Part 21

Mr. BALL. Now, I will show you another picture which we will mark as "Exhibit D," was that taken by you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit D," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Does that show the position of the boxes before or after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's after they were dusted--there's fingerprint dust on every box.

Mr. BALL. And they were not in that position then when you first saw them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window sill?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Where is your other picture--and I will show you? See this box right here--this box?

Mr. BALL. We are referring now to the box shown in Exhibit B.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's one of these Rolling Readers there in Exhibit B, you can read it right here--it's upside down. It says, "Second Rolling Readers."

Mr. BALL. That says 10.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it says Second; that's that little Rolling Reader--it says "Second Rolling Readers". They don't go by this up there, they go by this right here, this little print. Now, this box was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it is wrapped around--that was laying in the window like this on the top box.

Mr. BALL. "In the window like this," you mean as shown on Exhibit B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is Exhibit B.

Mr. BALL. It was on the window ledge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on the window ledge, just like it is right there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned up on end.

Mr. BALL. You say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a description of "this box"--you mean the box marked "books"?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box marked "books"--now, we have--this thing is stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in this other print. You can't see it in this print.

Mr. BALL. What other print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. When you make a negative, you have to put it on your exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your negative.

Mr. BALL. First, let me get back to what we were talking about first.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, this box was sitting right here--the first box in Exhibit A.

Mr. BALL. Wait just a minute--let me direct your attention to Exhibit B, does it show a box on the window ledge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box--the Second Rolling Readers.

Mr. BALL. That picture was taken before the box was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That box shown in the window ledge in Exhibit B was the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And underneath that was another box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Another Rolling Reader box?

Mr. BALL. And underneath that sitting on the floor was another box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A box marked "books".

Mr. BALL. It was larger in size?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was larger in size.

Mr. BALL. Than the Rolling Readers box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on its end or on its side?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was on its end. You see, these staples right along here, these staples show in another print. They don't show in this print--this is just a bad print.

Mr. BALL. When you say "in this," what is it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This is Exhibit--what is it?

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit A.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A--it was standing on end.

Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit A--can you tell me looking at Exhibit A whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the center, or over at the right.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. They were in the left-hand corner of the window looking towards Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. How close to the edge of the sill?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Right at the edge.

Mr. BALL. Right at the edge?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box shown in Exhibit A, is that a little Rolling Reader box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have a picture here which we will mark "Exhibit E."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit E," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository taken by a photographer right after shots were fired at President Kennedy.

Can you tell me whether or not the Rolling Readers box you identified in Exhibit A is shown in that picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the top corner.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's this corner right here.

Mr. BALL. Let's put a circle around that so we can identify that.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Have you got a ballpoint pen?

(Witness Studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. The circle surrounds that box, is that correct?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There is another box shown in Exhibit E here over to the right of the window as you stand looking out of the window.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It would be these boxes back over in here--it would be the top of those boxes.

Mr. BALL. How far were they away from the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I would have to look at the measurements--I have the measurements down here. This is the box you see right there, in that picture. You see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one.

Mr. BALL. You are referring to Exhibit A?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit A.

Mr. BALL. And it is the row of boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Behind this window--that's the top of that box--that's all it is.

Mr. BALL. It is the top of a box that is shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And they were set back from the window 2 or 3 feet, were they?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, they were about 18 inches is all that was.

Mr. BALL. Let's make two circles--one circle around the top of the Rolling Readers and one circle around the top of the other box. So, the people who read this can understand it, make the Rolling Readers circle an "X" circle and mark it out here--mark "X" and the other circle a "Y" circle.

(Witness Studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, the Rolling Readers box, which is shown in the "X" circle on this Exhibit E, where was that with reference to the window sill itself?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Sitting right on the sill.

Mr. BALL. And the box that is shown in the picture as around the "Y" circle of Exhibit E, that was how far from the window itself?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Approximately 18 inches from the inside brick of the window.

Mr. BALL. And that little aisleway is shown on Exhibits A and B?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, on A and B.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Storage room there--in the southeast corner of the building--folded.

Mr. BALL. In the southeast corner of the building?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was a paper--I don't know what it was.

Mr. BALL. And it was folded, you say?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were Rolling Readers?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Directly east.

Mr. BALL. There is a corner there, isn't it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; in the southeast corner.

Mr. BALL. It was in the southeast corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew that box in for somebody over at the FBI that said you wanted it. It is in one of those pictures--one of the shots after the duplicate shot.

Mr. BALL. Let's mark this picture "Exhibit F."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit F," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. Do you know who took that picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the diagram?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you draw the diagram?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I drew a diagram in there for the FBI, somebody from the FBI called me down--I can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found.

Mr. BALL. Does that show the approximate location?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where you have the dotted lines?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water pipes in the corner there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was that with reference to those pipes--the paper wrapping?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Laying right beside it--right here.

Mr. BALL. Was it folded over?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was doubled--it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over.

Mr. BALL. How long was it, approximately?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't know--I picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to Washington and that's the last I have seen of it, and I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of it before you picked it up?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Does that sack show in any of the pictures you took?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; it doesn't show in any of the pictures.

Mr. BALL. Was it near the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which way from the window?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was east of the window.

Mr. BALL. Over in the corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Over in the corner--in the southeast corner of the building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where it was.

Mr. BALL. You say you dusted it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. With that magnetic powders.

Mr. BALL. Did you lift any prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. There wasn't but just smudges on it--is all it was. There was one little ole piece of a print and I'm sure I put a piece of tape on it to preserve it.

Mr. BALL. Well, then, there was a print that you found on it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; just a partial print.

Mr. BALL. The print of a finger or palm or what?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You couldn't tell, it was so small.

Mr. BALL. But you did dust it and lift some print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with some paper?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. We have--it's like a Magic Mending Tape, only we use it just strictly for fingerprinting.

Mr. BALL. Let's stick with the paper.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, on the paper I put a piece of 1 inch tape over it--I'm sure I did.

Mr. BALL. After you dusted the print, you put a 1 inch tape over it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you also lift a print off of the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You lifted a print off of a box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where was the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box was due north of the paper that was found, and it was, I believe, we have it that it was--I can read the measurements off of one of these things--how far it was.

Mr. BALL. Fine, do that.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was 16-1/2 inches from the--from this wall over here (indicating).

Mr. BALL. Which wall are you talking about?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was from the south wall of the building.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of that box in place before it was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The box from which you lifted the prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This box never was moved.

Mr. BALL. That box never was moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That box never was moved.

Mr. BALL. And you took a picture of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was the location of it when you lifted the print of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And may I have that, please, and we will mark it Exhibit G.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was with them in the corner all the time--they were with me, rather, I guess Captain Fritz told them to stay with us and help us in case they were needed.

Mr. BALL. Johnson and Montgomery?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Johnson and Montgomery--they were with me all the time over in that one corner.

Mr. BALL. Now, we have here a picture which we will mark "G."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit G," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. This is your No. 26, and that shows the box, does it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that was its location with reference to the corner?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; that's the exact location.

Mr. BALL. Can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was found?

(Witness Studebaker drew on instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. That would be directly south?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be directly south of where the box was.

Mr. BALL. You have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast corner. Now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It is 16 inches from the south wall.

Mr. BALL. You say you lifted a print there off of this box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And now, is that shown in the picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the picture? Describe what you see there.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, there is a box with a partial print on the--it would be the northwest corner of the box.

Mr. BALL. Was that a palm print or a fingerprint?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A palm.

Mr. BALL. It was a palm print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And does it show the direction of the palm?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Which way?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. West.

Mr. BALL. It would be made with the hand----

Mr. STUDEBAKER. With the right hand sitting on the box.

Mr. BALL. And the fingers pointed west, is that it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that is the outline shown in this picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in Exhibit F, does that also show--did you attempt to show the diagram of the palm in Exhibit F; did you do that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; could I?

Mr. BALL. Did you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Did I do this?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. But, does that correspond with your opinion as to the direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm print was made?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. There were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm print?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; just the palm print.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have some more pictures there to show me?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Well, I've got a bunch of them. I made this diagram of the whole sixth floor of that building. This isn't the original, and J. B. Hicks and I measured this thing and I drew the diagram.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you take a picture of it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let me see that one.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. All right--it has the Dr. Pepper bottle and the paper sack that was sitting there in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Let me see that one.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Handed instrument to Counsel Ball.)

There are two different views of it--there's one and here's one. That was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. This is a shot--I believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is marked--it's the sixth floor of 411 Elm Street looking south and the third aisle from Houston Street on the south side of the building. That was taken looking directly into that--this is the sack with those chicken bones and all that mess was in there too.

Mr. BALL. Is the sack shown there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes; it's a little ole brown sack--yes; it's right there.

Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit H," which is your No. 6.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit H," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. That's the sack, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it shows--it has some chicken bones in it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Any chicken bones in any other place?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. None outside the sack?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. It had a little piece of Fritos in the sack, too.

Mr. BALL. Then, we will have the next picture marked Exhibit I, which shows the Dr. Pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit I," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. And that's your No. 7.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That's the third row over?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That's the third aisle from Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. That would be the third set of windows?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. That would be the third set of windows--it would be--one, two, three.

Mr. BALL. The third set of windows from Houston Street--you mark it.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

(Instrument marked by the witness Studebaker as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I don't believe there was one there.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see any. One witness, a deputy sheriff named Luke Looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Was anything like that called to your attention?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I can't recall anything like that. It ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is.

Mr. BALL. You made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by numbers, did you not?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge to the sidewalk, didn't you?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How many feet?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Let me see--61 feet from the window ledge to the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. Now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You will have to see Chief Curry. He gave orders that no pictures were to be released without his permission. You can call him, if you want to.

Mr. BALL. Well, I already have taken some of them.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I'm sure he will. We have printed about 10,000 of them--it seems like that and I don't imagine that two or three more would make any difference. This is out of a master set--all of these pictures you have here.

Mr. BALL. The picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir; they were moved there. This is exactly the position they were in.

Mr. BALL. It is?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes--not--this was after they were moved, but I put them back in the same exact position.

Mr. BALL. Were they that close--that was about the position?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, which will be "Exhibit J."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Studebaker Exhibit J," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. After the boxes of Rolling Readers had been moved, you put them back in the same position?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And took a picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And this is Exhibit J, is it, is that right?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Exhibit J, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the box that had the print on it is shown?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Let's put a few hieroglyphics on here--a few numbers on here. Let's put the box with the print that was found as 1.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. You want 1 marked on this box?

(Witness Studebaker marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And the place where the paper sack was found as No. 2 and the box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it No. 3.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instruments as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. And outline the indentation with a circle.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Witness executed outline as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Was there any other indentation on that box besides that which is shown in the circle on 3?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. That's the only one?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, you see, I dusted these first, because I figured he might have stacked them up.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No prints, and then I was standing right there and I told Johnson and Montgomery that there should be a print, and I turned around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and I dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and started dusting this big box, No. 1 here, and lifted the print off of that box.

Mr. BALL. Did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that box in your crime lab?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I was up in that building until 1 o'clock that morning and got there at 1 and left at 1 and they had seized all of our evidence and I haven't seen it since.

Lieutenant Day compared the print before it was released to Oswald's print.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. He compared it as Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. BALL. Did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard before you moved it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. As soon as the print was lifted, you see, I taped it and then they took the print down there. They just took the top corner of this box down there.

Mr. BALL. They just took the top part of the box down there?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, and when we took this picture, we took it back--that stuff has been up there and back until I was so confused I don't know what was going on.

Mr. BALL. You mean, when you took the picture which is marked Exhibit J----

Mr. STUDEBAKER. This picture has the palm print on it.

Mr. BALL. It has the palm print--it had been removed and had been identified and brought back and put in the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It had been brought back and put in the box and as being Oswald's right palm print.

Mr. BALL. So, in Exhibit J, you put the cardboard back on the box?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. On the box, yes, sir; where it was found.

Mr. BALL. Where you had found it? You put the Rolling Readers boxes back where you first saw them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then you took a picture?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So, this Exhibit J, gives us the scene as you saw it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Before the boxes were moved?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And before the palm print was identified?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken bones in it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was found?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, no prints.

Mr. BALL. Or the two-wheeler truck?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. No prints?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No.

Mr. BALL. You dusted around there for them?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. I dusted everything around that area. There was just smears and smudges on the bottom.

Mr. BALL. Did you dust the rifle?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. No, sir; Lieutenant Day handled the rifle part of it. I didn't mess with the rifle at all. He took it down to the city hall and they worked on it down there at the lab.

Mr. BALL. Do you have the measurements of the boxes?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, I have all the measurements.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Down at the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Let's take Exhibit J--how did the height of the little Rolling Reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the box you have marked "3" that had the indentation on it?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. It was lower, approximately 3 or 4 inches lower than the box marked "Exhibit 3, or No. 3" in the picture.

Mr. BALL. Which box was lower, tell us which box was lower?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. The box on the sill was lower than the box--do you want to mark it "4"--the box in the window?

Mr. BALL. The box in the window, you mark it "4," if you wish.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. (Marked instrument as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Now, tell us which box, identifying it by number.

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Box No. 4 in the window was approximately 3 to 4 inches lower than Box No. 3 pictured in the picture of Exhibit J.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him.

Mr. STERN. Perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but I think it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes were placed that way?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. A good gun rest.

Mr. STERN. In that arrangement?

Mr. STUDEBAKER. Yes, it was a good gun rest.