Part 19

Mr. BOYD. I was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into that showup room from the room leading into the jail office.

Mr. BALL. Who asked the questions?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--at one of the showups--I've forgotten whether it was on this particular one--whether it was someone out from--Sims asked him some questions in one of those showups.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask any questions?

Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall--I don't believe I did.

Mr. BALL. How were these men dressed that were in this showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me think--some of them had coats and slacks and one of them--let's see--I don't recall what color, but some of them--I don't believe any of them had a tie on--the officers had taken their ties off and I think Ables, I believe, was in his shirt sleeves.

Mr. BALL. Without a tie--did he have a tie on?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Ables was in his shirt sleeves. What about the two officers, Perry?

Mr. BOYD. Now, I remember Perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his shirt buttoned back up at the top, I remember that.

Mr. BALL. What about Clark?

Mr. BOYD. As I remember, Clark had on a white shirt. Now, I'm not sure--well, I'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but I remember seeing him in a white shirt as he came in.

Mr. BALL. Were they manacled--handcuffed?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; they were handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. All four of them?

Mr. BOYD. Yes--handcuffed together.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald have on?

Mr. BOYD. Well, he had on some--I believe it was dark slacks--it seems like it was a brown shirt he had on--he had on a long-sleeved shirt. It seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there--I'm not too sure about that jacket--I know he had on a sport shirt and slacks.

Mr. BALL. Well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the other three, weren't they?

Mr. BOYD. Well, could have been.

Mr. BALL. The other three were better dressed than Oswald, would you say?

Mr. BOYD. Well, yes, sir; I would say they probably were.

Mr. BALL. Oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole in the elbow, didn't he?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did or not--I'm not sure.

Mr. BALL. Now, when they asked questions of Oswald at this showup, did he reply?

Mr. BOYD. I believe he did at that one--I believe he did reply.

Mr. BALL. Was he angry?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe he was too angry.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout or yell in a loud voice?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him shouting.

Mr. BALL. He didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time?

Mr. BOYD. No.

Mr. BALL. Did he at some other showup protest?

Mr. BOYD. I heard he did, but I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Were you present?

Mr. BOYD. I wasn't present at that one.

Mr. BALL. You weren't present at any time in which he made any protest of the type of showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. This day--this first showup--did he protest that it was not a fair showup?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall if he did.

Mr. BALL. Did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't think it was fair to put those men in with him?

Mr. BALL. He didn't tell me that--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair?

Mr. BOYD. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I couldn't--I don't recall any of it--I couldn't hear anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you know any of the witnesses that were out there?

Mr. BOYD. I couldn't see them.

Mr. BALL. Did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were out in the audience?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup?

Mr. BOYD. I took him back--I took Lee Oswald back to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get him back there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, we left in there, I think it was 4:20--I believe--yes; that was by my watch. I was just going by my watch; it could have been off.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that interrogation?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--I don't recall who was up there--I think there was an FBI agent and I think a Secret Service man was up there and I don't recall the names of the ones that was there.

Mr. BALL. Was there only one FBI agent at that interrogation?

Mr. BOYD. Well, it seems like that's all there was up there--just one. I think another one came in--now, I never did know--there was another one that came in--now, I never did know--then there was another one that came in, but I didn't ever know if he was Secret Service or an FBI man--I never did know. But someone--I believe, called him back out right after he got in there, but I'm not sure.

Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of the FBI agents?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. How about the Secret Service?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know their names.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Secret Service man there?

Mr. BOYD. I think there was a Secret Service man there.

Mr. BALL. More than one?

Mr. BOYD. Just one.

Mr. BALL. Do you know his name?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see if I have it here.

Mr. BALL. Was Kelley there?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Kelley was there at one interrogation.

Mr. BALL. How long did this one last that started at 4:20?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I don't know, but at 6:20 we took him back downstairs for another showup.

Mr. BALL. Do you think it lasted 2 hours, the interrogation in Fritz' office?

Mr. BOYD. Well, no, sir; I don't think they were in there that long.

Mr. BALL. Did you feed Oswald at any time?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Hall--I don't know--I believe someone asked him if he wanted anything and he said he didn't. Mr. Hall finally gave him a cup of coffee--he finally took a cup of coffee from Mr. Hall--I don't recall just exactly the time--that's M. G. Hall.

Mr. BALL. He's one of your partners?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir [spelling] H-a-l-l, and I think--let me see--I know that he gave him a cup of coffee.

Mr. BALL. Well, from the time that you first took Oswald into your custody after 2:15 or so, you said, until you put him in jail that night about 12:20, or 12:30, did he have anything to eat?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat?

Mr. BOYD. I ate real late that night--I don't remember just what time it was.

Mr. BALL. How late?

Mr. BOYD. I think I ate around 9 o'clock--I'm not sure about that--it could have been 10.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this interrogation that started about 4:20, do you remember what was said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I sure don't.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I think he was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in front or behind?

Mr. BOYD. They were in front of him, I believe, still.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that took place at that interrogation--anything that was said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir--I sure don't.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And who was present at that showup?

Mr. BOYD. We had the same showup as we had had before and they were numbered the same as they were before.

Mr. BALL. Were the men dressed any differently?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; they were dressed like they were before.

Mr. BALL. And do you know who conducted the showup--asked the questions?

Mr. BOYD. Now, I believe that this is the one that Mr. Sims asked some questions.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first showup that afternoon?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. BALL. Was there a Mr. Leavelle on duty that day?

Mr. BOYD. Mr. Leavelle was down there, I believe, on that day.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask questions at any of the showups?

Mr. BOYD. I think he did, but I'm afraid to say for sure because I don't really know.

Mr. BALL. At the second showup, did Oswald answer the questions--at 6:20?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; I think he answered the questions.

Mr. BALL. Was he angry?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being angry.

Mr. BALL. Did he talk louder than the other three men?

Mr. BOYD. Not especially that I noticed.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what they said to the officers?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that showup?

Mr. BOYD. We took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time?

Mr. BOYD. I think it was 6:30 or 7 when we left the showup room when we took him there.

Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?

Mr. BOYD. Well, that was when Justice of the Peace David Johnston [spelling] J-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, Bill Alexander, William F. Alexander, I believe is his true name--they came in with Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Oswald was there too, was he?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What took place there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, Captain Fritz signed a murder complaint against Lee Harvey Oswald and that was for the murder of J. D. Tippit.

Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation that took place there at that time in front of Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was it, that you can remember?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I believe Judge Johnston, I believe, read the charge to Oswald, and--well, I don't recall the rest of that conversation.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. At any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of anyone accuse Oswald of having shot Officer Tippit?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir--I heard--I believe I heard Captain Fritz talk to him about shooting Officer Tippit--I don't remember what interrogation it was in.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear anybody accuse Oswald of shooting the President, President Kennedy?

Mr. BOYD. I remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the President.

Mr. BALL. Who talked to him about it?

Mr. BOYD. I believe it was Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did Oswald say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he didn't shoot anyone.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember what Oswald said when Judge Johnston read the charge to Oswald? The charge of murder of Tippit, if he said anything?

Mr. BOYD. I think he said something, but I cannot tell you what it was.

Mr. BALL. You don't recall that?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Oswald did make some statement, though?

Mr. BOYD. I believe he said something--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask for a lawyer?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer--I believe it was a lawyer by the name of Abt [spelling] A-b-t in New York City.

Mr. BALL. When did he say that? When did he tell you that?

Mr. BOYD. It was--either right before the first showup, or right after the first showup.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz said he would--he didn't ask me, he was talking to Captain Fritz--yes.

Mr. BALL. This was in Captain Fritz' office?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did Fritz say?

Mr. BOYD. He said he would see if he could make arrangements later on for him to use the telephone later on and call him.

Mr. BALL. Was anything said about who would pay for the call?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. No mention of that?

Mr. BOYD. I think he said he would call collect--I'm not sure.

Mr. BALL. Who said that--Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see, I believe after that was signed, Mr. Clements--I believe, came in there.

Mr. BALL. In where?

Mr. BOYD. In Captain Fritz' office, and started talking to Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And do you remember what he asked him?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I know he asked him about his name and I think he asked him where he was born, I think, and he asked him about his life in Russia--when he went to Russia and when he came back--I don't recall all of that.

Mr. BALL. And Oswald answered the questions?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I'll tell you--Oswald, he answered his questions until he finally--well, this interrogation was interrupted by another showup, and after we came back up Mr. Clements continued his interrogation and finally Oswald told him he was just tired talking and he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else to say.

He came in there and he wanted to get a little--well, he told him he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background, and Oswald finally got up and said, "What started out to be a short interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "I believe I have answered all the questions I have cared to answer, and I don't care to say anything else."

And sat back down.

Mr. BALL. He stood up and said that, did he?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; he stood up and said it. He just sat back in the chair and said, "I don't care to talk any more."

Mr. BALL. The first interrogation by Clements was interrupted, wasn't it?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third showup that you participated in?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And that took place at what time?

Mr. BOYD. It was 7:30, let me see, no--7:40.

Mr. BALL. And who took part in that showup?

Mr. BOYD. You mean the officers?

Mr. BALL. No; who were the parties in the showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, the first one was Richard Walter Borchgardt, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was--I have the wrong name in here--I have the last name--I just asked him his name as he came out in the showup room there and I understood him to say it was Braswell but it was Brazel.

Mr. BALL. Brazell--how do you spell that?

Mr. BOYD. [Spelling.] Brazel. B-r-a-z-e-l.

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel.

Mr. BALL. He was the third man?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was the fourth man?

Mr. BOYD. Don Ables was the fourth.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you changed the parties to the showup?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know any reason.

Mr. BALL. Who directed that?

Mr. BOYD. I don't know--we met them down in the jail office and they had those three men down there.

Mr. BALL. What is the usual thing--when you are going to have a showup and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear in the showup?

Mr. BOYD. Well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and have them send us down--if he's already in jail, we just have them send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and we will tell them to give us this particular one--or three or four men--whatever the case may be.

Mr. BALL. Who picks them?

Mr. BOYD. The jailers upstairs.

Mr. BALL. Do you tell them to get them all the same color?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color. I never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color.

Mr. BALL. What about the size and weight?

Mr. BOYD. Now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size and age and weight as they can. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

Mr. BALL. In this case you didn't pick the men for the showup?

Mr. BOYD. I didn't know them--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or any of the showups?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this third showup took place at what time?

Mr. BOYD. We left the office at 7:40 and it takes, like I say, 2 or 3 minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back--we left down there to go back up at 7:55.

Mr. BALL. Who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you attended?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall who did.

Mr. BALL. What about Oswald's manner in the third showup?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall him being any different in that showup than the first two.

Mr. BALL. What about the appearance of the men in this showup--let's take the No. 1 man--what was his coloring and weight and size?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--this is that Richard Walter Borchgardt. He was born May 30, 1940, and our records show him to be 5' 9", and 161 pounds.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t?

Mr. BOYD. That's [spelling] B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.

Mr. BALL. 161 pounds?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion.

Mr. BALL. What was he in for, do you know?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, he was in for CPW and investigation of burglary and theft.

Mr. BALL. Then, the second man was who?

Mr. BOYD. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And the third man--was who?

Mr. BOYD. Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l.

Mr. BALL. That's [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l--just one "l"?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was No. 3 and what is his description?

Mr. BOYD. He was born November 24, 1941, and it shows him to be 5' 10", 169 pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion.

Mr. BALL. What was he in for?

Mr. BOYD. I think he was in for tickets.

Mr. BALL. You mean, going too fast--speeding?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir; I believe that's right, or having some overdue tickets--he could have been in for something else, but that's what I think he was in for.

Mr. BALL. And Don Ables is the fourth man?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He was the No. 4 man in the first two shows, too?

Mr. BOYD. This shows him to be 5' 9", 165 pounds.

Mr. BALL. What do you have Oswald down for?

Mr. BOYD. I don't have his description down, but I think he told me he was 5' and 8" or 9" and weighed 140-something pounds--I believe that is what he told me.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what happened to Borchgardt?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Or to Brazel?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, in this showup, the third showup, was Oswald's manner any different than it had been the first two showups?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall it being any different.

Mr. BALL. Did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he started talking to Mr. Clements again and he didn't get upset.

Mr. BALL. How long did he talk to Mr. Clements? This last time?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let's see--he didn't talk to him but for about half an hour.

Mr. BALL. Then, after that what happened?

Mr. BOYD. Well, after Mr. Clements left, well, in a few minutes Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker from the crime lab came down to the office, that's Captain Fritz' office, and Detective Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and Sgt. Pete Barnes came in, and shortly afterward Capt. George Doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes and went back up, and he left out and I don't know where he went.

Mr. BALL. What did Barnes do?

Mr. BOYD. Well, he helped Johnny Hicks make some paraffin casts of Oswald's hands and the right side of his face.

Mr. BALL. You were there when that happened?

Mr. BOYD. I was in and out--I was in more than I was out. I was in and out at the time that was going on.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened--what did you do after that?

Mr. BOYD. About 11:30 Mr. Sims and I made out some arrest sheets on Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald then?

Mr. BOYD. He was still up in the homicide office.

Mr. BALL. Did you question him again?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you do after that?

Mr. BOYD. Well, shortly after that Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came in, and Chief Curry asked us to take Lee Oswald back down into the assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him--if they did--if anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail.

Mr. BOYD. What did you do then?

Mr. BOYD. We went down there and stayed, I'll say, 5 minutes or so.

Mr. BALL. What happened when you stayed the 5 minutes--describe what you did?

Mr. BOYD. Well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there.

Mr. BALL. Television cameras?

Mr. BOYD. I believe there was some cameras in there--I'm not sure about the cameras--I know that there was a lot of reporters down there. They had some cameras on the outside.

Mr. BALL. What did you do with Oswald?

Mr. BOYD. We took him up there and some of them asked him some questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and put him in the jail.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald angry?

Mr. BOYD. Part of the time he was.

Mr. BALL. What was said--can you remember?

Mr. BOYD. I remember somebody hollering out back there, "Why did you shoot the President?"

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. BOYD. He said, "I didn't shoot anyone."

Mr. BALL. You took him on up there, then, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you put him in jail for the night, did you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then you went home and went to bed?

Mr. BOYD. Later on I did.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work the next day--that would be November 23.

Mr. BOYD. I think I got in around 9 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. BOYD. I arrived at 9:30 and I stayed around the office until 10:25 and Mr. Sims, Hall, and myself went up and got Lee Oswald out of jail again and brought him down to my office.

Mr. BALL. Who told you to do that?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you brought him down to your office?

Mr. BOYD. Well, Mr. Fritz and the FBI and Mr. Robert Nash, the U.S. marshal, and Mr. Kelley of Secret Service were in Captain Fritz' office at that time.

Mr. BALL. Who else was in the office?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I believe Mr. Sims and Hall, and Captain Fritz were there.

Mr. BALL. Now, Sims said he didn't stay there.

Mr. BOYD. Well, he came back out after we got him down there--that's right.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there, didn't you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you heard what was said?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us what you heard.

Mr. BOYD. Well, I know Mr. Nash asked him a question or two.

Mr. BALL. What were they?

Mr. BOYD. I don't recall what questions he asked.

Mr. BALL. Who else asked questions?

Mr. BOYD. Captain Fritz talked to him and--let me see--I don't remember if Mr. Bookhout--it seemed like Mr. Bookhout asked a question or two--I believe all of them asked him something.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what they asked?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?

Mr. BOYD. Well, let me see--no, sir; I can't recall what he said; like I say, I didn't keep notes there because I was sitting right near Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald handcuffed?

Mr. BOYD. Yes; he was handcuffed.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs in the front or in the back?

Mr. BOYD. They were in the front of him.

Mr. BALL. How long did this questioning last?

Mr. BOYD. It didn't last too awful long--about an hour or so, I believe, and we took him back to the jail at 11:30.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. BOYD. Then Mr. Sims and Hall and Mr. Dhority, who is another detective in our bureau--went out to 1026 North Beckley to recheck Oswald's room out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out there then?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a search warrant?

Mr. BOYD. Let me see--I'm not sure if I had a search warrant--I know the landlady was there and let us in there. I didn't have the search warrant myself, I'll say that. One of the other officers might have had a search warrant.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't have one?

Mr. BOYD. I didn't have one.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether you had one or not?

Mr. BOYD. I know there was a search warrant gotten but I didn't get it.

Mr. BALL. Well, there was a search warrant issued to search 1026 North Beckley the day before?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it was searched the day before--you knew that, didn't you?

Mr. BOYD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you searched it this day, what did you find?

Mr. BOYD. Nothing.

Mr. BALL. Did you take anything with you?

Mr. BOYD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You took nothing out?

Mr. BOYD. I don't believe so. I think it was pretty clean.

Mr. BALL. What kind of furnishings did you see in there?

Mr. BOYD. Well, I saw a little bed, just a little small dresser--it barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to walk between the dresser and the wall. The fact is the whole works were--wasn't any wider than that--just about that wide [indicating].