Part 53

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch.

Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You saw the President's car pass?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything after that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. Where--what was the source of the sound?

Mr. MOLINA. Sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression I got. Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I just stood there, everybody was running and I didn't know what to do actually, because what could I do. I was just shocked.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, this fellow come to me--Mr. Williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the President, somebody, I don't know who it was. There was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "What can anybody gain by that"; he just shook his head and I just stood there and shook my head. I didn't want to think what was happening, you know, but I wanted to find out so I went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and I was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "Well, the President has been shot and I think they shot somebody else", something like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?

Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.

Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?

Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.

Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.

Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go in?

Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before you saw Truly go in?

Mr. MOLINA. No.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe, I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Mr. BALL. You left the building that day about what time and went home?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, it must have been around, I would say, I would say it was about 2, maybe a little before that, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen Lee Oswald?

Mr. MOLINA. I had seen him in the building, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever speak to him?

Mr. MOLINA. No; I never spoke to him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at all on November 22d?

Mr. MOLINA. I never did see him.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any strangers in the building on that day November 22d?

Mr. MOLINA. No; like I stated before, I came in at--to work at 7 in the morning because I had a key and I was on the second floor all the time, never did leave except maybe to go to the restroom, something like that. Then I ate my lunch, took my lunch and ate it and went downstairs about 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Okay, thanks very much, Mr. Molina. This will be written up for your signature if you wish; you can come in and sign it or you can waive your signature, whichever you wish. If you wish to sign it, this young lady will notify you when it is typed and you can come in, read it, and sign it.

Mr. MOLINA. I just wanted to state in the record that I want to deny any accusations if there is any doubt in anybody's mind.

Mr. BALL. No; there is nobody I ever heard has accused you of anything.

Mr. MOLINA. I know there's a fella that I talk with that belongs to the or had worked with the FBI that knows my position in this thing.

Mr. BALL. I never heard anybody accuse you of any wrongdoing in connection with this matter.

Mr. MOLINA. In fact, Bill Lowery worked with the FBI.

Mr. BALL. You don't have to worry about that; no one is accusing you of anything.

Mr. MOLINA. Except the local people here.

Mr. BALL. Do you want to sign it or do you want to waive your signature; how do you feel about it? It's your option; you can do either way.

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I would like to.

Mr. BALL. See it and sign it?

Mr. MOLINA. See it and sign it.

Mr. BALL. She will notify you then. She will tell you when to come in.

Mr. MOLINA. Thanks very much.

TESTIMONY OF JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY

The testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name and address for the record?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Jack Edwin Dougherty.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. 1827 South Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. How old are you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Forty.

Mr. BALL. Where were you born?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Sunset High School.

Mr. BALL. You went through Sunset High School?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What year did you get out of high school? About?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, 1937.

Mr. BALL. 1937?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you do after that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.

Mr. BALL. How long were you in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do during the service--during your period in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to----

Mr. BALL. Did you have any active service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever leave the United States during the War?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there--Seymour, Ind.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go from there in the service?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.

Mr. BALL. You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. Or to the South Seas?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You stayed in this country all the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You never had any?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. None at all?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after you got out of the Army?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.

Mr. BALL. And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. September 17, 1940.

Mr. BALL. 1940 what?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be----

Mr. BALL. That would be 1952, wouldn't it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--that's 1952.

Mr. BALL. 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; that's right, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. You didn't work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, no.

Mr. BALL. You stayed at home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Have you ever been married?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. And you still live with your father and mother?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh--shipping clerk.

Mr. BALL. And what kind of work is that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the--they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that--that's it.

Mr. BALL. Did you know a fellow named Lee Harvey Oswald that worked at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I'll be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I don't believe nobody knew him too well. You might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. He just stayed all to hisself, and I'll be frank with you, I just flat didn't know him.

Mr. BALL. Now, on November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I got there--it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.

Mr. BALL. Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you might say, I have a little--extra chores to do.

Mr. BALL. You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.

Mr. BALL. That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you did get there about 7 that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where--up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.

Mr. BALL. What is the ADT?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's that--I don't know too much about it--it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.

Mr. BALL. You mean the pressure, do you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that a fire-alarm system?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--you could call it that.

Mr. BALL. Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.

Mr. BALL. Anything else you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; I believe that just about covers it.

Mr. BALL. What time do you usually go to lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, usually about 12 o'clock or 12 noon.

Mr. BALL. Do you carry your lunch most of the time from home?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where do you usually eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they have got what they call a domino room in there and I usually eat it in there.

Mr. BALL. You usually eat your lunch in the domino room?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And how long do you take for lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, from 12 to 12:45.

Mr. BALL. Forty-five minutes?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you always take a full hour?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I usually do.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember the day of November 22, 1963; you do, don't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The day that the President was shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you went to work that day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--let's see--it was 12:30.

Mr. BALL. What time did you go to work that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, that particular morning--let's see, we didn't go back.

Mr. BALL. No; I mean, what time did you go to work the first thing in the morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was 8 o'clock when we were actually started to work.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to the building?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. At a quarter to 7.

Mr. BALL. At a quarter to 7?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You told the FBI officers that you got there about 7 o'clock.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I mean, inside the building.

Mr. BALL. Inside the building?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when I got inside the building it was 7 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You parked your car?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't have a car--I have to ride the bus.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come to work that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--when he first come into the door.

Mr. BALL. When he came in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him come in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; I saw him when he first come in the door--yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he have anything in his hands or arms?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, not that I could see of.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day was that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. That was about 8 o'clock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What door did he come in?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, he came in the back door.

Mr. BALL. Where were you then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was--sitting on top of the wrapping table.

Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember that you gave a statement to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and to a man by the name of Ellington, or a Mr. Anderton, the day after--the 23d of November?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I talked to so many of them--it is kind of hard to remember.

Mr. BALL. And there is a statement that they took when they talked to you and in it you said, "I recall vaguely, having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I did--that morning.

Mr. BALL. That seems to be dated the 22d day of November 1963.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. The full statement is, "I am employed by the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, as an order filler, and reside at 1827 South Marsalis Street, Dallas, Tex."

Did you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "I started to work today, 11-22-63, at about 7 a.m. o'clock."

Did you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye--that's the reason why I said it that way.

Mr. BALL. Did he come in with anybody?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No.

Mr. BALL. He was alone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; he was alone.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall him having anything in his hand?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.

Mr. BALL. Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I believe I can--yes, sir--I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your memory is definite on that, is it?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I would say that--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or, are you guessing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. You saw him come in the door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. The back door on the first floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was in the back door.

Mr. BALL. Now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? That back door would be the first floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And it opens where?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. On the back dock--on the back dock side over there.

Mr. BALL. That would be what direction from the first floor--what wall of the first floor--north?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, let's see, to be frank with you--I don't know which one it would be.

Mr. BALL. Is there only one back door?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; there is only one back door.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him again that morning?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; just one more time.

Mr. BALL. Where was that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That was on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. On the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. About what time of day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It was about 11 o'clock--that was the last time I saw him.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing up there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, as far as I could tell, he was getting some stock--as far as I could tell.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was getting some stock also.

Mr. BALL. And were there some other workmen up there at the time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. Well, do you remember Shelley, Dan Arce, Bonnie Williams, Bill Lovelady, and Charlie Givens who were working up there that morning--laying floor on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes; they were laying floor--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And were they there at the time you were there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, yes, sir; they were there--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the same time you saw Oswald?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; just about that time.

Mr. BALL. And how long were you on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, just long enough to get some stock.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went to the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went to the fifth floor to get some stock also on the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Then, just about that time--I thought I heard----

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you go to lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I went back downstairs to eat lunch--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was 12 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to the FBI men, I've got a statement here dated the 19th of December 1963, a statement from Special Agent William O. Johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at approximately 8 a.m. when he, Oswald, arrived.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. That you saw Oswald again at approximately 11 a.m. on the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. But you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is that the truth?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And it also says, this report from Mr. Johnson, states that you told him that just prior to 12 noon you and five other men were working on the sixth floor. Were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes; we were working on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. What were you doing?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I was getting some stock off of the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. You weren't helping the men lay floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. To what floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. The first floor.

Mr. BALL. How did you get down there?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--used the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down alone or with someone?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went down alone.

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. In the domino room.

Mr. BALL. Now, what time did you go back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, at 12:30.

Mr. BALL. Did you know that the President was going to pass in a motorcade that noon?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, they said something about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you intend to go out and watch him?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded--there was no way in the world I could get out there.

Mr. BALL. Did you take a look at it--did you go out and take a look at it, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well--no, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you finished your lunch, didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And did you stay there any length of time after you finished your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No, sir--just a short length of time.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, then, I went back to work.

Mr. BALL. And where did you go to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let me see--oh, up to the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to the sixth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Oh, it was about 12:40--it was about 12:40.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any shots before that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes--I heard one--it sounded like a backfire.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard that shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I was on the fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL. Yes; and then what happened?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away----

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Before--before I ate my lunch.

Mr. BALL. You heard shots before you ate your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Let's see--yes, I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to work that day?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right.

Mr. BALL. And that you went back to work?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. BALL. And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. That's right--it sounded like a car backfiring.

Mr. BALL. And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. No; that was the only one I heard.

Mr. BALL. You only heard one?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And where did it sound like it came from?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.

Mr. BALL. From overhead?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Elevator.

Mr. BALL. You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this side--the one on this side is the one I took.

Mr. BALL. Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't mean much when it's written down.

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Well, I know it.

Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. East side.

Mr. BALL. Is it the one that you punch a button on?

Mr. DOUGHERTY. Yes, sir.