Part 32

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't know the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to Captain Fritz, and he already had the information.

Mr. BELIN. Anything--any other information come in on Saturday of any importance?

Mr. TURNER. Not that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning, November 24?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When did you come to the police station?

Mr. TURNER. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to work about 1 o'clock or so.

Mr. BELIN. Then you stayed down there on Sunday?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; until in the night.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with regard to the assassination?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man at Irving that sighted in a rifle out there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know who it was that called in?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man, Dial Ryder, that worked for him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk with either or both of them?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I have talked with both of them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener?

Mr. TURNER. I talked to Mr. Greener first.

Mr. BELIN. Did you later talk to Ryder or not?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder.

Mr. BELIN. What did Greener say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work for the man in the shop.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say, if anything?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he would check his files and records for names, and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't worked on it.

Mr. BELIN. What reason did he give you?

Mr. TURNER. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top.

Mr. BELIN. Were they ever talked to again about the thing?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About when was that?

Mr. TURNER. About November 28.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Greener.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could figure out, his--this work probably came in around November the 4th or November the 8th of 1963.

Mr. BELIN. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would call attention to it?

Mr. TURNER. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50."

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about this, about the man they did the work for?

Mr. TURNER. He stated that he could not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did Ryder say?

Mr. TURNER. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever show them the gun itself?

Mr. TURNER. I didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these men?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say who wrote the ticket?

Mr. TURNER. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket on--or try to pick up the work ticket?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and not let it get away from him.

Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this?

Mr. TURNER. Sir?

Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you remember?

Mr. TURNER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap," means, or did you discuss this with Mr. Greener?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say about it?

Mr. TURNER. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes. Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three screws in it.

Mr. BELIN. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he said that--do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it that was found in the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it.

Mr. BELIN. But this would indicate three screws on top?

Mr. TURNER. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole.

Mr. BELIN. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a screw?

Mr. TURNER. A hole.

Mr. BELIN. What about the bore sight? What does that mean?

Mr. TURNER. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that is to sight a rifle in.

Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three screws in their mount.

Mr. BELIN. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the School Book Depository Building had?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle?

Mr. TURNER. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber rifles, 6.5.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it might have been picked up.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether or not he did this?

Mr. TURNER. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount or nature or something.

Mr. BELIN. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now?

Mr. TURNER. None that I can recall.

Mr. BELIN. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification one way or the other, if you remember?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't identify him.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written up with a pencil. He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure out what day the rifle might have been left there.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever do this at all, or not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. BELIN. You don't have another record of your going back and talking to him, do you?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know if the FBI did?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of the rifle?

Mr. TURNER. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the paper.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to determine that he had or had not worked on it?

Mr. TURNER. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not think that he was working on it.

Mr. BELIN. Why not?

Mr. TURNER. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the man another one, and would remember that.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said about this?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him.

Mr. BELIN. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the investigation you made that we haven't discussed here?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here.

One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any preference or not?

Mr. TURNER. What have they been doing?

Mr. BELIN. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way.

Mr. TURNER. I suppose it is all right to just let it go.

Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it?

Mr. TURNER. Well.

TESTIMONY OF GUY F. ROSE

The testimony of Guy F. Rose was taken at 3 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROSE. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, now, please?

Mr. ROSE. G. F. Rose, 714 Hall Road, Seagoville.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. ROSE. I am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. ROSE. Ten years.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. ROSE. I was born in Grannis, Ark.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to school?

Mr. ROSE. I finished high school in Grand Prairie High School and attended grade school at Shady Grove Independent School District between Irving and Grand Prairie.

Mr. BALL. And what have you done since then?

Mr. ROSE. Well, after I finished high school I went to work for a construction company as a timekeeper and worked until I was 21. Then I went on the police department.

Mr. BALL. You have been on the police department ever since you were 21 years old?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was what year?

Mr. ROSE. It was in 1954.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. ROSE. I went on duty shortly after the assassination. At the time of the assassination I was not on duty.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty?

Mr. ROSE. No; I came in just as soon as I heard of the shooting--I came on to work.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work?

Mr. ROSE. I reported to the homicide office. It's room 317 at the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you?

Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and he told me it was Hidell.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald?

Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house.

Mr. BALL. Now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his name was "Hidell"?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you saw the two cards?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw the cards?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you his first name?

Mr. ROSE. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last name of "Hidell".

Mr. BALL. And then you found two or three cards on him?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. Did you search him?

Mr. ROSE. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not.

Mr. BALL. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you sitting down?

Mr. ROSE. No; I was standing in the interrogation room.

Mr. BALL. Where was he--was he standing too?

Mr. ROSE. No; he was sitting in the chair.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him?

Mr. ROSE. I believe they were behind him--I don't remember for sure.

Mr. BALL. Who else was present at that time?

Mr. ROSE. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present.

Mr. BALL. The ones who brought him in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you know their names?

Mr. ROSE. I don't remember--I did see McDonald and I did talk to him, but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right there at the time or not.

Mr. BALL. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true name?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. ROSE. He said, "You find out."

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what his address was?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "You just find out."

Mr. BALL. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. ROSE. Later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know it at that time?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you go out to Irving--to the Irving Street address?

Mr. ROSE. In just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he instructed me to get two men and go to Irving to the Ruth Paine home and so I went immediately.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you "the Ruth Paine home," or did he tell you to go to a certain address in Irving?

Mr. ROSE. I believe he gave me the address.

Mr. BALL. What was the address?

Mr. ROSE. 2515 West Fifth in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How many men went out there?

Mr. ROSE. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall, and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E. W. Walthers, and J. L. Oxford, detectives for the county CID--we waited about 40 minutes and they came and met us.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. ROSE. No; we didn't.

Mr. BALL. How did you get in the house?

Mr. ROSE. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us--she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."

Mr. BALL. Did she say why she had been expecting you?

Mr. ROSE. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened, I knew there would be someone out."

Mr. BALL. You took part in the search, didn't you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What part did you take?

Mr. ROSE. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went into the bedroom of Marina Oswald--Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle."

I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said--first she said Marina said "No," and then in a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have."

So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is."

Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.

Mr. BALL. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; it did.

Mr. BALL. Was it tied at one end?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle. I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it.

Mr. BALL. You brought that in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I did.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. ROSE. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly--I didn't do too much.

Mr. BALL. Could I see the report there, please?

Mr. ROSE. Yes--I wrote that report shortly after the 24th--I believe it was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken.

Mr. BALL. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael Paine come in?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time, and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help."

Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us.

Mr. BALL. Did Marina Oswald tell you--point to the blanket and say something?

Mr. ROSE. She pointed to the blanket and said something in Russian and Ruth Paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for me--she said, "That's where her husband's rifle is."

Mr. BALL. About that time, while you were there, did a Mrs. Linnie Randle come over to you?

Mr. ROSE. She might have come up to the yard and I didn't talk with her--I saw her out in the yard--I didn't talk to her.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to her at all?

Mr. ROSE. At that time I didn't--I did later.

Mr. BALL. You brought Ruth Paine and Marina down to the police department, did you?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we took Ruth Paine and Marina and Marina's two children in our car and also the blanket--I carried it.

Mr. BALL. And the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and looking around for Wesley Frazier?

Mr. ROSE. Well, we came on back to the city hall and we took Ruth Paine and Michael Paine and Marina Oswald to the homicide office, but it was so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next door, and then someone came over and I believe it was the Detective Senkel, to take affidavits from them and I immediately started trying to locate Wesley Frazier.

We were told that he would be at Parkland Hospital, but we checked through Parkland and there was no Fraziers there and I started a check of the clinics and the doctors' offices in Irving, and I located through one of the nurses, I believe, or talked to someone on the phone there that Mr. Frazier was in the hospital there at the Irving Clinic, so I called Detective McCabe in Irving and told him that we wanted to talk with Wesley Frazier and that we understood that Wesley was the one that had brought Lee Oswald to work that morning.

Mr. BALL. You took a statement from Frazier that day?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; we got Frazier and brought him in and took a written affidavit off of him.

Mr. BALL. And you also talked to Linnie Randle that night?

Mr. ROSE. Yes; I brought her in, too.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Lee Oswald any more during that day except the time you mentioned?

Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at any time that anyone questioned him?

Mr. ROSE. Not that day. I was the next day, on Saturday--I was present when Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. At this time you had a search warrant?

Mr. ROSE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What did you search on this day?