Part 52

Mr. ARCE. We all eat lunch together in this little domino room. We play dominoes and eat our lunch. He might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. He didn't stay in there too long. I guess he didn't like crowds.

Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, what time did you go to work?

Mr. ARCE. We start at eight but I believe I was a little late.

Mr. BALL. You went to work on what floor?

Mr. ARCE. Sixth.

Mr. BALL. Did you work there all morning?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get off work?

Mr. ARCE. That day?

Mr. BALL. At noon for your lunch hour or your lunch period?

Mr. ARCE. What time we left down for lunch?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. ARCE. We usually leave down about 5 to 12, something around there.

Mr. BALL. How did you go down stairs?

Mr. ARCE. By the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you have sort of a race that day, do you remember?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Tell me about it.

Mr. ARCE. Well, me and Bonnie Ray and, I am not too sure, I believe it was Billy Lovelady, were on the same elevator, and Charles Givens and the other guys were on the other one and we were racing down.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator were you on?

Mr. ARCE. We have two of them that go up, the same deal and I was on the one facing east. There's an east and a west elevator and I was in the one facing east.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee Oswald or hear him speak on the way down?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, he was up there and I believe someone asked if he wanted to go down.

Mr. BALL. He was there--on what floor?

Mr. ARCE. That's what I'm not too sure; I believe he was on five or the sixth floor. I am not too sure but we were going down and I believe he was on the fifth; I am not too sure.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear?

Mr. ARCE. He said "You all close the door on the elevator, I will be down," or somethin'. I didn't pay too much attention. He said to leave the elevator come down.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him around there after that?

Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't see him around after that.

Mr. BALL. Did you have lunch?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. ARCE. In that little domino room there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go after that?

Mr. ARCE. I went outside.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. ARCE. With Billy Lovelady and Mr. Shelley and I was out there with Junior.

Mr. BALL. Who is Junior?

Mr. ARCE. I don't know his real name; I just know him by Junior.

Mr. BALL. Was Bonnie Ray Williams ever out there with you?

Mr. ARCE. No, he stayed upstairs with Hank. Junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and I guess he went upstairs.

Mr. BALL. What about Givens?

Mr. ARCE. He was down there with Shields, I guess--I mean Melvin--no, Carl, that's who he was with.

Mr. BALL. What about Jack Dougherty?

Mr. ARCE. He was on all floors; I couldn't tell you where he was.

Mr. BALL. Was he outside?

Mr. ARCE. No, he was eating lunch; me and Jack Dougherty, same time.

Mr. BALL. Dougherty ate his lunch?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he go outdoors after lunch?

Mr. ARCE. I don't know; I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. Who went outdoors with you?

Mr. ARCE. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady; Carl was out there and Charles Givens.

Mr. BALL. You stood there how long before the parade came along?

Mr. ARCE. I am not too sure; it was about 10 minutes, somewhere around there. I am not too sure about that.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I did. I seen him when he turned the corner and when he went down that underpass thing and I heard them shots and I couldn't see anything. There was a lot of people.

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?

Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.

Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?

Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view and still couldn't see.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. How many?

Mr. ARCE. Three.

Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When you were on the grass, were you south where you were? Where were you with reference to the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. ARCE. I was down to the west side, a little more to the west.

Mr. BALL. Were you west of the building itself?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were not in front of the building?

Mr. ARCE. I was directly in front, but then I walked a few steps down to the west side.

Mr. BALL. Where were you with reference to the west wall of the building?

Mr. ARCE. Oh, I was way far from it. I was across the street, I mean.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean "across the street"?

Mr. ARCE. Well, there's a little sidewalk right across the street and there's some grass and things up there and that's where I was at. I couldn't tell you exactly where I was, see, it's hard to explain.

Mr. BALL. Well, you say you were not in front of the building?

Mr. ARCE. Well, not directly, not in front; I was across the street.

Mr. BALL. And were you west of the west wall of the building?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I was, well the building----

Mr. BALL. I understand but you were to the south of the building. You had to be south of the building, didn't you?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I was south but I was, well, I guess you could say I was in front of the building but not directly in front, well, I don't know how to explain it.

Mr. BALL. Who was standing with you?

Mr. ARCE. Well, I walked away from the other guys because they were all in front of the building and I went across the street to get a closer view.

Mr. BALL. You walked which direction?

Mr. ARCE. I just--right across the street.

Mr. BALL. Right across Elm Street?

Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. The part of Elm that dead ends there?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You crossed that and went on to the grassy part?

Mr. ARCE. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. Now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what direction?

Mr. ARCE. From the tracks on the west deal.

Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. ARCE. Three.

Mr. BALL. Did you look back at the building?

Mr. ARCE. No, I didn't think they came from there. I just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and I just ran along with them.

Mr. BALL. Did you go up to the railroad tracks?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anything up there?

Mr. ARCE. No, and they told us go back there and I went back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?

Mr. ARCE. Back inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in there?

Mr. ARCE. Oh, about 15 minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out.

Mr. BALL. Then you made out your statement?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir; to the Police Department.

Mr. BALL. Well, just I minute, let's see----

Mr. ARCE. I helped this old man, this gentleman in there.

Mr. BALL. You saw an old man?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. ARCE. Right in front of the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. ARCE. Right, you know, it was before it happened; I don't know.

Mr. BALL. How long before the President went by?

Mr. ARCE. I don't know. I think it was about 10 minutes, some place around there, 15 minutes; I'm not too sure.

Mr. BALL. What about the old man; what was noticeable about him?

Mr. ARCE. Well, he said he had kidney trouble, could I direct him to the men's room and I said I would and I helped him up the steps and walked him into the restroom and I opened the door for him and that's when I went inside to eat my lunch and then I seen him walk out.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him talk to anyone in there?

Mr. ARCE. No; he went straight out.

Mr. BALL. Was he in a car?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah, after I went outside I seen him driving out in a black car.

Mr. BALL. He drove away?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. ARCE. No, never seen him again.

Mr. BALL. Just I minute, I want to show you a picture. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 369. I show you this picture. See this man in this picture?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Recognize him?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Just to identify it clearly, the man on the steps--well, you see the man on the steps, do you not?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He is a white man, isn't he?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you see his picture just above the picture of two colored people, is that correct; would you describe it like that?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am not going to mark this purposely because other witnesses have to see it.

Mr. ARCE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you say that is Billy Lovelady?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, that is Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Now, there is only one face that is clearly shown within the entrance-way of the Texas School Book Depository Building, isn't there?

Mr. ARCE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And only one face of a person who is standing on the steps of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. And that one man you see there----

Mr. ARCE. Yes, that's Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. When you came to work that morning, Danny----

Mr. ARCE. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. Was Oswald there at the time?

Mr. ARCE. I believe I seen him once that morning on the first floor, some place around there. I'm not too sure.

Mr. BALL. But did you see him go into the building?

Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have in his possession any paper bag or sack that day?

Mr. ARCE. No, sir; I didn't see him.

Mr. BALL. This will be written up and you will have an opportunity to read it and sign it if you wish or you can waive signature. Which do you wish? If you waive signature, you don't have to come back. Which do you prefer? Do either one.

Mr. ARCE. I don't understand too well.

Mr. BALL. She writes this up. Then if you wish, you can come in, read it over and, if there are any changes to be made, you make them and you swear to it before this young lady, who is a notary public, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission.

Mr. ARCE. I guess you all could send it on to the Commission.

Mr. BALL. And you waive signature?

Mr. ARCE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Thanks very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF JOE R. MOLINA

The testimony of Joe R. Molina was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Would you rise and raise your right hand, Mr. Molina?

(Witness complying.)

Mr. BALL. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOLINA. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. MOLINA. Joe R. Molina.

Mr. BALL. What is your address?

Mr. MOLINA. 4306 Brown.

Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself; where were you born?

Mr. MOLINA. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. What was your education?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I went to Crozier Tech High School and I finished after I came back from the service and at that time my intention was to go to college but I got married and instead went to business college. Then later on after attending about 5 months business college, I had to find a job because my wife was expecting a baby, consequently, I started working on-the-job training at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. About what date?

Mr. MOLINA. I started working in February of 1947.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been working there?

Mr. MOLINA. 16 years.

Mr. BALL. 16 years?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you wrote the Commission a letter asking to testify, didn't you?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to do that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I called in. I didn't know whether I was going to be called or not and they told me, you know, that I should write a letter and ask the Commission, you know. (Letter marked Molina Exhibit A.)

Mr. BALL. You wanted to be heard, is that right, before the Commission?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you have something particularly you wanted to tell us?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, on November 23d following the assassination, I was paid a visit by the local police department at 1:30 in the morning and they sort of wanted to tie me up with this case in some way or another and they thought that I was implicated.

Mr. BALL. What makes you think they thought you were implicated?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, they were looking for something. I don't know what it was they were looking for in the house.

Mr. BALL. They came to your house here in Dallas?

Mr. MOLINA. That's right, woke up my wife and children; scared my wife half to death.

Mr. BALL. Did they search the house?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did they have a search warrant?

Mr. MOLINA. I don't know whether they did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did they tell you what they were looking for?

Mr. MOLINA. No.

Mr. BALL. Then what happened?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me questions whether I knew different persons that belong to the G.I. Forum----

Mr. BALL. To what?

Mr. MOLINA. G.I. Forum, this club I belonged to here in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that?

Mr. MOLINA. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling].

Mr. BALL. G.I. F-o-r-u-m [spelling] in Dallas?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was it that asked you that?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, I think it was Mr. Garroway did most of the questioning and police Lieutenant Revill, I believe--yeah, that was his name.

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you?

Mr. MOLINA. They asked me if I knew certain persons that had come into the forum when it was first initiated and if I was acquainted with them and if I associated with them, so forth and so on. I said my activities were limited to the club. I didn't have any social, you know, I wasn't intimate with them but merely a club that was started. I was asked by my pastor to go see about this particular club which I did and consequently, the club met at the church auditorium after it was founded and one of the parish priests was a chaplain.

Mr. BALL. Was it a Catholic, Roman Catholic organization?

Mr. MOLINA. The G.I. Forum?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. MOLINA. No; the forum is a veterans' club.

Mr. BALL. What else happened?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, after the police came, they didn't know whether--they were undecided what to do, whether they would take me in for questioning or not and so they decided evidently, since I told them--they asked me if they could take a look around. I said "Sure, I don't have anything to hide, look around". They looked around and did a lot of searching and my wife started to get back in bed. She didn't know that was going on. She thought they just want to question me and they told her she had to get out of bed and go into the living room and the kids were in the back room. I only have two bedrooms and the kids were sleeping out there. They woke up the kids; they were looking in their room, so they started questioning the kids, too. They started to ask me questions and ask the kids about it. In other words, to corroborate our statements. I didn't know at the time they were doing it but later on found out. They couldn't find anything. I knew they wouldn't find anything. I didn't know what they were looking for in the first place. They decided to bring me down to the Dallas Police Department for questioning.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the police department?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, they asked me if I would go down the next morning and I said yes, I would go down the next morning. I would rather go down the next morning than now. It was already past 2, so the next morning my wife drove me down. I got there about 11. My wife drove me down and I got there about 10:30. The place was full of television people and reporters swarming all over the place and they told me to wait in the room there and then I went into Chief Gannaway's office or whatever his name is. He said I was supposed to be questioned by Mr. Fritz down there but that he wanted to talk to me after they questioned me up there because they wanted to know more about the G.I. Forum so I said "I will come back when they get through questioning me." So I went up there and they told me to wait in an office and so I waited there for about 30, 40 minutes and, oh, must have been longer than that, they finally questioned me and they put me in a room and there was a man from the FBI or Secret Service, I don't recall which one it was. He was sitting on my right and there was a fellow from the Dallas Police Department taking a statement and a fellow from the FBI introduced himself, said I'm so and so, show me his badge and so forth. The other fellow didn't say who he was or anything, just sat there and so then they told me to wait there in that room and I did. I was there for about 45 minutes and then the fellow came back from the FBI, said "My God, are you still in here?" I said "Yes," he said "How long you been here?" Here it was about 2 or 3 o'clock. I said "I have been here since about 11; I haven't eaten lunch or haven't had a drink of water". You know, I was just there and which he told this fellow, said "Can't you let him go; he has been here. He has already given his testimony statement, whatever he is going to give; you should let him go." This fellow said "No, he got to wait in there" so I had to go back in there; about 10 or 15 minutes later, they came back and I went up to the office of Lieutenant Revill and he started asking a lot of questions about the G.I. Forum, did I know such and such fellow--some I knew, they had been in the club. Naturally, I knew them though we weren't intimate friends, some were, some weren't. Then he gave me a bunch of names, I imagine they were in their so-called subversive files that they claim they have; of course, I didn't know a lot of them. In fact, I didn't know most of them. I knew some of the names. I didn't know some of the names they mentioned are kept in their files or not. Anyhow, they asked me--I had to--they didn't ask me--I had to just ask to sign a statement I belonged to the forum and certain members were charter members of the forum and I said yes, I would sign it. I didn't see anything wrong with it so I signed it and they told me I could go home. It was 4:30 or 5 and they asked me if I had a ride home and I said no. They said "Well, we'll give you a ride home, so one of the officers there, plainclothes man, drove me home. When I got home, of course, there were about three or four cars at the house. My wife was all shook up and she said "My God" she said "Don't you know what they been saying about you?" I said "No, I don't know what they are saying about me." She said "Don't you know you been on TV and the news media across the nation saying you are on the so-called list with the Dallas Police Department claiming that you associate with persons of"--see if I can quote it right--I was known to associate with persons of subversive background.

Mr. BALL. That was on TV?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. Who put that on TV?

Mr. MOLINA. It was a statement made by Chief Curry.

Mr. BALL. By whom?

Mr. MOLINA. Chief Curry and I says "No, I didn't know anything about it. I was just being questioned." They said "Well, did you tell them to release your name?" I said "I don't know who gave my name out, gave out the information." So, they were very concerned because at first, I didn't think it was--I figured they would make a retraction and I would be cleared, so forth and so on and nothing came out on the radio and nothing was said and I called the Police Department and told them I wanted to talk to Chief Curry and they said he was busy. I was talking to, I think someone, fellow named King. He answered the phone and he said any retraction has to come from Chief Curry. I called the Associated Press which released the statement to the news media and they wouldn't give me any satisfaction. They told me I would have to get in touch with some fellow in New York or something like that, so that was--I couldn't get any satisfaction. I was accused of something I didn't know anything about.

Mr. BALL. Did they ever give you a retraction?

Mr. MOLINA. No.

Mr. BALL. Well, now----

Mr. MOLINA. And, consequently, well, that happened on November 23d; my boss was very upset about it. He said that the vice president of the company, Mr. Campbell, they didn't say anything to me, they didn't come to me and say "Joe, we will stand by you, we don't believe it." Nothing was said for about 10 days so I went in and told them, I said, "You don't have to be afraid, I'm going to get this thing cleared. I am going to find somebody to clear me of this." They said "You better do it very fast because the president is very upset about it and we have been getting a lot of calls and several people calling in and saying he hires subversives" and so forth and so on. I saw one letter did say that. It came to them from some fellow said he wasn't going to do business with that book firm because they hired Communists. I knew they were probably under pressure. Well, on December 13, they called me in and said they wanted to talk with me and they told me that due to automation I was going to have to be replaced. That happened in December 13, about 3 weeks afterwards so I told them I said "I don't really think that's the reason why you're letting me go, it's probably because of this other thing." He said "No, we got automation here, we are taking too much business in so we have to let you go." No news was ever given to me there was no machines for replacement, nothing, so I said--well, I didn't leave until December 30 and got all the routine work I had been assigned was gradually shifted to another person. I was there doing nothing. I finally left December 30 and I have received a letter from a friend in California saying my name was in the paper stating that I had been labeled as a communist and I got a call from Florida, from a good friend of mine saying they labeled me a communist and saying I was a friend of Oswald's.

Mr. BALL. Did you know him?

Mr. MOLINA. Oswald?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. MOLINA. No; I had seen him there in the building. I had seen him but never talked with him or been introduced.

Mr. BALL. Where are you working now?

Mr. MOLINA. I am working over here--that's another thing. I couldn't find a job. Who is going to hire me? So I called this friend of mine he belonged to the Dads Club where I go to church, Holy Trinity. His name is Mr. Redman, vice president at Neuhoff's. I called him about a job and he said "No, I don't have anything in your line of work." I happened to mention to him I used to do credit union work and at that time they happened to be looking for a man and that's the reason I found this particular job.

Mr. BALL. You are working at Neuhoff's Employees Credit Union?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Are you a bookkeeper; is that what you usually do is bookkeeping?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you pursue it any further; did you file any actions of any sort?

Mr. MOLINA. I have an attorney that is working towards something.

Mr. BALL. You went to work what date----

Mr. MOLINA. I went to work in February 1947.

Mr. BALL. For the Texas School Book Depository at that time.

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; at that time they were located at 2210 Pacific.

Mr. BALL. Now, November 22, 1963, the place you worked was in the second floor of this School Book Depository Building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes; I was standing on the front steps.

Mr. BALL. With whom?

Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders.

Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly?