Part 3

Mr. BALL. All right, now what happened after that?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I, like--I told him--asked him to check everything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not--I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know--well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, and he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying--well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

Mr. BALL. You mean he guarded the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you know, and that--then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there and----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre that this officer used the phone?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was after?

Mrs. POSTAL. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They were running.

Mr. BALL. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes. Definitely.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see anything that happened inside?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them bring a man out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many men had hold of him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I--like I said, the public was getting there at that time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse (sic) language which--inside. I'd say four or five.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.

Mr. BALL. They were?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And an officer had hold of him from the side?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; this way.

Mr. BALL. With his arm underneath his chin?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises or cuts on his face?

Mrs. POSTAL. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see any?

Mrs. POSTAL. No; huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. Was he saying anything?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.

Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear him say anything?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they had him.

Mr. BALL. What happened then?

Mrs. POSTAL. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a live mob scene, that----

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mrs. POSTAL. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, "Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming profuse language and--"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to Oswald--when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I didn't know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers was--at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.

Mr. BALL. They drove away with him, did they?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go down to the police station?

Mrs. POSTAL. Police station?

Mr. BALL. Yes; later the city hall or police office?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the Thursday following.

Mr. BALL. You didn't go down there that day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down there the next day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on the 4th of December. Would that be about right?

Mrs. POSTAL. Was that on Thursday?

Mr. BALL. Yes; I think.

Mrs. POSTAL. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.

Mr. BALL. That was after Oswald was dead?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; because I know I didn't go down until the following week.

Mr. BALL. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on--out of the theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, "I'm sure we have got our man----"?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were bringing Oswald out.

Mr. BALL. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do you have any idea?

Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.

Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.

Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the----

Mrs. POSTAL. Third.

Mr. BALL. Third?

Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.

Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.

Mr. BALL. And he could go in?

Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in.

Mr. BALL. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Outside his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't tucked into his pants?

Mrs. POSTAL. Huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.

Mr. BALL. And his shirt was out?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. You say----

Mrs. POSTAL. It was hanging out.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I see no reason why not.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Fine.

Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS

The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. State your name for the record, please.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Warren H. Burroughs.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?

Mr. BURROUGHS. 407 Montreal.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.

Mr. BALL. You quit in the ninth grade?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.

Mr. BALL. You are now?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; I am now.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Twenty-two.

Mr. BALL. What have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work have you been doing?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as an apprentice, he is an electrician.

Mr. BALL. Were you ever in the Army?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir--they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass--I passed the physical part, but the mental part--I didn't make enough points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying me different.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, were you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of job did you have?

Mr. BURROUGHS. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.

Mr. BALL. On weekends you usher?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. During the week?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I am behind the concession.

Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--I take tickets every day.

Mr. BALL. You do?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And, run the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. BALL. We will get to that in a minute--I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.

Mr. BALL. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I went to work at 12.

Mr. BALL. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That day at 12 o'clock--yes.

Mr. BALL. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was--I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise--I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir--first, I think he was up there.

Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.

Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door--yes. Yes, it goes straight--you come through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. BALL. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No--I got information that a man--the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. BALL. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They came on--somehow they came in--one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

Mr. BALL. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back there?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I saw one of them.

Mr. BALL. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in the front?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They are at the back--they have one main one going out to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any police officer?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them--that was the main thing.

Mr. BALL. Where were you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I was back behind the concession.

Mr. BALL. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre to behind the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the shoe salesman; what did you do?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this door.

Mr. BALL. You mean at the rear of the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there, did you?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out to the concession.

Mr. BALL. Down the main aisle?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there police in there at that time?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They were in there checking to see where he was.

Mr. BALL. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the exit door to the concession?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. There was not?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the police?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really couldn't tell.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my rights," and all that.

Mr. BALL. What else did you hear?

Mr. BURROUGHS. That's about all.

Mr. BALL. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at everybody.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout in a loud voice?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; like--"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both hands above his head.]

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a mob of people out there--more people than I have ever seen before and they put him in the car and went off.

Mr. BALL. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him from the theatre?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I believe about three or four.

Mr. BALL. Did any of them have ahold of him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him out--I mean they had ahold of him--two on each side.

Mr. BALL. Was he walking or were they dragging him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door into the car.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. They were behind him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of this man, who arrested him?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?

Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature right now. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BURROUGHS. I want to come down and sign it.

Mr. BALL. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.

Mr. BURROUGHS. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I hope you did, too.

Mr. BURROUGHS. I'll see you later.

Mr. BALL. All right. Goodby.

TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CARROLL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. CARROLL. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. BALL. And what is your residence address?

Mr. CARROLL. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. CARROLL. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. CARROLL. Ten years and three months.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?

Mr. CARROLL. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. CARROLL. Sunset High.

Mr. BALL. And did you go beyond high school?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. CARROLL. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas Police Department.

Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. CARROLL. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What job was assigned to you that day?

Mr. CARROLL. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.

Mr. BALL. Along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk?

Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.

Mr. BALL. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?

Mr. CARROLL. That would be roughly about three blocks--three or four blocks, maybe.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the sound of any shots?

Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. CARROLL. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it--they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. CARROLL. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?

Mr. CARROLL. Let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting occurred--it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.

Mr. BALL. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?

Mr. CARROLL. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.

Mr. BALL. He works in plain clothes?