Part 31

Mr. BELIN. If you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure when you come to the door? Just what do you do?

Mr. MOORE. If we do not have a search warrant?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. MOORE. Well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. If we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or things of that nature, we would most probably have one. If we did not have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house anyway. And if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of that is important in any way that bears on this investigation?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. Officer Moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister?

Mr. MOORE. Either way.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in Washington, or you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you have any preference or not?

Mr. MOORE. No.

Mr. BELIN. You want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it?

Mr. MOORE. What is the procedure?

Mr. BELIN. Well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of your testimony here.

Mr. MOORE. I believe I would rather read it. No reflection on the reporter.

Mr. BELIN. Well, she is too nice a reporter. If you would like to read it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting in touch with you. Do we have your address, or can she contact you at the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. MOORE. Yes; she can.

Mr. BELIN. You can come in and read it and she will send it to us.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We thank you very much for your splendid cooperation. Good-bye.

TESTIMONY OF F. M. TURNER

The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TURNER. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.

Mr. TURNER. F. M. Turner.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner?

Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five.

Mr. BELIN. Married?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?

Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas?

Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service.

Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school?

Mr. TURNER. Finished.

Mr. BELIN. You finished high school?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Went in the service.

Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy?

Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy?

Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard.

Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge?

Mr. TURNER. Right.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's helper up around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked there until I came to work for the police department.

Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. TURNER. I was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade?

Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What was your position?

Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3 minutes in front of the motorcade.

Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department.

Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police?

Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police.

Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?

Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose name I do not remember.

Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President?

Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the motorcade?

Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They were about ready to leave, and we had a running start.

Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio?

Mr. TURNER. Two.

Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on?

Mr. TURNER. Channel 2.

Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2?

Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and forth.

Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or also on channel 2?

Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1.

Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual motorcade, is that correct?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.

Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was going?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got to Main and Houston?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry.

Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of anything out of the ordinary?

Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately, at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity.

Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men to get over there and cover off the area around this building there until some investigators could get there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building. I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said cover off that area around the overpass, I believe.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car?

Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed?

Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car.

Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car.

Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car?

Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately?

Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly.

Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there?

Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar?

Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody?

Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it was, sitting there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they heard the shots came from?

Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did you talk to anyone?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly, and who else?

Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina.

Mr. BELIN. They all worked there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them?

Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a warehouse like.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from west of the building at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when the shots came?

Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in the warehouse.

Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him?

Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their building.

Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down the questioning?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes.

Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after that?

Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt, come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to witnesses.

Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?

Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names.

Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see you have something about an Arnold Rowland there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland.

Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did Rowland say, according to your notes?

Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the background of an open window two floors from the top.

Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top?

Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building.

Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building?

Mr. TURNER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?

Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white man, and that he heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you remember?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window in any other windows there?

Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert Edwards?

Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.

Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them?

Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.

Mr. BELIN. What else did they say?

Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an affidavit taken from them at the time, too.

Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under Fischer or under Edwards, or both?

Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time.

Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man?

Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them?

Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have.

Mr. BELIN. Which one?

Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is.

Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer?

Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is.

Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures?

Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't remember positive.

Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man?

Mr. TURNER. None other than that.

Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the taking of various affidavits there?

Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and affidavits was taken from them.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan?

Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan [spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to.

Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one.

Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was thinking of when you said Brennan.

Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an officer had been shot?

Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there.

Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in there?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case.

Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat being found on Industrial Street?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in the case, but it was placed in the property room.

Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere?

Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it had any bearing on the case or not.

Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated?

Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the case.

Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.

Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could do down there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there."

Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here a minute; 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there?

Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way.

Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H. M. Moore?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this Lee Oswald had a room in it.

Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant, it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I don't remember the date on the warrant.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it that didn't belong with the house, you know.

Mr. BELIN. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel?

Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three were there when we got there.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the homicide and robbery office of the city hall.

Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of an inventory that you made?

Mr. TURNER. I think all of this----

Mr. BELIN. Just a second----

Mr. TURNER. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is the typed-up list of the copies that I made.

Mr. BELIN. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are these the things that you picked up?

Mr. TURNER. That is the same that was picked up there.

Mr. BELIN. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other things?

Mr. TURNER. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. This is your original?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; that is a carbon.

Mr. BELIN. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon?

Mr. TURNER. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made by one of the secretaries in the--our office.

Mr. BELIN. Who dictated it?

Mr. TURNER. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote part.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as "Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in evidence.

Do you need this back?

Mr. TURNER. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had in my locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made a more detailed description of it down at the property room.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley residence?

Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not?

Mr. TURNER. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or three people there.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them before we did.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster?

Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; there was a holster found.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do after that?

Mr. TURNER. After we brought this stuff to the office?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. TURNER. Well, by that time the phones and everything else were going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to work with that morning.

Mr. BELIN. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How do you go about doing it?

Mr. TURNER. Well, I just take the--let them tell the story, and write it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them sign it in front of a notary.

Mr. BELIN. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, or not?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up?

Mr. TURNER. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the secretary, she might have filed it somewhere.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you did that day?

Mr. TURNER. That is the only affidavit I can remember taking in this thing.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned?

Mr. TURNER. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about it.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at 1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell with you?

Mr. TURNER. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there was any of those there or not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't recall that.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember whether there was or was not?

Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23?

Mr. TURNER. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know of, except I came to work, like I said.

They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots of us busy answering the phone.

Mr. BELIN. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation sessions with Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I never was.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald?

Mr. TURNER. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in just as they were winding up on him one night.

Mr. BELIN. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from?