Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15)
Part 34
Mr. ABLES. Told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out there.
Mr. BALL. To where?
Mr. ABLES. Well, they was all standing in the room, and I just joined in with them.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. ABLES. Went into the showup room.
Mr. BALL. Showup room?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How were you dressed when you went in the showup room?
Mr. ABLES. I was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here [indicating].
Mr. BALL. You have a gray-knit sweater on?
Mr. ABLES. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And dark trousers?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Have a tie on?
Mr. ABLES. No.
Mr. BALL. Then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is that right?
Mr. ABLES. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Were you given any instructions when you went into the showup room?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir; none whatever.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever been in a showup before?
Mr. ABLES. No.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard of officers or employees of the Police Department being used in a showup before?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir; I have. I hadn't until I went to work for the police department.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever afterwards?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Tell me, it is your conclusion I know, but tell me briefly what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using jail employees or officers in showups? You can generalize. I am not holding you down as to where you learned it. Tell me what you learned about it?
Mr. ABLES. Well, only times that I have heard that--I have never seen a police officer or employee used in a showup but only times I have heard of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need somebody to do that. Well, to more or less look like they belong in a showup or something.
Mr. BALL. Somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked certain questions?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were not? When you went in there where did you stand in the line?
Mr. ABLES. I was No. 4.
Mr. BALL. That would be facing the audience?
Mr. ABLES. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were aware then that you were No. 4 in this?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the audience?
Mr. ABLES. Be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Left facing the audience, is that right?
Mr. ABLES. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Your left?
Mr. ABLES. My left.
Mr. BALL. Your left, facing the audience. The detective there, did he ask you any questions?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?
Mr. ABLES. As I recall, he asked me where I was from and what my occupation was and where I went to high school.
Mr. BALL. And where what?
Mr. ABLES. Where I went to high school.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask your name?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. What did you answer?
Mr. ABLES. When he asked where I was from I told him Dallas. I don't recall what I told him when he asked my occupation.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a jail clerk?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Gave him a fictitious occupation?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When he asked you where you went to high school, where did you tell him?
Mr. ABLES. I believe I told him Dallas. I'm not quite sure on that.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the detective that asked you the questions?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Could you hear anything from the audience?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything?
Mr. ABLES. Only time he said anything was when the detective asked him questions.
Mr. BALL. Did he answer the questions?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't you?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. About what time of day?
Mr. ABLES. About 6:30.
Mr. BALL. And in that showup, how were you dressed?
Mr. ABLES. Same way.
Mr. BALL. Who asked you to go to that showup?
Mr. ABLES. The detective in charge of the showup wanted the same members back in there.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember who asked you the questions?
Mr. ABLES. I don't remember his name. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where were you in that showup? What number?
Mr. ABLES. Same position, No. 4.
Mr. BALL. Who was in that showup?
Mr ABLES. It was Perry, Oswald, Clark, and myself.
Mr. BALL. Same ones as in the first showup up there?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Ask you questions?
Mr. ABLES. I don't recall on that, on the second showup. I know he did on the first showup.
Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he did or not ask you questions?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir; not on the second showup.
Mr. BALL. If he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they were?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir; or what I said.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you take part in another showup?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr BALL. When was that?
Mr. ABLES. That was later on that evening. I don't recall what time.
Mr. BALL. Think it would be around 7:55, or 8 o'clock?
Mr. ABLES. Could have been; I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. And who was in that showup with you?
Mr. ABLES. Myself, Oswald, and two prisoners.
Mr. BALL. Four, again, were there?
Mr. ABLES. I believe so.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the prisoners?
Mr ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. I have the names here. Richard Walter Borchgardt. Do you know whether he was there?
Mr ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or Ellis Brazel?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You don't know him?
Mr. ABLES. No.
Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in this showup?
Mr. ABLES. The same detective that was in charge of the showup said that he wanted me back in there.
Mr. BALL. Had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail during the time?
Mr. ABLES. Well; I performed my duties in the jail office.
Mr. BALL. In between the showups?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well----
Mr. ABLES. The jail office adjoins the showup room.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr. ABLES. 2:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m.
Mr. BALL. How were you dressed on the third showup?
Mr. ABLES. Same way.
Mr. BALL. As you had been on the first and second?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were questions asked of you again?
Mr. ABLES. I don't believe it was asked on the third showup. I am quite sure there was no questions asked.
Mr. BALL. Where were you on the third showup? What number?
Mr. ABLES. I was in my same position, No. 4.
Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald?
Mr. ABLES. He was in his position No. 2.
Mr. BALL. You were at no time handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me your height?
Mr. ABLES. About 5'9".
Mr. BALL. What is your weight?
Mr. ABLES. Around 165 or something.
Mr. BALL. And your hair?
Mr. ABLES. Dark.
Mr. BALL. Eyes?
Mr. ABLES. Brown.
Mr. BALL. Complexion?
Mr. ABLES. Ruddy.
Mr. BALL. I think that is all. You can be excused, too.
Mr. ABLES. All right.
TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN
The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please.
Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in this matter? You were asked to come here?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you not?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify.
Are you willing to testify to whatever you know?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name?
Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear.
Mr. BALL. Dallas?
Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help.
Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born?
Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?
Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. In Dallas?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?
Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade.
Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?
Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray.
Mr. BALL. Red?
Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2-1/2 years.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service.
Mr. BALL. Direct to where?
Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service.
Mr. BALL. Delivery Service?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville.
Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that.
Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary.
Mr. BALL. You went to Huntsville Prison?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. For what charge?
Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics.
Mr. BALL. How long were you there?
Mr. LUJAN. Three years.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. I got out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale Groceries.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.
Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there?
Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps?
Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.
Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was the charge?
Mr. LUJAN. Investigation.
Mr. BALL. Of what?
Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics.
Mr. BALL. Of narcotics?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested?
Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that.
Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination.
Mr. BALL. Before the assassination?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail?
Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday.
Mr. BALL. Then did they release you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything?
Mr. LUJAN. No.
Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take part in a showup?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What time of day was it?
Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the afternoon.
Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon?
Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Or what?
Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday.
Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday?
Mr. LUJAN. No; just one showup and Saturday----
Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that?
Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand up and he looked at me and said, "Come out."
So, I came out, and he went and got three more.
Mr. BALL. Got three more?
Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows.
Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know them?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did they look like?
Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker.
Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight?
Mr. LUJAN. Weigh about 170.
Mr. BALL. What is your height?
Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8".
Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark?
Mr. LUJAN. Black.
Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes?
Mr. LUJAN. Brown.
Mr. BALL. And brown, and your complexion?
Mr. LUJAN. Olive.
Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican.
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you?
Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about----
Mr. BALL. Same coloring?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup?
Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him.
Mr. BALL. Right next to him?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed to him?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were standing in the lineup?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were what would be----
Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him.
Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right?
Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed----
Mr. BALL. To the right?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he?
Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something.
Mr. BALL. How were you dressed?
Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt.
Mr. BALL. What color shirt?
Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket.
Mr. BALL. Brown jacket?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Any tie on?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask your name?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co.
Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number.
Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address?
Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions?
Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all.
Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald?
Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud?
Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something.
Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left about a minute.
Mr. BALL. Then you left?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you in there and he did ask you questions?
Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and that's all.
Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they?
Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions.
Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others their name and address?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir.
Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave.
Mr. LUJAN. All right.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me.
Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working?
Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay.
TESTIMONY OF C. W. BROWN
The testimony of C. W. Brown was taken at 3:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Let's get you sworn in here. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. BROWN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you state your name for the record, please.
Mr. BROWN. C. W. Brown.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Brown?
Mr. BROWN. I live in DeSoto, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Is that a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. BROWN. Police officer.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been a police officer?
Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.
Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?
Mr. BROWN. Dallas, and DeSoto is my home.
Mr. BELIN. You go to school there?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?
Mr. BROWN. Through high school.
Mr. BELIN. Did you graduate from the high school in DeSoto?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. I went into the Navy.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?
Mr. BROWN. Spent 3 years in the Navy during World War II.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you, by the way?
Mr. BROWN. Thirty-eight.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. BROWN. No; divorced.
Mr. BELIN. You were in the Navy for 3 years?
Mr. BROWN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing when you got out of the Navy?
Mr. BROWN. When I got out of the Navy I was employed by the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy, by the way?
Mr. BROWN. During the war I was a coxswain, as a third class petty officer, in the amphibious branch of the Navy.
Then after the war the peace was signed and I was a radioman until my discharge in 1944.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do after the war?
Mr. BROWN. I started to work for the Southwestern Bell Telephone Co.
Mr. BELIN. As what?
Mr. BROWN. As an installer.
Mr. BELIN. Of telephones?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I was employed with those people 5 years before I went to work for the city of Dallas.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything--well, what did you do after that? Just go to work for the city of Dallas Police Department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have been with those people ever since.
Mr. BELIN. How long now?
Mr. BROWN. Thirteen years.
Mr. BELIN. What is your position now?
Mr. BROWN. I am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing around noon or so?
Mr. BROWN. I was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with Detective J. R. Leavelle.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President?
Mr. BROWN. It came on our police intercom radio that we have in the office.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Lieutenant Wells was in the office and we asked him if that was correct, and he said, "Yes, they are on their way to Parkland now."
So he said, "Hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there and help them."
So we immediately put this subject in jail.
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. BROWN. And went to the location of the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. My partner went to the front of the building. I went to the back of the building, and I proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth floor where I met Captain Fritz and several other officers on the sixth floor.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. BROWN. I talked to Captain Fritz and I asked him what he wanted me to do. He said for me and Detective B. L. Senkel to gather up--there was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they were at the time of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead.
Mr. BROWN. Where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident.
Mr. BELIN. Did you go do that then?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You left the sixth floor right then?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; Detective Senkel and I took these employees to the city hall, and in this group of employees I was talking to a Mr. Shelley, and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in Lee Harvey Oswald.
And there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of them, and they opened the door to where I was interviewing; Mr. Shelley looked up and he said, "Well, that is Oswald. He works for us. He is one of my boys."
Mr. BELIN. What did you do or say?
Mr. BROWN. We got up and got out of the room so they could put Oswald in there in the room we were using.
We just had two small interview rooms there, and I let them put him in there.
Then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. I answered the phone. It was Captain Fritz. He was still at the scene on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, and I told him that the officers had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and told him about Mr. Shelley telling me that this boy that was identified was Lee Harvey Oswald, was also an employee there.
He said, "I will be right up in a few minutes."
Mr. BELIN. Where was Captain Fritz at this time?
Mr. BROWN. He was still at the scene of the shooting, at the Texas School Book Depository. He called from there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. I told him it looked like we might have the boy that was responsible for that. He said, "Okay, I will be up in a few minutes."
Mr. BELIN. What did you mean by "that," for the assassination?
Mr. BROWN. For the President's assassination. That was my own personal opinion at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. BROWN. Then after the confusion died down a little bit, I got Mr. Shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, saw, or heard at the time of the assassination.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did Shelley say anything more about Oswald at the time you talked to him?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, that he had been training him--see, I had taken the affidavit from him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring Oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his own personal supervisor. I immediately got an affidavit from him in conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and what he was doing, and what type work he did there.
Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate where Oswald was, at the time of the shooting?
Mr. BROWN. No; he did not know where Oswald was at the time of the shooting.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen Oswald subsequent to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; he saw him that morning. He gave him some stuff to do.
Mr. BELIN. I mean after the time of the shooting of the President?
Mr. BROWN. No; he did not see him.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say where he, Shelley, was?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I have it in his affidavit. I don't remember where he said he was.
Mr. BELIN. But you took an affidavit from him?
Mr. BROWN. Yes; I did. I don't have that report with me.
Mr. BELIN. We have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the deposition of Mr. Shelley and we will get it then.
Mr. BROWN. All right.
Mr. BELIN. Now, also, I believe your partner, Mr. Senkel took an affidavit of Bonnie Ray Williams, is that correct, at that same time?
Mr. BROWN. That's right; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. He was a Negro employee?
Mr. BROWN. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you take his affidavit?
Mr. BROWN. He was there employed. He was getting the affidavit from every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did on that day of November 22, that you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form?
I will ask you this. Detective Brown, you made a memorandum with regard to your actions on November 22 and November 23, did you not?
Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that you participated in?