Part 62

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald before the Friday when the police came out?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you had, of course, thought his name was what?

Mrs. ROBERTS. O. H. Lee.

Mr. BALL. He had paid you, had he?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He always paid on time.

Mr. BALL. And you made a record of it?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, after these police officers came out of there, did you see a gun holster in his room after they had searched it?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--there was one of them little outfits--a little holster and they taken it out and where they got it--I don't know, but it was in the room. They had it in their hands, one of the men was holding it.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No; I hadn't.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you something about his habits again--how early would he leave his room in the morning?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would leave around 7 o'clock, maybe between 6:30 and 7.

Mr. BALL. And what time would he come back?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, he would get home about maybe 5--something around 5 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. And with the exception of the weekends that he spent away, was he home every night or was he out at night?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He was always home at night--he never went out.

Mr. BALL. Now, on one holiday that occurred on Monday--he didn't come in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, he didn't come in that Monday.

Mr. BALL. Was that the only Monday he didn't come in?

Mrs. ROBERTS. That was the only Monday he didn't come in.

Mr. BALL. He paid on Monday?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He paid on Monday and that was the only time he didn't pay on Monday and he wasn't there.

Mr. BALL. He paid on what day of the week that week?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Tuesday--when he came in home.

Mr. BALL. But the weekend before November 22d, he was there all weekend, was he?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, I also will ask you whether or not you ever heard of a fellow by the name of Ruby--did you ever hear of a fellow by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever heard his name before he was accused of shooting Oswald?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No.

Mr. BALL. You never even heard his name?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I never heard his name.

Mr. BALL. And had never seen him?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did a police car pass the house there and honked?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. He came in the house.

Mr. BALL. When he came in the house?

Mrs. ROBERTS. When he came in the house and went to his room, you know how the sidewalk runs?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Right direct in front of that door--there was a police car stopped and honked. I had worked for some policemen and sometimes they come by and tell me something that maybe their wives would want me to know, and I thought it was them, and I just glanced out and saw the number, and I said, "Oh, that's not their car," for I knew their car.

Mr. BALL. You mean, it was not the car of the policemen you knew?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It wasn't the police car I knew, because their number was 170 and it wasn't 170 and I ignored it.

Mr. BALL. And who was in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I didn't pay any attention to it after I noticed it wasn't them--I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Where was it parked?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was parked in front of the house.

Mr. BALL. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. ROBERTS. And then they just eased on--the way it is--it was the third house off of Zangs and they just went on around the corner that way.

Mr. BALL. Went around what corner?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Went around the corner off of Beckley on Zangs.

Mr. BALL. Going which way--toward town or away from town?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Toward town.

Dr. GOLDBERG. Which way was the car facing?

Mrs. ROBERTS. It was facing north.

Dr. GOLDBERG. Towards Zangs?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Towards Zangs--for I was the third house right off of Zangs on Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Did this police car stop directly in front of your house?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--it stopped directly in front of my house and it just "tip-tip" and that's the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnely would do when they stopped, and I went to the door and looked and saw it wasn't their number.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald when this happened?

Mrs. ROBERTS. In his room.

Mr. BALL. It was after he had come in his room?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Had that police car ever stopped there before?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't know--I don't remember ever seeing it.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen it since?

Mrs. ROBERTS. No--I didn't pay that much attention--I just saw it wasn't the police car that I knew and had worked for so, I forgot about it. I seen it at the time, but I don't remember now what it was.

Mr. BALL. Did you report the number of the car to anyone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think I did--I'm not sure, because I--at that particular time I remembered it.

Mr. BALL. You remembered the number of the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I think it was--106, it seems to me like it was 106, but I do know what theirs was--it was 170 and it wasn't their car.

Mr. BALL. It was not 170?

Mrs. ROBERTS. The people I worked for was 170.

Mr. BALL. Did you report that number to anyone, did you report this incident to anyone?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, I told the FBI and the Secret Service both when they was out there.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell them the number of the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. I'm not sure--I believe I did--I'm not sure. I think I did because--there was so much happened then until my brains was in a whirl.

Mr. BALL. On the 29th of November, Special Agents Will Griffin and James Kennedy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed you and you told them that "after Oswald had entered his room about 1 p.m. on November 22, 1963, you looked out the front window and saw police car No. 207."

Mrs. ROBERTS. No. 107.

Mr. BALL. Is that the number?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes--I remembered it. I don't know where I got that 106--207. Anyway, I knew it wasn't 170.

Mr. BALL. And you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, and it was in a black car. It wasn't an accident squad car at all.

Mr. BALL. Were there two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. And one of the officers sounded the horn?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Just kind of a "tit-tit"--twice.

Mr. BALL. And then drove on to Beckley toward Zangs Boulevard, is that right?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes. I thought there was a number, but I couldn't remember it but I did know the number of their car--I could tell that. I want you to understand that I have been put through the third degree and it's hard to remember.

Mr. BALL. Are there any other questions?

Dr. GOLDBERG. No, that's all.

Mr. BALL. Now, Mrs. Roberts, this deposition will be written up and you can read it if you want to and you can sign it, or you can waive the signature.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, you know, I can't see too good how to read. I'm completely blind in my right eye.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive your signature? And then you won't have to come back down here.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, okay.

Mr. BALL. All right, you waive it then?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes.

Do you want me to sign it now?

Mr. BALL. No; we couldn't, because this young lady has to write it up and it will be a couple of weeks before it will be ready.

Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, will you want me to come back or how?

Mr. BALL. Well, you can waive your signature and you won't have to come back to do that--do you want to do that?

Mrs. ROBERTS. Okay, it will be all right.

Mr. BALL. All right. The Secret Service will take you home now.

Mrs. ROBERTS. All right.

Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming.

Mrs. ROBERTS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF DOMINGO BENAVIDES

The testimony of Domingo Benavides was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BELIN. You want to raise your hand and stand up and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I do.

Mr. BELIN. Will you state your name for our reporter, please?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Domingo Benavides.

Mr. BELIN. How old are you, sir?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I am 27, April the 9th. I am now 26.

Mr. BELIN. Single or married?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Married.

Mr. BELIN. Family?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Two children and one expected sometime this month.

Mr. BELIN. Where are you from originally?

Mr. BENAVIDES. From Dallas.

Mr. BELIN. You were born in Dallas?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Go to school in Dallas?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you go through school?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Tenth grade.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do when you got out of school?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I just went to work.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you work first?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Merchants Delivery.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was helper on a truck and part-time mechanic; mechanic helper.

Mr. BELIN. How long did you work for them?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine about 2 years.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I went into the Navy.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do in the Navy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yeoman and seaman.

Mr. BELIN. How long were you in the Navy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Three years.

Mr. BELIN. Honorable discharge?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You did not have an honorable discharge?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got out of the Navy?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I returned to work for Merchants Delivery.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, just from there I jumped around from roofing companies. I started in roofing then and I worked for Donald Bost, which is Town & Country Roofing Co., for on up until about 4 years ago, I guess. Then I just started mechanicing.

Mr. BELIN. You started to become an automobile mechanic?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. For whom did you work then?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I worked in Martinez, Calif., for Donley Chevrolet & Cadillac Co., and then later on I was transferred to their paint and body shop, and then I came back to Dallas and I worked for Mr. Harris.

Mr. BELIN. For whom?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Mr. Harris, at Dootch Motors.

Mr. BELIN. Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Are you still working for them now? That is, as a mechanic?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How long have you been working for Dootch now?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, off and on about 3 years. During this time I went back to Merchants Delivery and worked there and then I worked for Southern Delivery, too.

Mr. BELIN. Now when was the last time you went back to Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It's been a year ago.

Mr. BELIN. You have been working for them ever since?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Taking you back to November 22, 1963, anything unusual happen that day?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On the 22d?

Mr. BELIN. 22d of November 1963?

Mr. BENAVIDES. This would be embarrassing. Was that the day of the Assassination of the President?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was thinking it was the 24th. Well, nothing except it seemed like a pretty nice day.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what day of the week it was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the day that the President was assassinated?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that he was assassinated in Dallas?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, yes; I remember this.

Mr. BELIN. That day you had lunch, were you at work that day?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. You had lunch?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I had lunch. And then this man had stalled this car in the middle of the street and asked me if I would fix it. Something was wrong with the carburetor, or pump that had broken in it, and I went around to the parts house to get the parts for it.

Mr. BELIN. Where had the man's car stopped in the middle of the street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well, on Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. Patton and what?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Between Jefferson and 10th.

Mr. BELIN. A car stopped in the middle of the street between----

Mr. BENAVIDES. Jefferson and Tenth.

Mr. BELIN. About what time of day was this?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I imagine it was about 1 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. You imagine it was about 1 o'clock?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was after lunch. I had already eaten. It was after I had lunch and I had eaten around 12, somewhere around 12 o'clock.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do? You were going to get a carburetor part, so what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was in a rush and I ran off and forgot the number of the carburetor.

Mr. BELIN. You forgot the number of the carburetor?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I circled back. I left down the alley.

Mr. BELIN. Which alley is this?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The one directly between 10th and Patton and Jefferson Street.

Mr. BELIN. It runs parallel to 10th and Jefferson and it runs, the alley would run east of Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. All right. The alley runs right behind Dootch Motors there?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What kind of vehicle were you driving?

Mr. BENAVIDES. 1958 pickup truck Chevrolet.

Mr. BELIN. All right, what route did you take? Were you headed east or west in the alley?

Mr. BENAVIDES. East.

Mr. BELIN. To what?

Mr. BENAVIDES. To Denver street.

Mr. BELIN. Which is the next street over from Patton?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. First street east of Patton, then where?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I turned right, which is east on 10th. Wait. Denver would be north, I imagine. I turned from the alley north on Denver.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. And east on 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Then you turned east on----

Mr. BENAVIDES. The parts house sets on Marsalis and 10th.

Mr. BELIN. Marsalis and 10th?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; so I got almost up to the parts house and I thought about the number, so I was going to go back and get the number off the carburetor. I turned in a drive and turned around and started back.

Mr. BELIN. On what street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. On East 10th?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I was going west on 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I got almost up to the corner when I seen the policeman. I first seen the car stop up there.

Mr. BELIN. Now, you say you got almost to a corner. What corner was that?

Mr. BENAVIDES. At Denver and 10th.

Mr. BELIN. You almost got up to Denver and 10th heading west on 10th Street when you saw something?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw this police car.

Mr. BELIN. You saw a police car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the police car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was sitting about 4 or 5 feet from the curb and down about 2 houses from the corner of Patton Street.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Was it between Patton and Denver?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. On what side of East 10th, north or south?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On the south side.

Mr. BELIN. What direction was it headed?

Mr. BENAVIDES. It was headed east.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see then?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I then pulled on up and I seen this officer standing by the door. The door was open to the car, and I was pretty close to him, and I seen Oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the officer as he was getting out of the car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I seen as he was, well, he had his hand on the door and kind of in a hurry to get out, it seemed like.

Mr. BELIN. Had he already gotten out of the car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He had already gotten around.

Mr. BELIN. Where did you see the other man?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The other man was standing to the right side of the car, riders side of the car, and was standing right in front of the windshield on the right front fender. And then I heard the shot. Actually I wasn't looking for anything like that, so I heard the shot, and I just turned into the curb. Looked around to miss a car, I think.

And then I pulled up to the curb, hitting the curb, and I ducked down, and then I heard two more shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear all told?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. You heard three shots?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when your vehicle stopped?

Mr. BENAVIDES. About 15 foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car.

Mr. BELIN. Would you have been a car length to the east or a car length to the west of the police car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. East of the front side of it.

Mr. BELIN. So your vehicle wouldn't have quite gotten up to where the police car was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; it didn't.

Mr. BELIN. How fast were you going when you watched the policeman getting out of his car?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Oh, I imagine not maybe 25 miles an hour. I never did pay much attention to it.

Mr. BELIN. You say you stopped the car right away? Your vehicle, I mean?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir. I just didn't exactly stop because--I just pulled it into the curb.

Mr. BELIN. Then you say you heard a shot and you then ducked?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. No; I heard the shot before I pulled in.

Mr. BELIN. Oh, I see. You heard the shot and pulled in and then what?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I ducked down.

Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I heard the other two shots and I looked up and the policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see the policeman as he fell?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. What else did you see?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

Mr. BELIN. You saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On Patton Street. He was going south.

Mr. BELIN. He was going south on Patton Street?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes; do you know Dootch Motors?

Mr. BELIN. Do I know Dootch Motors?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Was he on the east or the west side of Patton as he was going?

Mr. BENAVIDES. On the east side.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him going on the east?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. How far did you see him go down Patton?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Just as far as the house would let the view go. In other words, as soon as he went past the house, I couldn't see him any more.

Mr. BELIN. Now, the first time that you saw him, what was his position?

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing, the first time I saw him. The man that shot him?

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Mr. BENAVIDES. He was standing like I say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car.

Mr. BELIN. He was not moving when you saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; he wasn't moving then.

Mr. BELIN. All right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. After that, I set there for just a few minutes to kind of, I thought he went in back of the house or something. At the time, I thought maybe he might have lived in there and I didn't want to get out and rush right up. He might start shooting again.

That is when I got out of the truck and walked over to the policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. I guess I was really scared.

Mr. BELIN. Did the policeman say anything?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The policeman, I believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing.

Mr. BELIN. Where was the policeman as he fell, as you saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I saw him as he was falling. The door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. I would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall.

Mr. BELIN. Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?

Mr. BENAVIDES. The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then I don't know if I opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, I went in and pulled the radio and I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and I didn't get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on 10th Street. I couldn't remember where it was at at the time.

So I looked up and I seen this number and I said 410 East 10th Street.

Mr. BELIN. You saw a number on the house then?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mr. BENAVIDES. Then he started to--then I don't know what he said; but I put the radio back. I mean, the microphone back up, and this other guy was standing there, so I got up out of the car, and I don't know, I wasn't sure if he heard me, and the other guy sat down in the car.

Mr. BELIN. There was another passerby that stopped?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Who was he, do you know?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I couldn't tell you. I don't know who he was.

Mr. BELIN. Was he driving a car or walking?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I don't know. He was just standing there whenever I looked up. He was standing at the door of the car, and I don't know what he said to the officer or the phone, but the officer told him to keep the line clear, or something, and stay off the phone, or something like that. That he already knew about it.

So then I turned and walked off. I never did assist him after that at all.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. BENAVIDES. At the time I walked out, I guess I was scared, so I started across the street--alley between the two houses to my mother's house, and I got in the yard and I said I'd better go back, or just caught myself until I got over there, I guess, so I went back around there.

Mr. BELIN. When you went back, what did you do?

First of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right now?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Well. I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did you see the man empty his gun?

Mr. BENAVIDES. That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?

Mr. BENAVIDES. No; I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also?

Mr. BENAVIDES. Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.

Mr. BELIN. You saw him?

Mr. BENAVIDES. I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.

Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you now, I would like to have you relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now.

Mr. BENAVIDES. As I saw him, I really--I mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired, he had just turned. He was just turning away.

In other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just turned away to his left, and then he started. There was a big tree, and it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the left there and went on down Patton Street.