Part 2

Mr. BREWER. Yes, he turned and walked up toward----

Mr. BELIN. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?

Mr. BREWER. No; you could still hear sirens.

Mr. BELIN. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going away?

Mr. BREWER. They were going away at that time.

Mr. BELIN. Going the other way?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How could you tell?

Mr. BREWER. They were getting further in the distance.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see this man do?

Mr. BREWER. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. What theatre is that?

Mr. BREWER. Texas Theatre.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?

Mr. BREWER. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there?

Mr. BREWER. No; he just stood there and stared.

Mr. BELIN. He stared?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he looking at the merchandise?

Mr. BREWER. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there staring.

Mr. BELIN. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. BREWER. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen him.

So I walked in and Butch Burroughs----

Mr. BELIN. Who was Burroughs?

Mr. BREWER. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody.

And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.

I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket?

Mr. BREWER. No; he just turned and walked right straight in.

Mr. BELIN. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box office?

Mr. BREWER. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other buildings.

Mr. BELIN. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?

Mr. BREWER. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box office.

Mr. BELIN. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?

Mr. BREWER. I knew that he hadn't.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?

Mr. BREWER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. You just asked her?

Mr. BREWER. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go in.

Mr. BELIN. She--did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you remember?

Mr. BREWER. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in.

Mr. BELIN. All right. You saw this person Butch?

Mr. BREWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You say he is the usher, too?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did you and Butch do?

Mr. BREWER. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage. First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to the back and it hadn't been opened.

Mr. BELIN. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to close it from the inside.

Mr. BELIN. In other words, you have to close it from the inside?

Mr. BREWER. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock.

Mr. BELIN. It was locked when you got there?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you knew that no one had left?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see him?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?

Mr. BREWER. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20. I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Together, 15 or 20?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?

Mr. BREWER. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear any noises there?

Mr. BREWER. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him.

But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.

Mr. BELIN. Julia Postal is the cashier?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; and she called the police, and we went--Butch went to the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there until the police came.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him?

Mr. BREWER. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from the back, toward the back.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know exactly which row he was in from the back?

Mr. BREWER. No; I don't know which row.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. BREWER. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there was no place I could see.

Mr. BELIN. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin with?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.

And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him out.

And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?

Mr. BREWER. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.

Mr. BELIN. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. BREWER. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.

Mr. BELIN. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you say this man was the same man?

Mr. BREWER. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to the show.

Mr. BELIN. Who hit who first?

Mr. BREWER. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.

Mr. BELIN. Who knocked who?

Mr. BREWER. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.

Mr. BELIN. When you say he was----

Mr. BREWER. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and--in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see from where the gun came?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the gun up in the air?

Mr. BREWER. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.

Mr. BELIN. Was he fighting back at that time?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; he was fighting back.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him?

Mr. BREWER. No; I didn't see them.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped fighting?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. BREWER. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble or concrete?

Mr. BREWER. Terrazzo.

Mr. BELIN. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you first saw him?

Mr. BREWER. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.

Mr. BELIN. About how far were you from the front door?

Mr. BREWER. Ten feet.

Mr. BELIN. Could you see through there to get a good view?

Mr. BREWER. Yes; the doors are solid glass.

Mr. BELIN. Then you saw this man leave?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store and watched him.

Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of the door?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out in front of your store?

Mr. BREWER. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture store. What is the name of that?

Mr. BELIN. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you know--notice how fast this man was walking?

Mr. BREWER. Just a little faster than usual.

Mr. BELIN. Faster than usual walk?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Then about how far were you behind him?

Mr. BREWER. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I don't really know what I was thinking about.

Mr. BELIN. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the theatre?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?

Mr. BREWER. I would say 50 or 60 feet--yards.

Mr. BELIN. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do?

Mr. BREWER. Then I walked toward the theatre.

Mr. BELIN. At an average pace, or above average?

Mr. BREWER. I don't know.

Mr. BELIN. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?

Mr. BREWER. I don't remember that either.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came in?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears on this?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked "Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?

Mr. BREWER. That looks like the shirt, yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in the elbows at all, or not?

Mr. BREWER. I didn't notice.

Mr. BELIN. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?

Mr. BREWER. It looks like the shirt.

Mr. BELIN. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.

Mr. BREWER. No, he didn't have on a jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything other than "I am not resisting arrest."?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?

Mr. BREWER. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.

Mr. BELIN. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before or after they had the handcuffs on him?

Mr. BREWER. After.

Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington. Do you have any preference on it?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded in this written testimony?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell you what I thought the story was?

Mr. BREWER. You asked me to tell the story first.

Mr. BELIN. Is that what you did?

Mr. BREWER. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. BREWER. No.

Mr. BELIN. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take the time to be here. We thank you very much.

Mr. BREWER. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL

The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. POSTAL. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. POSTAL. Julia Postal.

Mr. BALL. What is your address, please?

Mrs. POSTAL. 2728 Seevers.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just in general.

Mrs. POSTAL. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out there.

Mr. BALL. Finished high school there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Went through 4 years of it.

Mr. BALL. In California?

Mrs. POSTAL. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and came back here. I have been here ever since.

Mr. BALL. What has been your occupation?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and officework in connection with theatres.

Mr. BALL. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in the office.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?

Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; really, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. Have you been working? You are now working where?

Mrs. POSTAL. With the Texas--really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at the Texas Theatre.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there?

Mrs. POSTAL. It was 11 years last November 24.

Mr. BALL. Same theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Same theatre.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours of work last fall?

Mrs. POSTAL. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box office and worked until 5.

Mr. BALL. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?

Mrs. POSTAL. Sell tickets.

Mr. BALL. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, because it is just straight through.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your box office open?

Mrs. POSTAL. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes later or something, but that is our regular hours.

Mr. BALL. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around 12:45, 1 o'clock?

Mrs. POSTAL. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and ticket.

Mr. BALL. What was his name?

Mrs. POSTAL. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.

Mr. BALL. Butch Burroughs?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and steps insides, and tears tickets.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh, a transistor.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little transistor on right away, and of course it verified the--they were saying again that he had been shot.

Mr. BALL. And did you find out that he had died here? That President Kennedy was dead or----

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that?

Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.

Mr. BALL. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, did you?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about--it was just about the time all chaos broke loose.

Mr. BALL. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?

Mrs. POSTAL. Some.

Mr. BALL. How many? Can you give me an estimate?

Mrs. POSTAL. I believe 24.

Mr. BALL. Twenty-four?

Mrs. POSTAL. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything was happening so fast.

Mr. BALL. You had sold about that many tickets?

Mrs. POSTAL. That's right.

Mr. BALL. What was the price of admission?

Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.

Mr. BALL. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.

Mr. BALL. Same price?

Mrs. POSTAL. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre--well, did you see any activity on the street?

Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he--and about this time I heard the sirens--police was racing back and forth.

Mr. BALL. On Jefferson?

Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about--some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?

Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.

Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.

Mr. BALL. Its siren on?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.

Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were----

Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and--I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.

Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.

Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.

Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?

Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.

Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.

Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other--into the outer part of it.

Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.

Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he?

Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went--one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually--because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?

Mrs. POSTAL. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, "Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he has to be there." So I told him to go back and check--we have exit doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. Well, he just had to be.

Mr. BALL. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; he was still just in--just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Were the doors of the theatre open?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It was closed?

Mrs. POSTAL. It was closed.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?

Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west.