Warren Commission (07 of 26): Hearings Vol. VII (of 15)
Part 33
Mr. ROSE. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage.
Mr. BALL. What did you find there?
Mr. ROSE. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Did you find some pictures?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right with those negatives I found a developed picture--I don't know what you call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and he found the other picture--of Oswald holding the rifle.
Mr. BALL. What color were the sea bags?
Mr. ROSE. I believe they were kind of an off white--I would call them--more of a greyish-white.
Mr. BALL. What about the suitcases?
Mr. ROSE. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of them was real worn.
Mr. BALL. But you brought that property back here into town, did you?
Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.
Mr. BALL. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later that day?
Mr. ROSE. On Saturday evening--that Saturday evening.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around 9 or 10 o'clock, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Who was present?
Mr. ROSE. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself--I don't remember--there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but I don't remember their names.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what was said?
Mr. ROSE. Do I remember what was said?
Mr. BALL. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. ROSE. In Captain Fritz' office--yes. Well, the occasion was--I got back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain said, "Well, is that your face on the picture?"
And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I remember that part of it distinctly.
I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in Russia.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. ROSE. Well, he talked about how life was better for the colored people in Russia than it was in the United States. I don't remember--he just rambled on--he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of Tippit.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the President?
Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing Tippit?
Mr. ROSE. No; I don't believe so. Some mention might have been made of the assassination but I don't believe it was as an accusation to him. That was the only interrogation I sat in on.
Mr. BALL. That was the only one you sat in on?
Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else that was said in that interrogation?
Mr. ROSE. No, sir; that's about all I can remember. There was more said, but I don't remember what it was.
Mr. BALL. Did you take part in any of the search of the premises?
Mr. ROSE. Let's, let's see--that was Saturday, and then Sunday, immediately after Oswald was shot, I reported for duty and I was supposed to be off and I reported on as soon as as he was shot and Captain Fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to Jack Ruby's apartment and search it and I did.
Mr. BALL. I believe those are all the questions I have to ask you, Mr. Rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you can waive your signature--just as you wish. What do you prefer?
Mr. ROSE. Well, I don't know--will it be later?
Mr. BALL. A couple of weeks.
Mr. ROSE. Well, if she will just call me, I will drop by anytime.
Mr. BALL. Okay, that will be fine. We will do this. Thanks very much.
Mr. ROSE. Let's see, there was something else I was going to tell you now, I wanted to mention--we did run Wesley Frazier on the polygraph, did you know that?
Mr. BALL. I know you did--we know about that.
Mr. ROSE. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Thanks.
TESTIMONY OF W. E. PERRY
The testimony of W. E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. State your name, please.
Mr. PERRY. W. E. Perry.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation? What is your address?
Mr. PERRY. 6821 Overlook.
Mr. BALL. And your occupation?
Mr. PERRY. Police officer.
Mr. BALL. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born and where you were raised?
Mr. PERRY. I was born and raised right here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?
Mr. PERRY. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you got out of school?
Mr. PERRY. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on to the police department. Been there about 11 years.
Mr. BALL. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in November of 1963?
Mr. PERRY. I was with the vice and special services bureau.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the vice bureau----
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Squadroom?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you take part in a showup?
Mr. PERRY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. PERRY. Approximately 4:35 or----
Mr. BALL. First one?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you take part in another showup?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What time?
Mr. PERRY. 6:30.
Mr. BALL. Take part in any other showups?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?
Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Back on the record. Had you ever heard of officers taking part in showups before in your department?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. But, you hadn't yourself?
Mr. PERRY. I hadn't myself; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?
Mr. PERRY. Physically, down there?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. PERRY. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the vice squad?
Mr. PERRY. I don't think we do; huh-uh, no. Never heard of it done.
Mr. BALL. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup?
Mr. PERRY. Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did he talk to you?
Mr. PERRY. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.
Mr. BALL. And they relayed the order to you?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. PERRY. We went on up to--Clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who else was there?
Mr. PERRY. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was----
Mr. BALL. Anything said there?
Mr. PERRY. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. Any conversation with Oswald?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?
Mr. PERRY. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.
Mr. BALL. What color?
Mr. PERRY. I believe it was a brown sports coat.
Mr. BALL. Then you went down to the showup?
Mr. PERRY. Went down to the showup.
Mr. BALL. Were you handcuffed?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. To whom?
Mr. PERRY. To Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Which arm, or hand?
Mr. PERRY. My left hand to his right hand.
Mr. BALL. What place did you have in the showup?
Mr. PERRY. I was No. 1.
Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald?
Mr. PERRY. Oswald was No. 2, next to me.
Mr. BALL. Who was handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. PERRY. Clark was handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. That was No. 3. Who was 4?
Mr. PERRY. Ables.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever know him before?
Mr. PERRY. I had seen--had seen him, but I didn't know him personally.
Mr. BALL. He is a clerk in the jail?
Mr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.
Mr. BALL. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?
Mr. PERRY. Well, occupation.
Mr. BALL. What else?
Mr. PERRY. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.
Mr. BALL. And what answer did you give him?
Mr. PERRY. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but they weren't----
Mr. BALL. You didn't give him your true name?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or true address?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or the car you drove?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Ask you what your occupation was?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.
Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you were a police officer?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Gave some----
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You took part in the second showup, didn't you?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. At 6:30, and who called you for that?
Mr. PERRY. We were down in the office and they simply called us and said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we went back up there and----
Mr. BALL. How were you dressed that time?
Mr. PERRY. Same way.
Mr. BALL. Same coat?
Mr. PERRY. Same coat.
Mr. BALL. No tie?
Mr. PERRY. No tie.
Mr. BALL. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address?
Mr. PERRY. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the audience?
Mr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?
Mr. PERRY. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.
Mr. BALL. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?
Mr. PERRY. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?
Mr. PERRY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?
Mr. PERRY. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?
Mr. PERRY. I don't recall. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you remember Sims did the second one?
Mr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right. Will you state your height, please?
Mr. PERRY. About 5'11".
Mr. BALL. What is your weight?
Mr. PERRY. About 150.
Mr. BALL. And your hair?
Mr. PERRY. Brown.
Mr. BALL. And your eyes?
Mr. PERRY. Blue.
Mr. BALL. Complexion?
Mr. PERRY. I guess medium, fair, I guess.
Mr. BALL. Fair. That's all.
TESTIMONY OF RICHARD L. CLARK
The testimony of Richard L. Clark was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CLARK. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. CLARK. Richard L. Clark.
Mr. BALL. What is your address, please, your home address?
Mr. CLARK. 4928 Live Oak.
Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?
Mr. CLARK. Detective for the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. CLARK. Eleven years.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?
Mr. CLARK. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Go through school here?
Mr. CLARK. Went to school in Irving.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. CLARK. After I went to school?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. CLARK. I went to work.
Mr. BALL. Where? Let me explain to you that as the Commission isn't going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about you and where you were born and your early education, what you have done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the testimony.
Mr. CLARK. Worked for Merchants Retail Credit Association before the police department.
Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police department?
Mr. CLARK. Vice squad detective.
Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, you took part in some showup of the police department, did you?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. CLARK. Two.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time these showups were?
Mr. CLARK. They were in the late afternoon but I don't remember the exact time.
Mr. BALL. Well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. That was in the afternoon of the 22d of November 1963, wasn't it?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who asked you to take part in that showup?
Mr. CLARK. Captain Fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with Oswald.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?
Mr. CLARK. Went up to the third floor, to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. Who went with you?
Mr. CLARK. My partner.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. CLARK. W. E. Perry.
Mr. BALL. Who was in Captain Fritz' office when you got there?
Mr. CLARK. Everybody that was in there.
Mr. BALL. Were there a good many people in there?
Mr. CLARK. Bunch of people in there.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald in there?
Mr. CLARK. Oswald was there.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the other people?
Mr. CLARK. Homicide detectives, Texas Rangers, FBI. Everybody.
Mr. BALL. What was said at that time?
Mr. CLARK. They told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us to make a showup with them.
Mr. BALL. Did you wait there very long?
Mr. CLARK. I'd say we waited in the office maybe 15 minutes or less.
Mr. BALL. Anything said while you were there?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. CLARK. We took off our coats, ties. I put on a little--I believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office.
Mr. BALL. Where did you get the vest?
Mr. CLARK. At homicide.
Mr. BALL. You didn't own a----
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; just hanging loose in there.
Mr. BALL. Did you have a white shirt on?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Cuff links, or----
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I believe a short-sleeve shirt.
Mr. BALL. Short-sleeve shirt?
Mr. CLARK. Uh-huh.
Mr. BALL. Took off your tie?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Unbuttoned your top button on your shirt?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of pants did you have on?
Mr. CLARK. Brown.
Mr. BALL. With belt?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about your partner, what did he do?
Mr. CLARK. He took of his tie and his coat, and I believe they had a sports coat hanging there that he put on.
Mr. BALL. And you went down in the showup room?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How many men were in the showup with you?
Mr. CLARK. Total?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. CLARK. Well, let's see. Myself, my partner, Oswald, and another man out of the jail office.
Mr. BALL. What was his name? Do you know? Was that Ables?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was your position in the showup?
Mr. CLARK. My right hand was handcuffed to Oswald's left hand.
Mr. BALL. Your right----
Mr. CLARK. To his left.
Mr. BALL. To his left. Then who was next to Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. And my partner, W. E. Perry, was next to Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he was. Handcuffed his left hand to Oswald's right hand.
Mr. BALL. What about Mr. Ables?
Mr. CLARK. Mr. Ables was standing to the left.
Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. Okay. We'll put that on. Now, did you have numbers in the showup as such? Have a number above each man?
Mr. CLARK. Yes; I believe we do.
Mr. BALL. Now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were you numbered from left to right?
Mr. CLARK. Numbered from left to right.
Mr. BALL. As you faced the audience?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the audience?
Mr. CLARK. The audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite.
Mr. BALL. Opposite, that's right. Now, as you faced the audience, who was the first one to the left?
Mr. CLARK. First one to my left?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. CLARK. Be Ables.
Mr. BALL. The No. 1 was Ables?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; No. 1 was Perry.
Mr. BALL. Who was No. 2?
Mr. CLARK. Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Who was No. 3?
Mr. CLARK. Myself.
Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?
Mr. CLARK. Ables.
Mr. BALL. And he stood to your right and faced the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he stood to my left as I was facing the audience. The audience was looking at him, it would be----
Mr. BALL. He stood on your left?
Mr. CLARK. That's right.
Mr. BALL. I see. Ables would be the No. 4 man?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you the No. 3 man?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2, your partner 1?
Mr. CLARK. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions?
Mr. CLARK. Did the detective ask us?
Mr. BALL. Yes, in the showup?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; he didn't ask any questions.
Mr. BALL. Now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? Ask your name and address and occupation?
Mr. BALL. Oh, in the showup.
Mr. BALL. In the showup.
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?
Mr. CLARK. He asked me my name.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. CLARK. I don't remember what I told him.
Mr. BALL. Did you give him your real name?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Fictitious name?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Ask you your occupation?
Mr. CLARK. Asked my occupation.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. CLARK. I don't recall. All of them are fictitious.
Mr. BALL. Fictitious?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said in the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I couldn't hear anything that was said.
Mr. BALL. Lights were on you?
Mr. CLARK. Lights were on us; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you couldn't see in the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and tell me what time that first showup was?
Mr. CLARK. 4:35 p.m.
Mr. BALL. P.m.? You were in the second showup also, weren't you?
Mr. CLARK. Second showup would be 6:30 p.m.
Mr. BALL. Now, those were the only two showups in which you took part?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, at the 6:30 showup, how did you happen to take part in that?
Mr. CLARK. I believe some detective, I don't recall who, came up from homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they wanted us again.
Mr. BALL. Did you still stick around?
Mr. CLARK. We went back to our office.
Mr. BALL. To your office? Did you get a call?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; they called us back down there.
Mr. BALL. Who called you?
Mr. CLARK. I don't recall who called us.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got the call?
Mr. CLARK. Back up to the third floor, homicide office up there.
Mr. BALL. Fritz' office?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What had you done with the little red vest that you had on in the first showup?
Mr. CLARK. I had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the homicide, and I took it off and left it there.
Mr. BALL. What did you do for the second showup? How did you dress?
Mr. CLARK. The same red vest.
Mr. BALL. What about your tie?
Mr. CLARK. No tie.
Mr. BALL. What about the coat?
Mr. CLARK. No coat.
Mr. BALL. Now, on the second showup, where were you standing?
Mr. CLARK. Same position.
Mr. BALL. Same position?
Mr. CLARK. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Facing the audience, who was No. 1?
Mr. CLARK. Facing the audience, Perry would have been No. 1. Oswald----
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. CLARK. Perry.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was 2?
Mr. CLARK. Oswald, 2; myself, 3; Ables, 4.
Mr. BALL. And did the detective ask you questions?
Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir; he asked me questions again.
Mr. BALL. What did he ask you?
Mr. CLARK. Name, address, occupation.
Mr. BALL. And do you remember what you said?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir; they were all fictitious answers.
Mr. BALL. And again, could you hear anything said in the audience?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is your height?
Mr. CLARK. About 5'11".
Mr. BALL. What is your weight?
Mr. CLARK. About 177.
Mr. BALL. And your hair?
Mr. CLARK. Blond.
Mr. BALL. And your eyes?
Mr. CLARK. Blue.
Mr. BALL. Your complexion is fair?
Mr. CLARK. Fair.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?
Mr. CLARK. No.
Mr. BALL. Was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in the police department showup?
Mr. CLARK. No; it wasn't unusual.
Mr. BALL. You ever helped them before?
Mr. CLARK. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. I think that is all.
Will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his deposition.
TESTIMONY OF DON R. ABLES
The testimony of Don R. Ables was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Would you stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. ABLES. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.
Mr. ABLES. Don R. Ables.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Ables?
Mr. ABLES. 1520 Kingsley, in Garland.
Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?
Mr. ABLES. Jail clerk, Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been a jail clerk in the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. ABLES. About 7 months.
Mr. BALL. And you are a member of the police department?
Mr. ABLES. I am a civilian employee.
Mr. BALL. Civilian employee? You are not----
Mr. ABLES. An actual member of the----
Mr. BALL. An actual member of the department?
Mr. ABLES. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where were you born and raised?
Mr. ABLES. I was born and raised in Hico, Tex.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell that? You probably know it. I don't.
Mr. ABLES. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o.
Mr. BALL. [Spelling.] H-i-c-o. Did you go to school there?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How far through school?
Mr. ABLES. Well, through 10-1/2 grades.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. ABLES. Joined the Navy.
Mr. BALL. How long were you in the Navy?
Mr. ABLES. Seven and a half years.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got out of the Navy?
Mr. ABLES. Came straight to Dallas and went to work for the police department.
Mr. BALL. That was 7 months ago?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were on duty on November 22, 1963, were you?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the afternoon? Did you take part in a showup?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. With Oswald?
Mr. ABLES. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to take part in the showup? Tell me who asked you to, or ordered you to?
Mr. ABLES. Well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. ABLES. Sergeant Duncan.
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?