Part 17

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; about the middle of the aisle. So, about the time I reached the first step or maybe the second step, I noticed then Officer McDonald--of course, the stage was still dim, but I could tell it was McDonald. I know him. He used to work for me when I was radio patrolman, and I seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and made a contact, and they started struggling.

Mr. BALL. You say "the boy come up," what did he do?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He got up from the seat and they started fighting.

Mr. BALL. Were the lights on in the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the lights were on very dim.

Mr. BALL. They started fighting--what sort of fighting did you see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I know that I seen Oswald swing at McDonald and McDonald grab him.

Mr. BALL. Oswald swung with which arm, would you say?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say it would be his left fist, because from the way he was sitting facing me--I would say it would be his left fist.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the next thing, of course, then I started running and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on him just like that. Barrett was, I think, directly behind me in the aisle--he got there at the same time I did.

I yelled about two or three times, "Has somebody got his gun," and finally some officer--I don't know which one it was--says, "Yes; I have the gun."

Mr. BALL. Were you close enough to hear anything said by either McDonald or anyone else?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I heard Oswald say something about police brutality--Oswald yelled something about police brutality.

Mr. BALL. When McDonald first approached the man in the seats did you hear McDonald say anything?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I probably couldn't have heard this, Mr. Ball, from where I was.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear the man say anything?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The word "brutality" or "police brutality" and I think that was just all he yelled--was said while I was in the aisle walking down to the group. There was about six or seven ahold of him at that time.

Mr. BALL. Were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived?

Mr. WESTBROOK. They were putting the handcuffs on him--they had one handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many hands there.

Mr. BALL. How many officers were there?

Mr. WESTBROOK. In fact--that was one of the only humorous things about the whole thing--somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were twisting it behind Oswald's back and somebody yelled--I remember that, "My God, you got mine." I think it was just an arm that come up out of the crowd that somebody grabbed.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any police officer strike Oswald?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I did not.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, I didn't.

Mr. BALL. We had a witness here Thursday, a patron of the theatre at the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with Oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and grab it by the muzzle and strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the shotgun; did you see that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see that. It could have happened without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the struggle.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody ever tell you that story before?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I've heard that.

Mr. BALL. That's the first time you have ever heard it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That's the first time I have ever heard any shotgun was in play.

Mr. BALL. Did any of the men who were approaching Oswald or who approached Oswald have a gun in their hand?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I didn't see a gun, Mr. Ball; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. In the theatre--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any at any other time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; I had one myself at the library.

Mr. BALL. But did you enter the theatre with a gun?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir--not that I recall, but of course at that time I wasn't looking for one. You know, if I had been looking for one, I probably would have seen one, because I feel sure there must have been somebody come in with a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. Were you in uniform at that time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What happened after that, Officer Westbrook?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, after Oswald was handcuffed, and I was then--some way I got in the aisle in front of Oswald--where this was going on, and I looked right into his face, closer than you and I, about like this----

Mr. BALL. That's close to a foot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; I'd say 10 inches.

Mr. BALL. Ten inches.

Mr. WESTBROOK. And I asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so that was the only thing. Then I yelled--there was so much confusion and it was rather loud, and I yelled at the top of my voice, I said, "Get him out of here. Get him in the squad car and head straight to the city hall and notify them you are on the way." And so they immediately left with him.

Mr. BALL. Were you the senior officer there?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Possibly--I don't think there was another captain there. There was a lieutenant and then I ordered all of them to be sure and take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time.

Mr. BALL. We have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have only come up with the name of George Applin. Do you know of any others?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly might have been the only one in there at the time--the rest of them might have been working there, because I'm sure at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have patrons.

Mr. BALL. You didn't take the names of any of the patrons?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face as you looked at him, as close to him as you did in the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It seemed like there was a scratch or something--I don't remember exactly--when I looked at him--maybe a slight discoloration, or it might have been bleeding slightly.

Mr. BALL. Under the right eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I believe it would be--you--yes, sir; it would be under the right eye.

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Sergeant Warren on the right----

Mr. BALL. What is his full name?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Wilson F. Warren, and this kid on the left--I don't know--I don't know his name. Of course, I know him.

Mr. BALL. That's Sergeant Warren on the right?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is his assignment?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He is jail supervisor.

Mr. BALL. And do you know when the picture was taken?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And in this picture it looks like there was some mark on Oswald's face.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it looks like it might have been a little discoloration there--I think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit more so than it does there, but you can see some.

Mr. BALL. And also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, I don't recall anything, but that little bruise.

Mr. BALL. The bruise under the eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The bruise under the eye whenever I looked at him.

Mr. BALL. Under which eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I think it was the right eye--no, wait a minute, that would be the left eye--left eye.

Mr. BALL. You do recall that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The one that was facing me--he was facing me.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall a bruise under the left eye--when?

Mr. WESTBROOK. When I looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the group without more than that, I don't know. Just accidentally trying to straighten up, with as many officers as there were there--I don't know.

Mr. BALL. And you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Maybe I should put that this way, Mr. Ball, a bruise under the eye, because I can't be definite about which eye, but just from the picture I see, but I know I saw that bruise and due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality"--well I'm getting ahead of myself here, so I'll just quit.

Mr. BALL. Go right ahead.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as soon as Mr. McDonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on his face, I sent him on upstairs.

Mr. BALL. As soon as Oswald arrived?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; as soon as McDonald arrived. I had nothing to do with Oswald after he got to the city hall.

Mr. BALL. Did you also see a scratch on McDonald's face?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't remember which side, but it was a rather long scratch and I had him to go to the Bureau and have his picture made--there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession.

Mr. BALL. That was Officer McDonald--you had his picture taken immediately of his face?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will mark this as "Exhibit A" in your deposition.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook's Exhibit A," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. What happened after that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, from there on I had nothing to do with him--with Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him taken from the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; because I went the other way.

Mr. BALL. You went to the back?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; he went out the front and I never saw Oswald again--that's the last time I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do after that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I went back to the city hall and resumed my desk.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever find some clothing?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That was before, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Actually, I didn't find it--it was pointed out to me by either some officer that--that was while we were going over the scene in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out a jacket to me that was laying under a car and I got the jacket and told the officer to take the license number.

Mr. BALL. When did this happen? You gave me a sort of a resume of what you had done, but you omitted this incident.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I tell you what--this occurred shortly--let me think just a minute. We had been to the library and there is a little bit more conversation on the radio--I got on the radio and I asked the dispatcher about along this time, and I think this was after the library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was in charge at the scene, and he told me Sergeant Owens, and about that time we saw Sergeant Owens pass.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean by "command post"?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, the definition--the way we place a command post--maybe I can use another illustration.

If there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there should have been a central person in charge, which was Sergeant Owens, as he had said. The actual command post had not been established, but let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire.

In other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of Eighth and Seventh, and you work from there. Now, in this case we didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it, but then I got out of the car after we got back in the car at the library and finally I got out of the car over on Jefferson Street--I would say about the 300 or 400 block of East Jefferson. No; that would be West Jefferson--because 10th comes through--yes; that would be West Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. Was that before you went to the scene of the Tippit shooting?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene.

Mr. BALL. That was after you left the library?

Mr. WESTBROOK. After we left the library. I got out of the car and walked through the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. What parking lot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I don't know--it may have been a used-car lot.

Mr. BALL. On what street?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was actually on Jefferson, but the place where this jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. The alley of what?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Between Jefferson and whatever the next street is over there.

Mr. BALL. Tenth Street is the street north.

Mr. WESTBROOK. What street?

Mr. BALL. You see, the street directly north of Jefferson is 10th Street.

Mr. WESTBROOK. It would be between Jefferson and 10th Street?

Mr. BALL. And where with reference to Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, it would be toward town or it would be north of Patton--I guess it would be east of Patton.

Mr. BALL. It would be west of Patton, wouldn't it? Or would it be toward Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Toward town--if I could see a map?

Mr. BALL. Well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness].

Mr. WESTBROOK. I used to be very familiar with that.

Mr. BALL. There is a map and you can look at it and tell us.

Mr. WESTBROOK. [Examining instrument.] Now, I've got it located--here is the Texas Theatre and I'm on Jefferson now. It would be Cumberland, Storey, and Crawford--I would say it would be between Crawford and Storey.

Mr. BALL. Between Crawford and Storey on Jefferson?

Mr. WESTBROOK. On Jefferson, between 10th and Jefferson there.

Mr. BALL. That would be west of Patton.

Mr. WESTBROOK. That would be west of Patton--yes, sir; toward the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Now, you came from the library--where is that library?

Mr. WESTBROOK. The library is at Marsalis and Jefferson, sir. It must be here on Turner Plaza right here.

Mr. BALL. You drove west on Jefferson, did you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. We drove west on Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. And you got out of the car where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. We got out of the car about here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. At what street?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was between two streets, and I would say it was between this Storey and Crawford.

Mr. BALL. Why did you get out of the car at that time?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Just more or less searching--just no particular reason--just searching the area.

Mr. BALL. You were just looking around to see what you could see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; and at this time I had a shotgun--I had borrowed a shotgun from a patrolman.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you got out of the car?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking area, right along in here, and I don't know whether I am wrong on my location or not, but I think I'm right.

Mr. BALL. You walked through a car lot, did you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; and I think I came out--is that a church--there's a church right there close by.

Mr. BALL. Was there a station anywhere near there, a service station?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Oh, there could have been--yes, sir. There was either a used-car lot or a parking lot--that I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Well, I show you some pictures here.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would recognize it in the picture.

Mr. BALL. This is a picture of a Texaco station at the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. WESTBROOK. At Crawford and Jefferson?

Mr. BALL. There is a parking area behind that.

Mr. WESTBROOK. This looks more like it.

Mr. BALL. The Texaco station?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes--the Texaco station; and I think where this jacket was found was right along in here [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a parking lot, and on a parking area behind the Texaco service station at the corner of Crawford and Jefferson?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You walked through there, did you?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I walked through from Jefferson.

Mr. BALL. From Jefferson?

Mr. WESTBROOK. There is an old house--the only thing--I come down by this station there--there is an old house there and some of the officers were looking it over. They had seen somebody go in it and there was quite a few officers there so I didn't pay any further attention to it. So, I walked on, and possibly--this may be it--it appears to be it right here in the corner.

Mr. BALL. Put an arrow showing the old house.

Mr. WESTBROOK. I think this is it right here--I can't be positive, but I think that's it.

Mr. BALL. Make an arrow with a pen.

Mr. WESTBROOK. The arrow marks the point of an old house.

Mr. BALL. That you walked toward, is that right?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that old house?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, there were several officers--there were some at the back and there were some in the front, and so I just hesitated a moment and then I walked on.

Mr. BALL. You walked where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I think I come up this way.

Mr. BALL. By "this way" you mean towards the parking lot?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Towards the parking lot--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Behind the Texaco service station?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; behind the Texaco service station, and some officer, I feel sure it was an officer, I still can't be positive--pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly under the rear of one of the cars.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a car was it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That, I couldn't tell you. I told the officer to take the make and the license number.

Mr. BALL. Did you take the number yourself?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No.

Mr. BALL. What was the name of the officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I couldn't tell you that, sir.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B, which is identified as "37. Parking area behind Texaco station," and on which the witness has marked "old house."

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. B," for identification.)

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. C," for identification.)

Mr. BALL. I show you another picture which is identified as "38. Place where jacket found behind Oldsmobile, License No. NL 95."

Does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. WESTBROOK. I would say that the jacket probably, if this is the area, was probably right along in here.

Mr. BALL. Put a circle there in the general area.

(Witness complied with request of Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. The jacket was underneath a car?

Mr. WESTBROOK. But, I am guessing on this--slightly underneath a car.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean you are guessing on this--what are you guessing about?

Mr. WESTBROOK. About where the jacket was found in this picture.

Mr. BALL. You mean it was under----

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was under a car, but I don't know whether it was under the one I put it under or not.

Mr. BALL. It might have been under one or the other of the cars, you couldn't swear which?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but I think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. I offer this as Exhibit B of Captain Westbrook's deposition.

Now, you don't know the name of the officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; I probably knew his name, but we see so many things that were happening so fast.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize anything in that picture?

Mr. WESTBROOK. (Examining instrument referred to.) No; I don't.

Mr. BALL. This is No. 39, which I identify for the record.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Westbrook Exhibit No. D," "39. View of alley behind Texaco station parking lot.")

Mr. WESTBROOK. I still think this is the house here--I think this is the old house and this is the parking lot and I would say the jacket was found behind this row of cars. It seemed to me like there was some--more room from where the cars were from what is shown there--back this way.

Mr. BALL. Point out the old house.

Mr. WESTBROOK. This one.

Mr. BALL. Mark it.

(Witness marked instrument referred to as requested by Counsel Ball.)

Mr. BALL. Point out the row of cars where the jacket was found.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Well, that, I don't believe I could do----

Mr. BALL. Was it near the alley?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was near--but not this close--it don't seem to me.

Mr. BALL. Not as close as shown in the picture?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It don't seem to me--I can't remember for sure.

Mr. BALL. I offer this exhibit, Westbrook No. D.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, I did, when I left this scene, I turned this jacket over to one of the officers and I went by that church, I think, and I think that would be on 10th Street.

Mr. BALL. I show you Commission Exhibit 162, do you recognize that?

Mr. WESTBROOK. That is exactly the jacket we found.

Mr. BALL. That is the jacket you found?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you turned it over to whom?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Now, it was to this officer--that got the name.

Mr. BALL. Does your report show the name of the officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; it doesn't. When things like this happen--it was happening so fast you don't remember those things.

Mr. BALL. Then, it was after that you went over to 10th and Patton?

Mr. WESTBROOK. To 10th and Patton--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And from there you went to the theatre?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; from there we went to the theatre, and I can't remember exactly how that I got back with Bob Barrett and Stringer, but anyway, we got together again--probably at 10th and Patton.

Mr. BALL. Were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was brought in?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't have been.

Mr. BALL. But it was brought to your office?

Mr. WESTBROOK. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. And it was marked by some officer?

Mr. WESTBROOK. It was marked by Officer Jerry Hill and a couple or three more, and when they come in with the gun, I just went on down and told Captain Fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up after it. I didn't take it down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. He possibly could have--he was in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the gun unloaded?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir; I didn't see it unloaded. When I saw it, the gun was laying on Mr. McGee's desk and the shells were out of it.

Mr. BALL. Did you look at any of the shells?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you look the gun over?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions?

Mr. ELY. Yes; I have one. Captain, you mentioned that you had left orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it?

Mr. WESTBROOK. No; possibly Lieutenant Cunningham will know, but I don't know who has the list.

Mr. ELY. That's all.

Mr. WESTBROOK. And I'm sorry that I'm so vague on names, but it's just--the only reason that I knew Sergeant Stringer, I think, that day he worked with me.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any questions?

Mr. STERN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I think that's all. Thank you very much, captain.

Mr. WESTBROOK. Thank you, sir, Mr. Ball, it has been a pleasure.

TESTIMONY OF ELMER L. BOYD

The testimony of Elmer L. Boyd was taken at 11 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U. S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOYD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. BOYD. Elmer L. Boyd.

Mr. BALL. And what is your occupation?

Mr. BOYD. I am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. BALL. You received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't you?

Mr. BOYD. I think they received one over at the office and they notified me.

Mr. BALL. And you have been told the purpose of this investigation is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. BOYD. Yes, sir.