Part 24

Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.

Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time.

Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. He said, "No."

Mr. BALL. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember now what--I wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him.

Mr. BALL. Who did the questioning?

Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone else ask him questions?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well----

Mr. SIMS. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on that evening.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself then.

Mr. BALL. Was he handcuffed at that time?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he was or not.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him.

Mr. SIMS. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed?

Mr. BALL. But that was late that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; it was around--it was after dark, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, I'm talking about--only about the interrogation that commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.

Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently--this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.

Mr. BALL. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept.

Mr. BALL. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door.

Mr. BALL. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. SIMS. It's in the same office, but just a different room--there's just a hall separating them.

Mr. BALL. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; we talked to him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to him?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember--it was just--I know I asked him about his--later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at 4:05?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time it was.

Mr. BALL. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in Russia?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office and and before the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And it was in the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. I--well, I don't know--I have talked to him both places, and I don't know--I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.

Mr. BALL. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the President, what do you mean?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.

Mr. BALL. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it.

Mr. BALL. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?

Mr. SIMS. Not at all; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?

Mr. SIMS. None at all.

Mr. BALL. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did you say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.

Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; in Russia.

Mr. BALL. Oh, in Russia--I see--what did he say?

Mr. SIMS. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.

Mr. BALL. Anything else?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything else he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you about his wife?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't talk about her much.

Mr. BALL. Or his children?

Mr. SIMS. He said he had some children; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else except he had some children?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he said he had--I don't know if he told me he had a brother or not.

Mr. BALL. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room and also went to Irving, I believe.

Mr. BALL. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around 3:30.

Mr. SIMS. That's right, I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he told me that or not.

Mr. BALL. Now, the first showup was at what time?

Mr. SIMS. At 4:05.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct that showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police officers.

Mr. BALL. What two police officers?

Mr. SIMS. Clark and Perry.

Mr. BALL. You say you took him down--where was he when you took him down?

Mr. SIMS. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. That would be on the second floor?

Mr. SIMS. Third floor.

Mr. BALL. On the third floor?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take him?

Mr. SIMS. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.

Mr. BALL. You have a special place for showups, do you?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And would you describe it?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform--I guess it's 2 or 2-1/2 or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Is it a cloth screen between the----

Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.

Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of seats?

Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something like this here.

Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.

Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did.

Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.

Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.

Mr. BALL. How were they dressed?

Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know.

Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will.

Mr. SIMS. All right.

Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.

Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him.

Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail?

Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.

Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is 26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.

Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?

Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience?

Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup?

Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in our office conducted the first showup.

Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?

Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.

Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?

Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.

Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and what he said?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted natural.

Mr. BALL. Answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he protest any?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a T-shirt on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a T-shirt or something.

Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.

Mr. BALL. He answered the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the witnesses out there?

Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this showup?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there.

Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.

Mr. BALL. At 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald some more.

Mr. BALL. What were their names?

Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names.

Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald took place?

Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20, so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were handcuffed or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you heard there?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he told Captain Fritz or the agents either.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.

Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him questions at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions.

Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their names--I don't remember who it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?

Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city hall.

Mr. BALL. And you took him where?

Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there.

Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup?

Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one.

Mr. BALL. Mention their names again.

Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately, and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.

Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?

Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white T-shirt on underneath that.

Mr. BALL. Underneath that?

Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that.

Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes.

Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they have coats on--did anyone have a coat on?

Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I conducted the second showup.

Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it?

Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one, two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.

Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience side of the showup?

Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers assigned to these people?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned to the second showup.

Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald, R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.

Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup?

Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup.

Mr. BALL. The same numbers?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same men?

Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers.

Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?

Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at 6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?

Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by Fritz that evening?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did this take place?

Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. And who was present?

Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else was there--I don't know who else was present.

Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave Johnston?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder complaint?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.

Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. For what murder?

Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to your records?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr. Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.

Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.

Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup?

Mr. SIMS. At 7:40.

Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup?

Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.

Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1?

Mr. SIMS. No. 1----

Mr. BALL. And who else?

Mr. SIMS. No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Who was three?

Mr. SIMS. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. BALL. Who was he?

Mr. SIMS. He was a city prisoner.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Do you know his address?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to him?

Mr. SIMS. I believe he's in the penitentiary.

Mr. BALL. Brazel is in the penitentiary?

Mr. SIMS. I believe so--I'm not positive.

Mr. BALL. Who was No. 4?

Mr. SIMS. No. 4 was Don Ables.

Mr. BALL. That's the jail clerk?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember how these men were dressed?

Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't, I don't remember how they were dressed.

Mr. BALL. Did they have coats on?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they had coats on or not.

Mr. BALL. Were they all handcuffed?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Together?

Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted this showup?

Mr. SIMS. I don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who was out in front.

Mr. BALL. You were on the stage side?

Mr. SIMS. Still on the stage side; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and ask the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald answer the questions?

Mr. SIMS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was he dressed differently than the other three at that time?

Mr. SIMS. Well, he was dressed differently but I don't know--how differently he was dressed.

Mr. BALL. What did he have on?

Mr. SIMS. He still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as I know.

Mr. BALL. In all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before?