Part 10

Mr. HILL. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.

As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the identification.

Mr. BELIN. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street?

Mr. HILL. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any Beckley Street address for the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. What else did the suspect say, if anything?

Mr. HILL. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion.

He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he didn't have anything to be ashamed of.

Mr. BELIN. When the comment was made about frying, did any police officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or something like that?

Do you remember anything like that being said?

Mr. HILL. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I don't recall who said it.

But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that?

Did you hear him say anything like that?

Mr. HILL. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on in the car.

At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the gun click.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that happened in the car?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall of specific detail.

There was quite a bit of excitement.

Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all?

Mr. HILL. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, was how quiet he did keep.

His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said he wanted his attorney.

Mr. BELIN. He had said this in the theatre?

Mr. HILL. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his rights.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station?

Mr. HILL. I do not recall.

I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station.

Mr. BELIN. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley?

Mr. HILL. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were you with the suspect at all times?

Mr. HILL. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never closed.

Mr. BELIN. The door was never closed?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the man, suspect, say anything at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight.

Mr. BELIN. How far was the suspect from you at this time?

Mr. HILL. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 more feet to the door.

Mr. BELIN. About how far would that be?

Mr. HILL. About 6 feet.

Mr. BELIN. How close was the other officer to you?

Mr. HILL. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all?

Mr. HILL. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word.

Mr. BELIN. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, would you have been in a position to hear that statement made?

Mr. HILL. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, but I can't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was anything else that he could have said except for during that period, would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North Beckley?

Mr. HILL. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly hearsay, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned?

Mr. HILL. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 or 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?

Mr. HILL. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with Oswald in the interrogation room?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had with the prisoner?

Mr. HILL. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room.

Mr. BELIN. Over what period of time span would that have been that he was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway there?

Mr. HILL. Probably 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his address and he refused, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally answered that question, did he?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have any other report that you made at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there.

Mr. BELIN. Well, apart from that, anything?

Mr. HILL. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.

Mr. BELIN. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.

Mr. HILL. Can I look at it?

Mr. BELIN. You bet you can.

[Handing to witness.]

Mr. HILL. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.

Mr. BELIN. You are referring to a report dated what?

Mr. HILL. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I was off that day.

And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the International Building, and we took a coffee break somewhere around 11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time.

Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. HILL. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not?

Mr. HILL. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a while. In the interim, I had been on--normally when I was on a rotating schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about 2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was working in personnel.

And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am staying home."

Mr. BELIN. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting?

Mr. HILL. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before this.

Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November 22?

What did you find when you got there?

Mr. HILL. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office.

If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building.

Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and took pictures of us going to homicide.

We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into the homicide office.

At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by name.

But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open as much as possible.

And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to get through there.

Mr. BELIN. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other types of news also.

Mr. BELIN. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear the hall or clear the floor at all?

Mr. HILL. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out.

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there?

Mr. HILL. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities.

I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions they did, and if they didn't they would walk out.

There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all.

But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing at that time what they were asked to do.

What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather crowded, I will make that statement.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one.

What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or was one that you found difficult to see?

Mr. HILL. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time.

However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that had been handled a few times.

Mr. BELIN. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" and the other one is "Q-177," is that it?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw----

Mr. HILL. Q-80 would be the one.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a couple of days ago, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Friday afternoon?

Mr. HILL. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, is that correct?

Mr. HILL. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, that was canceled?

Mr. HILL. That left.

Mr. BELIN. I left at 5:30--and now it is past 7 o'clock--and I told you I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition.

At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we go into any details at that time?

Mr. HILL. The only specifics we discussed were this.

You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was there, I didn't see it.

Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I don't recall what statement it was.

But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall hearing that. I don't remember what it was.

Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine.

Mr. BELIN. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at that time?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. BELIN. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to the stress of time.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in from the Texas Theatre?

Mr. HILL. As to any other possible weapon?

Mr. BELIN. Yes; or ammunition?

Mr. HILL. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone else searching him after he was placed under arrest.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at this time?

Mr. HILL. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police department here, and you particularly.

You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of mine was canceled.

Mr. HILL. They were both on duty, so I don't mind.

Mr. BELIN. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your reading.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. HILL. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and sign it?

If you will just let me know when, I will be here.

Mr. BELIN. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very much.

Mr. HILL. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know.

TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE

The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you stand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. State your name.

Mr. POE. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. POE. 1716 Cascade Street.

Mr. BALL. And your occupation?

Mr. POE. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. All right, what is your rank in the department?

Mr. POE. Patrolman.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been in the department?

Mr. POE. Nine years and one month.

Mr. BALL. And where were you born?

Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. POE. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood.

Mr. BALL. How far through school did you go?

Mr. POE. Graduated from high school.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. Then went into the Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. POE. Three years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic.

Mr. BALL. How long did you do that work?

Mr. POE. About 2 years.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out of the Service.

Mr. BALL. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction worker?

Mr. POE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?

Mr. POE. I joined the police force.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do on the police force?

Mr. POE. Patrol work.

Mr. BALL. Patrolman?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In a car?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In a radio car?

Mr. POE. Yes, sir.