. GRAVES. I don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about when this took place, this actual showup?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, let's see if I have it written down here. We put Lee Oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on November 22, 1963, at 4:30 p.m., and had Helen Markham view this lineup. She was positive on the identification of Oswald, and he was the No. 2 man in the four-man lineup.

Mr. BELIN. You were reading from your notes that you made of your actions on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Well, I don't remember anything else except this affidavit of Mrs. Mary E. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. That was on November 23, was it not?

Mr. GRAVES. November 23.

Mr. BELIN. I am still on November 22.

Mr. GRAVES. Have you had any of the reports that we have made?

Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir. I have read them all, but I have to get this down for the record.

Mr. GRAVES. You want me to read this verbatim?

Mr. BELIN. No, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the written record that you submitted to your department.

I am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. If you can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in your written report.

Sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you remember something that you might not have put down at the time.

Mr. GRAVES. Offhand, I don't remember anything.

Mr. BELIN. Well, according to your written report, you took Helen Markham back to her address, to let her out?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in talking with Helen Markham what she said as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. GRAVES. I believe she was going to catch a bus. I would have to see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but I think she was either going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her being at that location.

Mr. BELIN. Now you also later interviewed on that day several other people in connection with the Tippit murder, did you not?

Mr. GRAVES. I talked to some; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember who these were?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be Ted Callaway, Sam Guinyard, and Domingo Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. Did any of those men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. They did come down later, but I didn't have anything to do with the lineup.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I did not.

Mr. BELIN. Did all the men come down to a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. I think they did. I was told that they did, and I have not seen anything authentic about it.

Mr. BELIN. Now, your report says two of the three men came down to the city hall and gave affidavits on views of Oswald in the lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. That would be lineup.

Mr. BELIN. From my interpretation here from what we have, Ted Callaway and Sam Guinyard gave affidavits, but Domingo Benavides did not. Is there any particular reason that you know of why Benavides did not come down to give an affidavit or view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I wouldn't have any idea.

Mr. BELIN. Well----

Mr. GRAVES. Because after this little episode with them, I never saw them or had any occasion to talk to them any further.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation particularly with Domingo Benavides?

Mr. GRAVES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, I am going to try and refresh your recollection to see if I can help you a little bit.

I believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the Tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over Tippit's radio that Tippit had been shot. Does this strike a chord in your memory?

Mr. GRAVES. Not to me. He didn't tell me that. Leavelle talked to him to one side.

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You weren't the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. He didn't tell me that.

Mr. BELIN. But Officer Leavelle would be the one he talked to?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else on November 22?

Mr. GRAVES. I don't remember anything else of any consequence. I had so many phone calls.

Mr. BELIN. You had a few phone calls to the police station that day?

Mr. GRAVES. Just a few, yes.

Mr. BELIN. What about on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. That is the day I took the affidavit of Mrs. Bledsoe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever bring Mrs. Bledsoe down to view the lineup at all, or not?

Mr. GRAVES. I didn't; no.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any particular reason why you elected not to take her down, if this was your election? I don't know if it was.

Mr. GRAVES. What?

Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down to view a lineup?

Mr. GRAVES. Not that I can think of.

Mr. BELIN. Now she claimed that she had seen Lee Harvey Oswald on a bus shortly after the assassination?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to a lineup and she refused to come down?

Mr. GRAVES. No; I didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. I asked her to come down and give an affidavit.

Mr. BELIN. Was she actually at the police department?

Mr. GRAVES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. Whose responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people? Is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of the investigation, or what?

Mr. GRAVES. In a case like this, it would have to be the person in charge of the entire investigation.

Mr. BELIN. Who would that have been? Insofar as Bledsoe?

Mr. GRAVES. Insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you can remember on November 23?

Mr. GRAVES. Let me refresh my memory here, if I can. I don't know. I don't remember anything else on the 23d that was outstanding.