Part 63

Mr. BELIN. When he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go clear to the corner and turn off?

Mr. BENAVIDES. There is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. He kitty-cornered across the yard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. In other words, he didn't go all the way on the sidewalk. He just cut across the yard.

Mr. BELIN. Where was he when you saw him throwing shells? Had he already started across the yard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across.

Mr. BELIN. Now you saw him throw two shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You saw where he threw the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell.

Mr. BELIN. A chrome looking shell?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how long did it take you to locate the shells once you started looking for them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Just a minute. I mean not very long at all. Just walked directly to them.

Mr. BELIN. You saw where he had thrown them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. One of them went down inside of a bush, and the other one was by the bush.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him after he turned the corner of the house?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he threw any--you said you heard three shots. Do you know whether or not he threw other shells there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Did you look at all there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I didn't bother to look there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see him when he cut across the yard? Did he go between the bushes to get to the sidewalk on Patton Street, or do you know?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Between the house and the bush; yes, sir. He had to cut across the yard, because there was a big bush on the corner there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of about the man after you saw him? What was he wearing? What did he look like?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was kind of, well, just about your size.

Mr. BELIN. About my size? I am standing up.

Mr. BENAVIDES. You are about 5' 10"?

Mr. BELIN. I am between 5' 10" and 5' 11". Closer to 5' 11", I believe.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.

Mr. BELIN. Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

Mr. BELIN. What color was the trousers?

Mr. BENAVIDES. They were dark.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was dark in color, but I don't remember exactly what color.

Mr. BELIN. Was he average weight, slender, or heavy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say he was average weight.

Mr. BELIN. What color hair did he have?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, dark. I mean not dark.

Mr. BELIN. Black hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No. Not black or brown, just kind of a----

Mr. BELIN. My color hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit curlier.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him that looked like me.

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, that is all.

Mr. BELIN. What about his skin? Was he fair complexioned or dark complexioned?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He wasn't dark.

Mr. BELIN. Average complexion?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; a little bit darker than average.

Mr. BELIN. My complexion?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I wouldn't say that any more. I would say he is about your complexion, sir. Of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit ruddier than mine.

Mr. BELIN. His skin looked ruddier than mine?

I might say for the record, that I was not in Dallas on November 22, 1963.

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, just your size.

Mr. BELIN. Did he look like me?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; your face, not your face, but just your size.

Mr. BELIN. Okay, well, I thank you. I was flying from St. Louis to Des Moines, Iowa, at about this time.

Is there anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about 2 weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look flat in back.

Mr. BELIN. When you put these two shells that you found in this cigarette package, what did you do with them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I gave them to an officer.

Mr. BELIN. That came out to the scene shortly after?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the name of the officer?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir; I didn't even ask him. I just told him that this was the shells that he had fired, and I handed them to him. Seemed like he was a young guy, maybe 24.

Mr. BELIN. How old would you say the man that you saw with gun was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I figured he was around 25.

Mr. BELIN. When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I turned around and went back and we returned to work.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened? Did the officers ever get in touch with you?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Later on that evening, about 4 o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, Mr. Callaway asked me--I had told them that I had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and I was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time.

Then I found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the President. At the time I didn't know the President was dead or he had been shot. So I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen, and they asked me if I could identify him, and I said I don't think I could.

At this time I was sure, I wasn't sure that I could or not. I wasn't going to say I could identify and go down and couldn't have.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN. You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?

Mr. BENAVIDES. From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. The thing lasted about a month, I believe, it seemed like.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I showed--I believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there.

Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was going on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; sure didn't. There was people that asked me what happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and I said just the policeman got shot.

Mr. BELIN. You talked to Ted Callaway, did you?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; afterward. You know, I told your--I told him, he asked me when we went, when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or something of that sort.

Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him, and I said no.

Mr. BELIN. Why did you say "No"?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of the policeman's hand, and I didn't think he should bother to go like that. So he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. This cab?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. There was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk on Patton Street. I mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this cab had pulled in there by the stop sign.

Mr. BELIN. Which way was the cab headed on Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed north on Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on the south side of 10th or the north side of 10th when it was parked there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the south side of 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Was it on the east side of Patton or the west?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It would be on the east side of Patton.

Mr. BELIN. How close to the sidewalk on East 10th would the front part of the cab have been?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The front part of the cab was, I would say, maybe 5 or 6 feet from the corner.

Mr. BELIN. From the corner?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be up on the curb.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. And so Ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came to a halt and he asked me which way he went. I told him he went down Patton Street toward the office, and come to find out later Ted had already seen him go by there.

Mr. BELIN. Did Ted tell you later he had seen him go by?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen him go by.

Mr. BELIN. Would this be Sam Guinyard?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police station to try to identify the man?

Mr. BENAVIDES. After that--After I left that evening, I took off kind of early because I was so shookup that I couldn't work, and so when I say early, I usually work to 9 or 10 or 11 o'clock, at night. So I'd taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down there. I think it was the next day, or the day after.

Well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified him as the guy that came by the carlot.

Mr. BELIN. Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and identified him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me.

Mr. BELIN. Ted worked at Dootch Motors at the same time?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What does he do there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. General manager.

Mr. BELIN. Used-car place?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. I am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you can identify it and I will be back in 1 minute.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Okay.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you a jacket which has been marked as "Commission's Exhibit 163," and ask you to state whether this bears any similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would say this looks just like it. Looks like he had laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that.

Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Commission's Exhibit 150," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I think the shirt looked darker than that.

Mr. BELIN. The shirt was darker?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on there. That was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it?

Mr. BELIN. Yes; anything else you can think of.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Not offhand, except later on, I don't know if I seen it on television but I believe I seen it on television where they was arresting him, the policeman from the theater. But it didn't seem like he had a jacket on there.

Mr. BELIN. When he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket on? Now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.

I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled over, and I don't know if he came back there or not.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That would be all. I think if anybody had seen anything really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly in front of me. And whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you think something is wrong. At least that is what comes to my mind.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is all I can think of right now that I can remember.

Mr. BELIN. You and I never met before today, did we, except that one day when we were around to see Ted Callaway and he introduced you at Dootch Motors and we chatted for 3 or 4 minutes there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; you and two other men.

Mr. BELIN. Today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as to whether I asked you before the court reporter was able to get here to just relate to me what happened, or did I start questioning you or try to tell you things as I saw them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. So; you just asked me what happened and I described to you what happened.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you said before the court reporter got here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter started taking your testimony?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe now only in the change of time, or I imagine I added a little bit since she was here.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything that would be at variance with what you told me before the court reporter got here?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, I don't understand.

Mr. BELIN. What I mean is, is there anything that you said before the court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court reporter got here?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Anything you have said in front of the court reporter that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or different in anyway from what you told me before?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Different in wording but----

Mr. BELIN. But are the facts different?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I don't believe the facts are different.

Mr. BELIN. Now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. Do you want to waive it or not?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I would like to read it.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Maybe I could add something I didn't add.

Mr. BELIN. All right, I will ask the court reporter to try and get in touch with you.

Mr. BENAVIDES. 3112 June Drive.

Mr. BELIN. She can reach you at Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Dootch Motors.

Mr. BELIN. What is the address?

Mr. BENAVIDES. 501 East Jefferson.

Mr. BELIN. You did get notice of the taking of this deposition here today?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You are here voluntarily appearing in front of the Commission?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we surely appreciate all of the cooperation you have shown here, sir, and if there is anything else that you think is important, we would appreciate your getting in touch with us.

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is the reason I wanted to read this, in case I might have left out something.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please thank whoever is the general manager at Dootch Motors for letting you come here and appear before us?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is Mr. Harris.

Mr. BELIN. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS

The testimony of Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis was taken at 9 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name for the court reporter?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis.

Mr. BELIN. You are known as Mrs. Charles Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Your first name is Virginia?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. Athens.

Mr. BELIN. In Texas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sixteen.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you lived in Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, about 6 months. It was after the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember when the President was shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. On November 22.

Mr. BELIN. About how long after that did you move to Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was about 2 weeks after the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Davis, how long have you been married?

Mrs. DAVIS. Seven months.

Mr. BELIN. Any children?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. The time you moved to Athens would have been sometime in December of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Prior to that time, had you always lived in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, after I got married we moved to Dallas and we lived there ever since.

Mr. BELIN. When you got married, you moved to Dallas. Before you got married, where did you live?

Mrs. DAVIS. Palestine.

Mr. BELIN. Is that in Texas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were you raised there?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I was raised in Athens.

Mr. BELIN. You were raised in Athens. Did you go to school in Athens?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I went to school in Palestine.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you get through school?

Mrs. DAVIS. The ninth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Have you ever been employed at all?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Davis, where were you living when you were living in Dallas in November of 1963?

Mrs. DAVIS. 400 East 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. Is that 400 East 10th?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what cross-street runs at 10th there?

Mrs. DAVIS. Patton.

Mr. BELIN. 10th and Patton?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of house did you live in? Was it a brick or frame home?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a frame apartment house.

Mr. BELIN. A frame apartment house. You and your husband lived in one apartment?

Mrs. DAVIS. And my sister and her husband lived in another one.

Mr. BELIN. There were two apartments there?

Mrs. DAVIS. On the bottom floor.

Mr. BELIN. What is your sister's name?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Barbara Jeanette Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her husband's name is?

Mrs. DAVIS. Troy Lee Davis.

Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to the afternoon of November 22, do you remember anything out of the ordinary that happened on that date?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, the boy that was known as Lee Harvey Oswald shot J. D. Tippit.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, did you see him shoot J. D. Tippit?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; we didn't see. Yes; we heard the shot. He had already shot him.

Mr. BELIN. You say you heard a shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard the shot?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was over at my sister-in-law's.

Mr. BELIN. Her apartment?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where in her apartment were you?

Mrs. DAVIS. I was in the living room.

Mr. BELIN. You were in the living room?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. We was lying down.

Mr. BELIN. You were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or what?

Mrs. DAVIS. It is a bed against the wall and a sofa.

Mr. BELIN. Who was lying down?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Jeanette was lying on the bed. I was lying on the couch, and Annette and James Lee were lying on the other bed.

Mr. BELIN. Are these other people children of your sister's?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. About how old are those children?

Mrs. DAVIS. James will be 6 and then Annette is 5.

Mr. BELIN. Now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard a shot.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. Then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door.

Mr. BELIN. Well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure that you heard two?

Mrs. DAVIS. We just heard two.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, Mrs. Markham was trying to say----

Mr. BELIN. Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know what her first name is?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir. I just know her by Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Had you ever known her before?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How did you know it was Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, it said in the paper that it was Mrs. Markham, and my sister-in-law said it was Mrs. Markham. My sister-in-law knows Mrs. Markham.

Mr. BELIN. Now you heard the shots. You heard, you say, the second shot and then what did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. We was already up. We ran to the door.

Mr. BELIN. By we, who do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. Jeanette and I.

Mr. BELIN. You went to which door?

Mrs. DAVIS. The front door.

Mr. BELIN. That would be the front of the house facing East 10th Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got to the door?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mrs. Markham was standing at the tree.

Mr. BELIN. If we can picture the street intersection, was she standing in the middle of the street or on the sidewalk?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was on the sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Your house would be located at the southeast corner of the intersection, is that where it is, or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Would she be standing on a corner that would be right across 10th Street but on the same side of Patton, or across Would it be catty-cornered or would it be across 10th Street but on the other side? Maybe we can draw it here on a little paper.

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember it too good.

Mr. BELIN. Now I have drawn on a piece of paper here a street intersection and this is Patton and here is 400 East 10th, which would be your house. Do you want to mark here where you think you saw Mrs. Markham?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, she was standing on the sidewalk right here. Do you want to put an "X" there?

Mr. BELIN. Please put an "X" there.

Mrs. DAVIS. (Marks "X".)

Mr. BELIN. I'm going to call that Virginia Davis Deposition, Exhibit 1. What was Mrs. Markham saying, or did you hear her say anything?

Mrs. DAVIS. We heard her say "He shot him. He is dead. Call the police."

Mr. BELIN. Was she saying this in a soft or loud voice?

Mrs. DAVIS. She was screaming it.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you saw a boy. Do you know how old he was?

Mrs. DAVIS. He didn't look like he was over 20.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color hair he had?

Mrs. DAVIS. Let's see, the best I recall, he had sort of light brown.

Mr. BELIN. Light brown hair?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was he tall or short or average height?

Mrs. DAVIS. He was about average height.

Mr. BELIN. Fat, thin, or average weight?

Mrs. DAVIS. Slim.

Mr. BELIN. Pardon?

Mrs. DAVIS. Slim.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. He had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color his trousers were?

Mrs. DAVIS. I think they were black. Brown jacket and trousers.

Mr. BELIN. The trousers were black?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't recall that.

Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was open.