Part 25

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 150, is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; that's the color shirt he had on.

Mr. BALL. And then he had on a T-shirt?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the shirt he had on?

Mr. SIMS. Well--one that color--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that were in the audience side?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I knew about them, but I didn't know who was out there--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to them?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the witnesses at either of the three showups?

Mr. SIMS. Never did----

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. About what time was this?

Mr. SIMS. 7:55.

Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald for about another half hour.

Mr. BALL. And were you present?

Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I don't know if he was in there all the time or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was what time?

Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to].

Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one.

Mr. BALL. After the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup.

Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him?

Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.

Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I.

Mr. BALL. What did you find?

Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. And what else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.

Mr. BALL. Left front?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.

Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it.

Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness' examination.

Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket he had that in.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification.

Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain Fritz' desk.

Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who?

Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.

Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those?

Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope.

Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't think I talked with him.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?

Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his punch-card.

Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on the transfer?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe, identify his transfer.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.

Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.

Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?

Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.

Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?

Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top.

Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr. Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?

Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. What did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.

Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't know for sure.

Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab.

Mr. BALL. And what did he do?

Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?

Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.

Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of what?

Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."

Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"?

Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.

Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.

Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face?

Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. Of whose face?

Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face.

Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made?

Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was.

Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted a good long while--I don't know how long.

Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations then for the paraffin tests.

Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later than 10 o'clock that day?

Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10?

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his face.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets on Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then?

Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there.

Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he was there in the office?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.

Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there, came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room.

Mr. BALL. Why did you do that?

Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to.

Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Is it usual?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual.

Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do it for?

Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe.

Mr. BALL. For the press?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room is--the assembly room.

Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage.

Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And what happened?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen.

Mr. BALL. And what did they do?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with him.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he answer?

Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this was about what time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5 minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have been about, I guess, about 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him down there--what were his exact instructions?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.

Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?

Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police assembly room.

Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz' office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the showup room?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz' office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room."

Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us.

Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did.

Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you?

Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."

Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald, wasn't it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell them?

Mr. SIMS. He told them "no."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had killed Tippit or shot Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of them hollering at him--that's all I remember.

Mr. BALL. A bunch of them doing what?

Mr. SIMS. A bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him.

Mr. BALL. Were they talking loud?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was pretty noisy.

Mr. BALL. Now, you took him back to the jail office at 12:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we took him back to the jail office at 12:20 a.m. on November the 23d.

Mr. BALL. And you turned him over to the jailer?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We turned him over to the jailers there.

Mr. BALL. You turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next day, did you see him?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, I arrived for work at 9:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. And when did you first see Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. We checked at 10:25 a.m.--we checked--Boyd and I checked Lee Harvey Oswald out of jail and brought him to Captain Fritz' office for questioning.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Let's see, Mr. Bookhout of the FBI and Robert Nash who is the U.S. marshal, Mr. Kelley of the Secret Service.

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. And that was all.

Mr. BALL. And yourself?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I believe it says here--"Boyd and Hall stayed in the office during the interrogation."

Mr. BALL. You weren't in there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know why you left--did you have something else to do?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know if I was called out or what.

Mr. BALL. And how long did that interrogation take?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him back to the jail at 11:30 a.m.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Then, shortly afterward, myself and Boyd and Hall and Detective C. N. Dhority, (spelling) D-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to Oswald's room at 1026 North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do out there?

Mr. SIMS. We made another search of his room.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if we had a search warrant or not.

Mr. BALL. You went in the house, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we went in the house.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to the owner, Mrs. Johnson?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Mr. or Mrs.--which one?

Mr. SIMS. I believe both of them was there; I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. And you went into Oswald's room, didn't you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see?

Mr. SIMS. I think all we found in there was a paper clip or something of that nature. I don't remember what it was.

Mr. BALL. A paper clip?

Mr. SIMS. We didn't find anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you take anything away with you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or something--I don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, I know, the room was clean.

Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive and what time did you leave?

Mr. SIMS. Well, shortly after 11:30 we left--we arrived at 11:59 and left at 12:30.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SIMS. Well----

Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald case?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. Who are "we"?

Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.

Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. From the jail.

Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at 7:15 to the jail.

Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day.

Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. Over the television.

Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?

Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I believe we ought to do that.

You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, Mr. Sims?

Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th.

Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days?

Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. You worked it out together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the things occurred?

Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory?

Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory.

Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was prepared?

Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine.

Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific figure--is this because you had some record of these times?

Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen.

Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is that right?

Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions?

Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions.

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be over here.

Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them.

Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight.

Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city prisoners?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those.

Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age, 5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10", 169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.

Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.

Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the two?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our identification jacket--these are their descriptions.

Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their description?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving, Tex."

Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up and in what context the name was given?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.

Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he gave it to him?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was missing.

Mr. STERN. I see.

Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their jobs after the assassination.

Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?

Mr. SIMS. No; I don't.

Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?

Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05 on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells, and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?

Mr. SIMS. That's right.

Mr. STERN. Do you recall that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.

Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.

Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time of his arrest?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.

Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol shells--cartridges--did you comment on that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all.

Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember what I asked or what he said.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was conducting himself?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.

Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what questions he didn't?

Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the questions.

Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the course of the day?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.

Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment?

Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a lawyer, and things of that nature.

Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment?