Part 9

When we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the emergency room where this was taking place, I went to the door and asked one of those--after turning over my ventilation, my respiration job to another one of my department--and asked him what is the proper time to declare one dead. That is, I am not a Catholic and I was not sure of the time for the last rites. As I remember now, he said, "The time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that medical testimony might say that death was declared." There would be a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time they would still have the final rites.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they then have the final rites after the time he was declared dead medically?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, just a minute now--I suspect that was hazy to me that day--I'm not sure, it's still hazy. This was a very personal--on the part of the very anguished occasion, and Mrs. Kennedy had come back into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that they should not be there. It was real intrusion even after they put forth such efforts at resuscitation and I'm not sure now whether the priests came in while I was still doing the resuscitative procedure, respiration at least, and while Dr. Clark was still doing the other. My memory is that we had stopped. I was still present, however, and that's the reason I'm not clear, because I hadn't left the room and I was still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of facts which I will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your view or opinion.

Assume, first of all, if you will, that President Kennedy had a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, measuring 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile was a 6.5 mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second and approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, and that after entering the President's body at the point indicated, the missile traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner I have just described?

Dr. JENKINS. As far as I know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. What has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, having been Chief of the Anesthesia Service here for this 16 years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so I see gunshot wounds many times a week. I'm afraid I couldn't hazard a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and I'm afraid probably if I knew, I would not like to admit to this number, but I do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of the wounds. My main interest is what physiological changes that they have caused to the patient that I am to anesthetize or a member of the department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular system, respiratory, and neurological, and so I am aware of the wounds of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and activities during the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds?

Dr. JENKINS. No, I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any representative of the Federal Government at any time prior to today?

Dr. JENKINS. Oh, there was a man whose name I don't remember now, who showed what looked like the proper credentials from the FBI, who came to ask only whether the report I had submitted to Mr. Price for the hospital record or for Mr. Price's record constituted all the reports I had. That's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that the only written record you have of your participation in the treatment of the President?

Dr. JENKINS. Oh, I submitted one to the Dean of the Medical School, essentially the same, and a very little more. I don't think you have that. I don't know whether you want it or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I would like to see it.

Dr. JENKINS. It is essentially the same report--however--can I ask you something off of the record here?

Mr. SPECTER. Sure.

(Discussion between Counsel Specter and the witness, Dr. Jenkins, off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. The record will show that we have been off the record on a couple of matters which I am going to now put on the record, but I will ask the court reporter to identify this as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36.

(Instrument referred to marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jenkins' Exhibit No. 36, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you, Dr. Jenkins, for the record to identify this as a report which you submitted to Dean Gill.

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And is this in conjunction with the report you submitted to Mr. Price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on your participation in the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes; that's right.

Mr. SPECTER. One of the comments we were just discussing off the record--I would like to put on the record, Dr. Jenkins, is the question as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in your opinion, absent the head wound. What would your view of that be?

Dr. JENKINS. Well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course?

Mr. SPECTER. It did not.

Dr. JENKINS. In that case I would not expect this wound to have been fatal.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your view, Dr. Jenkins, as to whether the wounds which you observed were caused by one or two bullets?

Dr. JENKINS. I felt quite sure at the time that there must have been two bullets--two missiles.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Jenkins, what was your reason for that?

Dr. JENKINS. Because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as I interpreted it being exploded, I would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and I also thought it was a wound of exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with the wounds received by President Kennedy?

Dr. JENKINS. I guess so. The first day I had thought because of his pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his chest cavity, I mean, and from what you say now, I know it did not go that way. I thought it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds been changed in any way?

Dr. JENKINS. No; one other. I asked you a little bit ago if there was a wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the hairline, because there was blood there and I thought there might have been a wound there (indicating).

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left temporal area?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. This was my only other question about it.

Mr. SPECTER. So, that those two points are the only ones on which your opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. On the President's injuries?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the conversation you had with that Secret Service Agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the Federal Government prior to today about this subject?

Dr. JENKINS. As far as I remember--I don't believe so.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes, as far as I remember--I have had no formal interviews. I have been asked--there have been some people calling on the phone. As you know, there were many calls from various sources all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we followed.

Mr. SPECTER. But the only one you can identify as being from the Federal Government is the one you have already related from the Secret Service?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you and I have a very brief conversation before the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on the record?

Dr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there anything which you think of to add that you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the President's Commission in its inquiry?

Dr. JENKINS. I believe not, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, thank you very much, Dr. Jenkins.

Dr. JENKINS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DR. RONALD COY JONES

The testimony of Dr. Ronald Coy Jones was taken at 10:20 a.m., on March 24, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show at this point that Dr. Ronald Jones has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition for the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy.

Dr. Jones, the purpose of the President's Commission is to investigate all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment of President Kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify concerning your knowledge of that treatment.

With that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the President's Commission during the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. JONES. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Dr. JONES. Ronald Coy Jones.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession, sir?

Dr. JONES. General Surgery--resident physician.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you duly licensed by the State of Texas to practice medicine?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly your educational background?

Dr. JONES. I graduated--I went to undergraduate school at the University of Arkansas from 1950 to 1953, in pre-med. From 1953 through 1957, I went to medical school and graduated from the University of Tennessee in Memphis, and in 1957 through 1958 I took an internship in Los Angeles County General Hospital.

From there I went to the University of Oklahoma and took a 2-year general practice residency, 1 year, the first year, entailing a year of internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery and its subspecialties, which was approved by the American Board of Surgeons for 1 year of surgical training, and from 1960 until the present time I have taken an additional 4 years of general surgery at Parkland, and have served as Chief Resident of Surgery.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of President Kennedy on November 22, 1963?

Dr. JONES. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case?

Dr. JONES. I was eating lunch with Dr. Perry and I heard the operator page Dr. Tom Shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time I answered the phone and the operator told me that the President had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room.

I turned around and immediately notified Miss Audrey Bell, who is the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made for immediate surgery, and Dr. M. T. Jenkins, who is the Chief of the Anesthesiology Department. From there I went across the room and notified Dr. Perry of the shooting and we both went together to the emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the President had been brought in.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at the emergency room?

Dr. JONES. It was, I would say, around 23 or 25 minutes until 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived?

Dr. JONES. Dr. James Carrico, and possibly Dr. Richard Dulany, and I'm not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we arrived. I do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any nurse present at that time?

Dr. JONES. The head nurse in the emergency room was present and----

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know her name?

Dr. JONES. It's left my mind right now--I know her.

Mr. SPECTER. Could that be Miss Henchliffe?

Dr. JONES. She was there, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Bowron?

Dr. JONES. No--just the--

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Nelson?

Dr. JONES. Nelson.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present then, other than those whom you have already mentioned at the time you arrived?

Dr. JONES. There were three nurses there--Mrs. Nelson, Miss Henchliffe and Miss Bowron.

Mr. SPECTER. And were any other doctors present when you arrived?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Carrico was the only doctor other than possibly Dr. Dulany, and I do know Dr. Carrico was there when I arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Dr. Don Curtis there when you arrived?

Dr. JONES. I didn't see him.

Mr. SPECTER. And who arrived with you, if you recall?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Perry.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe the President's condition to be upon your arrival?

Dr. JONES. He appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and Dr. Carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency measures to try to restore the airway.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean an effort by the President?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration?

Dr. JONES. No, these apparently were as Dr. Carrico saw the President was attempting to respire on his own, however, I did not personally see this in the brief seconds that I stood there before I went ahead and started work.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the lay definition for agonal respiration?

Dr. JONES. These are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular type respirations.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you continue now to describe what you observed to be the President's condition?

Dr. JONES. We felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted immediately, which was done by Dr. Carrico. We felt that this was not adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that he was getting adequate oxygen.

Mr. SPECTER. What was done with respect to applying oxygen to the President then?

Dr. JONES. Well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with Dr. Jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from the machine.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything else with respect to the President's condition at that time?

Dr. JONES. You mean as far as wounds--that he had?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wounds?

Dr. JONES. As we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch, and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that?

Dr. JONES. Well, Dr. Perry and I were the two that were there at this time observing.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Dr. Perry make any comment about the nature of the wound at that time? Either wound?

Dr. JONES. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound?

Dr. JONES. There was large defect in the back side of the head as the President lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that you observed in the throat?

Dr. JONES. The wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. There appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount of powder present. There appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. There appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any lump in the throat area?

Dr. JONES. No; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of the wound which you have described of the throat?

Dr. JONES. Not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount that was around the head--not too much.

Mr. SPECTER. What further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy?

Dr. JONES. Well, as Dr. Perry started the tracheotomy, I started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an I.V. so that we could give I.V. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. We made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and I.V. fluids were started immediately and as I was doing this, Dr. Perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that Dr. Baxter came in and went ahead to assist Dr. Perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since I was to the left of the President, I went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that tube fully inserted, Doctor?

Dr. JONES. I felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", Dr. Jones?

Dr. JONES. The tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since I could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the President. Dr. Baxter was over there helping Dr. Perry on that side, as well as Dr. Paul Peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by Dr. Baxter and Dr. Peters on the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Then what other treatment, if any, was afforded President Kennedy?

Dr. JONES. After the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood was started--I believe that the President was also administered some hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no evidence of a heartbeat. Closed cardiac massage was then first begun by Dr. Perry and then I believe that after about 5 minutes no significant or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead.

Mr. SPECTER. What history did you refer to of President Kennedy's adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. JONES. As I recall, there had been in news that the President had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that he possibly had Addison's disease. We had no documented evidence that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed situation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you obtain that history from Mrs. Kennedy, or any other person on the scene?

Dr. JONES. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You just relied upon what had been occurring in the news?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What would that reaction cause, if anything, if the President had no adrenal insufficiency?

Dr. JONES. This would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any other doctors arrive during the time this treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already mentioned?

Dr. JONES. Several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--Dr. McClelland appeared shortly after Dr. Baxter, within a matter of just a very few minutes, as well as Dr. Kemp Clark, who is head of neurosurgery here.

Mr. SPECTER. Any other doctors?

Dr. JONES. Dr. Jenkins was there and I think these are primarily the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the President, although there were some other doctors in the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Jones, I now hand you a report which purports to bear your signature, labeled "Summary of treatment of the President," dated November 23, 1963, which I shall now ask the Court Reporter to mark as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1.

(Instrument mentioned marked by the Reporter as Dr. Jones' Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if this in fact is your signature?

Dr. JONES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And I ask you if this was the report which you submitted concerning your participation of the treatment of President Kennedy?

Dr. JONES. Yes; it was.

Mr. SPECTER. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. JONES. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. JONES. Yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side.