Part 13

Mr. OWENS. That's true.

Mr. ELY. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route.

Mr. OWENS. According to this map--it doesn't show all the things on there--it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him right to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ELY. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; I do.

Mr. ELY. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which you were patroling?

Mr. OWENS. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time.

Mr. ELY. In which numbered area is that located?

Mr. OWENS. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I heard all of this--so many squads getting called to report there, then I went.

Mr. ELY. You headed toward the downtown area yourself?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself.

Mr. ELY. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there either?

Mr. OWENS. That's right--that's true.

Mr. ELY. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which numbered area on this map he was assigned to?

Mr. OWENS. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96.

Mr. ELY. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.)

Mr. OWENS. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston.

Mr. ELY. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he?

Mr. OWENS. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the same general area which covers these districts in here.

Mr. ELY. That would be districts 82 and 85?

Mr. OWENS. No--81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79--that's that sergeant's district.

Mr. ELY. All right, thank you very much, sergeant.

Mr. OWENS. I don't know of anything else--as I say, I couldn't remember where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling a gun like that if it was the suspect's.

Mr. ELY. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much.

Mr. OWENS. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH

The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Sit down.

Mr. BALL. State your name, please.

Mr. SMITH. William Arthur Smith.

Mr. BALL. And where do you live?

Mr. SMITH. 328-1/2 East Davis.

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. SMITH. Twenty.

Mr. BALL. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?

Mr. SMITH. My mother.

Mr. BALL. At this address?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school.

Mr. SMITH. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason Chapel.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. SMITH. Three months into the 12th grade.

Mr. BALL. Three months into the 12th grade?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. SMITH. Been working ever since, most of the time.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do? Have you done?

Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box.

Mr. BALL. Beg your pardon?

Mr. SMITH. Corrugated box.

Mr. BALL. That is where you are working now?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; working at a metal shop.

Mr. BALL. Any metal shop?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been in trouble with the police?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble did you get in?

Mr. SMITH. Auto theft.

Mr. BALL. You're on probation now, aren't you?

Mr. SMITH. Two years.

Mr. BALL. Two years? Ever have any other trouble?

Mr. SMITH. Tickets.

Mr. BALL. Just tickets? Traffic tickets?

Mr. SMITH. Two right now.

Mr. BALL. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Didn't have a job?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where did you spend the day that day?

Mr. SMITH. 505 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Why were you there?

Mr. SMITH. Visiting a friend.

Mr. BALL. What is his name?

Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. BALL. When did you go over there that day?

Mr. SMITH. In the morning. In the morning.

Mr. BALL. In the morning?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. SMITH. In the evening.

Mr. BALL. So, you spent the whole day there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day that you noticed?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.

Mr. BALL. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?

Mr. SMITH. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.

Mr. BALL. Who was with you?

Mr. SMITH. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. BALL. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot?

Mr. SMITH. One block.

Mr. BALL. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Policeman was shot in the 400 block?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were in the 500 block?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What called your attention to this incident?

Mr. SMITH. I heard some shots.

Mr. BALL. And what? You looked down that way?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

Mr. BALL. Did you see his face, or just his back?

Mr. SMITH. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him before he ran?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Saw the side of his face?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he ran in what direction?

Mr. SMITH. West.

Mr. BALL. Did you follow him?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did you see?

Mr. SMITH. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.

Mr. BALL. And did a crowd gather around there?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SMITH. About 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you give your name to the police?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Why?

Mr. SMITH. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.

Mr. BALL. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who?

Mr. SMITH. This boy I ran around with.

Mr. BALL. What's his name?

Mr. SMITH. James Markham.

Mr. BALL. Is he the son of Helen Markham?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to her?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; she talks to me.

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham talked to you?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?

Mr. SMITH. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I a----

Mr. BALL. Did the police come out and see you?

Mr. SMITH. The FBI.

Mr. BALL. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald on television?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. On the night of the shooting?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?

Mr. SMITH. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on television----

Mr. SMITH. Had lighter hair.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Smith--than the man you saw running away?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that right?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?

Mr. SMITH. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.

Mr. BALL. How did the hair appear on television?

Mr. SMITH. Looked blond.

Mr. BALL. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By whom?

Mr. SMITH. FBI agent.

Mr. BALL. What was the color of the hair in the picture?

Mr. SMITH. Brown.

Mr. BALL. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the appearance of the man in the picture?

Mr. SMITH. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.

Mr. BALL. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away?

Mr. SMITH. What I saw of him; yes.

Mr. BALL. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?

Mr. SMITH. No.

Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house----

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where you were standing?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?

Mr. SMITH. He had on dark pants--just a minute. He had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a coat----

Mr. SMITH. This looks like it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.

Mr. BALL. That is the jacket he had on?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?

Mr. SMITH. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. BALL. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mr. SMITH. Ever what that means.

Mr. BALL. That means you don't have to sign it.

Mr. SMITH. I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it?

Mr. SMITH. Yes; I will sign it.

Mr. BALL. Okay. Do you have a telephone number?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and sign it.

I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR.

The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we--raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. APPLIN. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the record.

Mr. APPLIN. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. APPLIN. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.

Mr. BALL. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, that is about 68 miles?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you are entitled to get compensation for your transportation?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your expenses. You came in when? This morning?

Mr. APPLIN. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in here.

Mr. BALL. Came into Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And----

Mr. APPLIN. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car stalled on me about three or four blocks over.

Mr. BALL. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done since then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived there pretty near all my life.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. APPLIN. Twenty-two.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to school?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.

Mr. BALL. And how far did you go? Finished junior high?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.

Mr. BALL. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff.

Mr. BALL. Live with your mother now?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.

Mr. BALL. Your mother and father?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.

Mr. BALL. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. BALL. What kind of trouble?

Mr. APPLIN. Burglary.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mr. APPLIN. In 1963.

Mr. BALL. Did you do any time?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.

Mr. BALL. That is the only trouble you have ever had?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, for--except for minor traffic violations.

Mr. BALL. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe I was.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing here?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell it?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I have got one of their checks--check stubs here in my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].

Mr. BALL. What were you doing in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Working.

Mr. BALL. Working here in Dallas?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and painter and front-end loader.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to be off duty that day?

Mr. APPLIN. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.

Mr. BALL. For 2 days?

Mr. APPLIN. For 2 days.

Mr. BALL. What did you do? Go to the picture show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What time of day did you go there?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, actually, I went to--I was over in Oak Cliff, around about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened.

Mr. BALL. You went in the show when it opened?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Paid your way?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the middle of the chairs.

Mr. BALL. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of seats?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, about--seemed quite a little while since I thought about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.

Mr. BALL. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that showing of that picture that you remember?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture.

Mr. BALL. Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. BALL. Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. APPLIN. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. BALL. From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.

Mr. BALL. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. APPLIN. Where you enter it.

Mr. BALL. From your rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.

Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. BALL. What else did you see?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.

Mr. BALL. You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front to find out what was happened--was happened--happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.

Mr BALL. Did you ask him?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mr. APPLIN. Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

Mr. BALL. Started back up the aisle?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Towards you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And what did you see him do?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the front, asked them to stand up and----

Mr. BALL. Did he search them?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.

Mr. BALL. Did he search you?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting.

Mr. BALL. Where was he sitting?

Mr. APPLIN. I--he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.

Mr. BALL. You mean from the rear of the theatre?

Mr. APPLIN. From the rear.

Mr. BALL. And how far over from the aisle?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting about two or three seats.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do?

Mr. APPLIN. He--started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, please?" And he stood up.

Mr. BALL. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "Stand up"?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from the back, rear.

Mr. BALL. Were you at the rear?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.

Mr. BALL. You were at the rear of the show?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows down from me.

Mr. BALL. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And going to ask the officer what was going on?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was----

Mr. APPLIN. Apprehended.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear the officer, what he said?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer say?

Mr. APPLIN. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please."

Mr. BALL. What did the man say?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, he just stood up.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time.

Mr. BALL. And what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. With his left or right?

Mr. APPLIN. Right fist.

Mr. BALL. Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there was another--I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

Mr. BALL. Then did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It came into view before any of the other officers got there.

Mr. BALL. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who pulled a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was pointed out that way [indicating].

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he stand up?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; along about----

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess about his hips.

Mr. BALL. Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. APPLIN. He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN. The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. BALL. Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. BALL. How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BALL. Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Mr. BALL. What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. BALL. You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns.

Mr. BALL. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol.

Mr. BALL. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came down?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him.

Mr. BALL. How many of them?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, there was about five officers, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any officers strike him?

Mr. APPLIN. I seen one strike him with a shotgun.

Mr. BALL. How did he do it?

Mr. APPLIN. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and swung and hit him in the back.

Mr. BALL. With what?

Mr. APPLIN. With the butt end of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Looked like a hard blow?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; it--I guess it was. You could--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And he struck Oswald where?

Mr. APPLIN. In the back.

Mr. BALL. What part of the back?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, somewheres.

Mr. BALL. With the butt end of a shotgun?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I do not believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun?

Mr. APPLIN. I believe about four.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN. Uhuh?

Mr. BALL. Did you see them handcuff the man?

Mr. APPLIN. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing.

Mr. BALL. What did you see them do after the struggle?

Mr. APPLIN. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of the aisle.

Mr. BALL. With the man?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And then when they went out, did they come out through the doors?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind me.

Mr. BALL. In behind you?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And went on out?

Mr. APPLIN. Yes, sir.